Fire Piston

[Martyn]

Browsing around, I came accross a website that sells these...
http://www.firepistons.com (http://www.firepistons.com/)

I'm sure I could make one. Anyone ever used or made one?

Wouldn't one look nice in desert ironwood, highlighted with a bit of cable damascus and mammoth ivory?

[jbaron]

expensive

[Martyn]

Yes, very.

How to make one (found on the web):
----------------------------------------
If you want to try making a fire-piston, I would recommend wood. Here
are some dimensions that will work well: 3/8 inch dia. by 4" deep for
the cylinder hole. The hole must be perfect and true, no score marks
on the wall, no out of round. The plunger (piston) minus the gasket,
should slide freely in and out of the cylinder. The tip of the plunger
has a small reservoir for the tinder. The gasket is wound near the tip
of the plunger and is about 3/8 inch wide, if fitted properly, will
give a popping sound when pulling it out of the cylinder. The gasket
could be made from any natural cordage (cotton, dogbane, linen etc.)
to wind around the groove of the plunger to provide a tight seal
against the cylinder. The gasket is lubricated with grease before use
to give a better seal and decrease friction. The best tinder for the
Fire-piston is Inonotus Obliquus - true tinder fungus that infects
yellow and white birches. In the Philippines, fine hairs from the
inner bark of fishtail palms is scraped and collected for tinder. If
neither is available to you, use char cotton cloth.

It is not easy by any means to make a working fire-piston set.
Everything has to be perfect, the material, the bore, the gasket, the
tinder. If one of them is not right it will not work.
-------------------------------------------

Might just have a go at this.

[Tony]

I will get some photos up so you can see the details, it may be tomorrow though :D It will be pics of the Hunter

[Risingsmoke]

Delighted to see the interest in the fire piston. It is truly an amazing device. As for practical use versus curiosity - are you aware they perform instantly after submersion in water and in high wind?

[Tony]

Delighted to see the interest in the fire piston. It is truly an amazing device. As for practical use versus curiosity - are you aware they perform instantly after submersion in water and in high wind?

I will try this but I doubt it will work after submersion if it were in two bits! :D

[Risingsmoke]

Say, I dont suppose you'd care to wager a blade on that would you? :wink:

[Martyn]

Wahooo - a challenge. :D :D

[Dave Barker]

Seeing as Tone hasn't responded.... does that man his bottle gone?? :biggthump

Seriously though, I'm sure they could be made for cheaper the $60 ( but not by me)

Something for the bushys to consider....

[Tony]

How can you get an ember from wet tinder? And even if you do not have the tinder in it the little hollow would be damp. You are supposed to blow into them to dry them out before you use them anyway. I will try it but not in the next week!

[Risingsmoke]

Clearly, wet tinder will not ignite. However the intended point is...a wet fire piston will ignite dry tinder becuse it relies on compression. Assuming the piston has been closed with fresh tinder inside, the tinder is protected from the elements and will ignite instantly after prolonged submersion. This makes for a rather clever demonstration..

[URL=http://www.firepistons.com/catalog9.0.html]

As for the cost, it is an unfortunate fact that the level of complexity involved in fabrication is not readily apparent - until you have attempted to make one that is... :D

[Martyn]

I would think that getting the internal bore smooth and a close fit to the piston is the hardest part. I would also think, once you have the equipment set up to do it, doing it repeatedly would be pretty straigtforward. A small lathe could turn the pistons to a very precice diameter.

[MushiSushi]

I would think that getting the internal bore smooth and a close fit to the piston is the hardest part. I would also think, once you have the equipment set up to do it, doing it repeatedly would be pretty straigtforward. A small lathe could turn the pistons to a very precice diameter.
There's such a thing as a dowel press which is a hardened piece of steel with a chamfered hole in it, used for making dowels, you place the tool on a press and place a piece of wood cut to size in to the hole and press.. except for maybe polishing you could probably get by with out a lathe. I've got some nice hard, well seasoned fine grained oak ...... maybe i should give it a go ;)

[Tony]

Clearly, wet tinder will not ignite. However the intended point is...a wet fire piston will ignite dry tinder becuse it relies on compression. Assuming the piston has been closed with fresh tinder inside, the tinder is protected from the elements and will ignite instantly after prolonged submersion. This makes for a rather clever demonstration..

[URL=http://www.firepistons.com/catalog9.0.html]

As for the cost, it is an unfortunate fact that the level of complexity involved in fabrication is not readily apparent - until you have attempted to make one that is... :D

You know a lot about these things, I should get you to write an article for my website :D
My original statement was that I doubted it would work if the piston was broken down into it's two parts and then submerged. Even if you put dry tinder in after this it would be hard to get it to ignite. The tinder would absorb any moisture in the piston and the heat generated would get split between heating up the water and lighting (after it had dried it out) the tinder.
Assembled I have no doubt that the fire piston is waterproof because of the airtight seal. Unless you use a few compressive strokes to dry out the piston before expecting it to ignite any tinder.

But hey, I have no idea other than theory as I have not done it yet. It's an excellent point though as it will raise the value of the fire pistons in the eyes of the bushcrafters who see it as a bit of a toy really.

Allan “BOW” Beauchamp rates them very highly as does Mountain Mel and Jonny Crockett from The Survival School in the UK It would be cool if we could get Jeff Wagner to give us a definitive statement on it. From looking about he seems to be the fire Piston Guru.

Does anyone know if there are other manufacturers of the fire pistons?

Anyway, I have waffled on long enough. I'm looking forward to playing :biggthump

[Risingsmoke]

More helpful hints - Oak is too porous. Neither lathe nor arbor press are required and most significantly... the walls of the bore are not parallel.

[MushiSushi]

Hmmmmmm ... Ok . the piece I have is well seasoned and treated and I could stabilise it further to make it completely non porous, even though it's a very dense grained piece of oak and not very porous as oak goes, but what kind of wood would wood would wood would you suggest? hmmmm? and i am assuming that the bore opens out as it goes in to the chamber as the other way wouldn't work at all.

[Martyn]

most significantly... the walls of the bore are not parallel.

Ok, now my curiosity is piqued. I assumed (yeah I know to assume makes an ASS out of U and ME), that there was some kind of chamfer on the entrance, but surely the piston must make a good seal down most the length of the shaft, in order to compress the gas sufficiently to generate the required heat? So most of the tube must be parallel.

Oh, BTW, welcome to the forums. A little late, but.. ;)

[Tony]

Oh, BTW, welcome to the forums. A little late, but.. ;)

Amen :biggthump

[Risingsmoke]

Hmmmmmm ... Ok . the piece I have is well seasoned and treated and I could stabilise it further to make it completely non porous, even though it's a very dense grained piece of oak and not very porous as oak goes, but what kind of wood would wood would wood would you suggest? hmmmm? and i am assuming that the bore opens out as it goes in to the chamber as the other way wouldn't work at all.

Yes, stabilizing is an effective remedy on porous woods. As a diagnostic tip - fill your finished but non-functioning fire piston with water and push the piston in hard. This will enable to you to visually detemine where the leakaging is ocurring. On porous woods it is not uncommon to see the water squirt a stream out through the endgrain pores. Hard to believe but true.

Many hard, dense, closed grain woods will work. Bubinga, Coco-Bolo, Ebony, Lignum Vitae, Bloodwood to name a few.

When boring, it is important to advance the bit very slowly. As the depth increases, the temperature of the bit increases, the bit expands slightly, created a hole that is slightly larger in diameter at the bottom. A hole with reverse taper allows the pressure to escape.

[Risingsmoke]

Oh, BTW, welcome to the forums. A little late, but.. ;)[/QUOTE]

Thank you kindly. :)

[Martyn]

and i am assuming that the bore opens out as it goes in to the chamber as the other way wouldn't work at all.


Hmmmm - unless the bore narrows very fractionally and the piston is parallel, and relies on the compression of the gasket to take up the tolerance. If that's the case, I can see how the tolerances are so fine, it hikes the price up some. But I'm struggling to believe that level of engineering precision is necessary.

[Risingsmoke]

Hmmmm - unless the bore narrows very fractionally and the piston is parallel, and relies on the compression of the gasket to take up the tolerance. If that's the case, I can see how the tolerances are so fine, it hikes the price up some.

Precisely!

But I'm struggling to believe that level of engineering precision is necessary.

Ummm...And, pattern damascus is simply a matter of hammering on hot steel... :rolleyes:

[Martyn]

Ummm...And, pattern damascus is simply a matter of hammering on hot steel... :rolleyes:

Well, if you're implying I'm grosly understating the complexity of these devices, or the skill and knowledge needed to make one - you may be right, I've never made one, so cant really comment.

However, I have read that they can be made fairly easily. I suppose the difference in cost, reflects the quality of finish?

But, if I buy a damascus blade, I know what I'm getting, I understand the process completely and can appreciate the artistry all the more for it. If these devices are so complex, why isn't that information freely available?

[Tony]

Here's a link or two, not much though. It may be worth getting hold of this Jeff Wagner chap as everyone say's he's the man :) Although I expect that if he makes them for a living he will keep the construction a bit close to his chest.

And I think I read somewhere that they were used in the blessed Isle hundreds of years ago, does that make them a home grown item that we have let go? We do that all the time :banghead:

Umm maybe not! The fire piston was developed in Southeast Asia, Indonesia and the Philippines. A fire piston consists of a hollowed tube (originally this would have been made out of wood, horn or bone) that is sealed at one end and lubricated inside (pig or dog fat was popular with early fire piston developers). The second component is a plunger device, typically with a small compartment to hold dry tinder. The plunger should not allow air to escape when it is placed into the bore of the piston, so the device had to be engineered with some precision. Upon depression of the plunger the air in the piston is compressed and, as result of the work done, the air in the piston could reach temperatures exceeding 400 ºC. Dry paper will spontaneously combust at 233 ºC, so the fire piston has excellent application as a source of ignition. A metal fire piston was independently developed during the early 1800's and patented in England in 1807. In 1865 European explorers found the use of the fire piston to be widespread in Indonesia.

The development of the fire piston is linked to manufacture of the blowpipe and it is believed that the fire-piston effect was first observed during the preparation of a blowpipe bore.Operation of the fire piston required some skill, and its use was superseded in Europe as a result of the development of the match.

(http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2001/osullivan/fire_piston.htm)

http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html

And there is some advice here from a JW :D http://www.primitivearcher.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=11&topic_id=7827&mesg_id=7827&page=

[Risingsmoke]

[QUOTE=Tony]It may be worth getting hold of this Jeff Wagner chap as everyone say's he's the man :) Although I expect that if he makes them for a living he will keep the construction a bit close to his chest.

Tone - I believe you'll find him to be a delightful fellow and willing to trade fire pistons for fine cutlery I understand.

[Martyn]

It may be worth getting hold of this Jeff Wagner chap

Tone - I believe you'll find him to be a delightful fellow and willing to trade fire pistons for fine cutlery I understand.

:biggthump ;)

[Tony]

Is it best to contact him through his site? How well do you know him Ringsmoke? Have you dealt with him before?
I don't have any cutlery to trade with him but I would like to ask a few questions of him.

Anyway, I'm off to cut some wood :D

[Risingsmoke]

You can catch him at email address jeff@firepistons.com or through the site. Ray Mears is also a fan of these pistons by the way. Best he's ever seen, etc.

[Tony]

Cool thanks for the info.

Does Ray use them over the fire steel? Or does he like them the best of the fire pistons he has used?

[Risingsmoke]

Afraid I cant answer that one, Tone. Best to ask Ray directly.

[Tony]

Afraid I cant answer that one, Tone. Best to ask Ray directly.
Will do :biggthump

[Risingsmoke]

Tone - Were you able to get suitable answers to your questions?

[Tony]

Tone - Were you able to get suitable answers to your questions?

He didn't want to know :yikes: I mailed him, called him and sent a pigeon ad all I got was "come back when your worthy" :banghead:

Na, not really :D I have not made contact outside of this forum as yet. It's on my list of serious conversations. I should get onto it though. I will send an email in the next couple of days. I am after an article that explains what the fire piston is capable of, how it constructed, why it works and why it's a good idea to have one. This will be balanced with our review of using it for bushcraft.

What do you think?

[Risingsmoke]

That sounds like an excellent plan. :biggthump

[Kevin]

expensive


I disagree with this...I dont think they are expensive at all.........Go ask your plumber to make one and let him charge his call out fee and hourly rate.....now, THATS expensive :D

Those knife makers present should know how much time and effort it takes to craft something.....and nothing is ever quite as simple as what we think......(thats from experience ;) )..


SOLD.

Kevin :biggthump

[Risingsmoke]

If these devices are so complex, why isn't that information freely available?[/QUOTE]

I see I have neglected to respond to an important comment. The information is not readily available because there are very few people who (1) are aware the device even exists (2) are in posession of the required knowledge and (3) able to effectively apply what they know.

The fabrication of a fire piston is a bit like flint knapping. Its not so difficult - once you know how.... :wink:

[Martyn]

Gotcha, I can see how they'd be a very nice and authentic tool. But as far as useful, or rather useful enough to warrant the expense (albeit on a beautiful object), I think I'll wait for Tony's review and see how they fit into real world wilderness use.

[jim_w]

Interesting thread... Did anyone ever manage to get one working? I'm in the middle of making one myself, but injury has forced me to pause. :(

Does anyone have any tips or links? :)

[Taff Ogri]

I've had one in the makings for a few weeks,
I found that I couldn't drill the necessary surface finish so worked around it. I used a length of 1 inch delrin as a body, drilled out to 12mm and then lined that hole with a piece of plastic air hose, glued in place. This gave an internal bore of 8mm. Then turned a piston out of alluminium, o-ring groove, tip-cup etc.
I have had periods of success, by which I mean on one evening I got 3 good embers, then couldn't get anything for a week, then got some more embers. I just can't get it repeatable yet.
My intention is, once it is reliable, to change individual parts so that the result is an all natural item (wood, wound gasket etc).
Tinder fungus is supposed to be the best in firepistons, but I'm having trouble sourcing any of that.

If anyone comes up with some good tips, then post away so we can all see.

Ogri the trog

[Schwert]

Jeff Wagner is a member at BCUK and generally responds to just about any firepiston thread.

He posted a super design about a year ago over there...a Bushcraft model with a tinder compartment in the piston top and a lanyard collar. It was a good discussion and I will go see if I can find the link.

I ended up ordering this model and expect it very soon. I am not absolutely certain if I would classify these as a fun toy or more into the firesteel...unlimited fire sort of devices.

I think it will definately be fun. Off to find that link....

Here it is..

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=3028&page=1&pp=10&highlight=firepiston

Page 5 has a photo of the Bushcraft (post #44) and the collar device can be seen in this image from Jeff in a buffalo horn model. The collar allows a lanyard to be placed around the fire piston and is slipped on for carrying therefore not requiring the piston to be bottomed in the chamber for storage.

http://img37.exs.cx/img37/5083/FirepistonCollar.jpg

[jim_w]

Yeah, Jeff's pistons are really lovely. If I win the lottery then I'll be buying one, but for now, I think it's going to have to be homemade. :P

I've started with a peice of brass tubing, and carved a wooden piston with a groove for O-rings. I haven't got a supply of bush-y sort of tinder, so I've been using newspaper... Unless anyone's got any bright ideas, I'll have to start making some charcloth for the next try.

Anyone with a working piston: any idea how much compression it should be acheiving? Any well to tell, like how far back out the piston pops?

[narsil]

you should be a ble to work out the compression ratio from the diameter of te bore and the stroke of the piston (how far it travels from top to bottom). In fact it should be the raitio of the distance from the bottom of the bore to the face of the piston at the top and bottom of the stroke.

The typical compression ratio of a diesel engine is about 15:1 which achieves ignition of diesel fuel so I woudl think that might be the right sort of general area.

[Taff Ogri]

Anyone with a working piston: any idea how much compression it should be acheiving? Any well to tell, like how far back out the piston pops?

Jim,
The calculated ratio matters not a jot - you fire piston either works or......needs modification ;)
Mine pops back out to within about 1/2 inch of where it started. I'm guessing that this is OK, considering friction and any bore inperfections will be at the open end.

Charcloth is easy to make, visit BCUK and look for "alternative charcloth tutorial"

ATB

Ogri the trog

[EdgarFigaro]

Just learned about these via a post on the Bladesmith's forum, doing searches brought me to my other home, here!

So I'm liking the idea of it, seems like it'd be fun to build.
My question would be suggestions for polishing the bore.
Or would a drill press running at top speed, boring out cocobolo produce a pretty smooth surface?
Thinking it'd be fun to turn one for fun.

[Jeannius61]

Taking up the challenge, I spent five and a half hours tring to make a very basic one last week. Result - one scorched piece of shaving from a piece of box wood (that's what I had been turning the day before and they were lying around) at the bottom of the tube. I was using some cotton string and vaseline as the gasket, but the bore was not perfect as my new lathe was slightly out of true still (frustrating that).

So I modified my cylinder by using two pieces of brass tubing which just fit inside each other and tried again. I think I still need a better seal in the bottom of the larger tube, and the small tube needs a better seal inside it too - as while I can get a 'bounce' back of about half an inch, that is all I get, and that is not enough to create the pressure required for the heat.

What I had to show for it at the end of the hours was one bruised hand and a desire to keep going until I get it right. Is anyone else up for the challenge to see who can make one that works?

Jean

[a6cjn]

Taking up the challenge, I spent five and a half hours tring to make a very basic one last week. Result - one scorched piece of shaving from a piece of box wood (that's what I had been turning the day before and they were lying around) at the bottom of the tube. I was using some cotton string and vaseline as the gasket, but the bore was not perfect as my new lathe was slightly out of true still (frustrating that).

So I modified my cylinder by using two pieces of brass tubing which just fit inside each other and tried again. I think I still need a better seal in the bottom of the larger tube, and the small tube needs a better seal inside it too - as while I can get a 'bounce' back of about half an inch, that is all I get, and that is not enough to create the pressure required for the heat.

What I had to show for it at the end of the hours was one bruised hand and a desire to keep going until I get it right. Is anyone else up for the challenge to see who can make one that works?

Jean

Jean, you have probably seen this:
http://www.onagocag.com/piston.html

It's an interesting article and it has some diagrams which may help
And have a look at the perspex one that works under water

Chris :)

[Schwert]

Darryl Aune has a very good DVD on making firepistons. From simple brass tube types to turned wood versions. It is a good production with excellent skills demonstrated.

Some of his pistons along with one from Wagner can be seen in an article I did with a friend.

http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=320

A very simple and inexpensive firepiston using a metal tube supported in a wood handle can be had from EB Primatives. These work very well, not as nice looking but certainly easy and affordable.

The friend I did the Aune article with wrote up the EBPrimative versions:

http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=284

I find firepistons to not only be fun devices to use but quite reliable too.

I have been able to dry damp tinder in them. A couple of compressions can dry the tinder fungus to the point that it will glow on the next compression.

I still use these more for their amazement factor, but with decent tinder I find them as useful as traditional flint and steel.

[Jeannius61]

Thanks Chris, I found that one which is what set me going in the first place...

Thank you Schwert, I see from the pictures that he makes a much longer gasket than I did. Part of my problem was the gasket kept shifting. Also - I didn't know about the beeswax. Good idea which I am now going to go and try. I am going to try and make one with an o-ring, but wanted to finish with one that was not dependant on people-made things to repair...

I will go and try again.

Anyone else out there giving this a go? Or is it just me this time?
Jean

[a6cjn]

Has sparked my interest (forgive the pun)
Tha article describes one that has a brass tube glued inside and O rings on the plunger.
Bit against the tradition but I would imagine it's the most effective way of forming a seal.
I would have thought waxed thread with a touch of vaseline would be effective and I was wondering if lignum was used, that it would provide a very hard, stable cylinder.
Look forward to see what you come up with
Chris :)

[Taff Ogri]

- as while I can get a 'bounce' back of about half an inch, that is all I get, and that is not enough to create the pressure required for the heat.

Jean

That sounds susspiciously like the final chamber size is too large. Maybe try trimming the top of the cylinder (or piston for the tinder cavity) or put solid packing in the bottom of the cylinder. You can test it by removing the gasket and feeling for the solid bottom of the cylinder.
A good test to see if there are any leaks is to assemble eveything and hold the compressed piston under water - look for bubbles. Or fill the cavity with water and check that you cannot compress it - if you can, it must be going somewhere.
I've made four now with varying degrees of success and given them away as gifts. Maybe its about time I started making a wooden one - I know the trick is to drill the cylinder very very slowly and polish off the corners of your drill so you dont get bore marks!

ATB

Ogri the trog

[ubermeister]

Have you seen these? (http://www.firesteel.co.uk/firepiston.htm) £28, and they're in the UK.

Anthony

[Jeannius61]

Thanks for your input Taff Ogri -

I will try the underwater bit and (probably confirm my suspicions) see where the air is going.

I will also fix my drill bit. I realised the problem with the wood chamber was a lathe head which was out of true which is why I inserted the brass tube - I suspect the glue seal between the chamber and the tube is not air tight, and that is where the leakage is going. I actually need to make a new one from scratch and try again, but haven't had time in the last few days.

I do have a few pieces of lignum Chris, but would rather try to get the making side a bit more polished (so to speak) before I waste good wood.

I will win, eventually.

Anthony, thanks - I had. For me the challenge is to make more than one, and do it consistently, PLUS be able to make it work consistently.

The fun is in the making and figuring it out.

[mrAndre]

My wife got me one for Christmas off ebay. Around $40 from the US. Works great. I liked this Fire Piston (http://survivaltoolsblog.com/fire-piston-only-real-men-use-it.html).