Leather Handle

[Quickbeam]

Does anyone have any experience in fitting a leather handle to a knife? I have an Estwing hammer with a leather handle that is really comfortable to use. The only knives I have seen with a similar hand are the Fallkniven NL knives. I like the look of the NL5 and would be pleased if I could make something similar.

Does the tang need to be a particular shape? Which leather and glue would be best?

Nick

[Kevin]

Does anyone have any experience in fitting a leather handle to a knife? I have an Estwing hammer with a leather handle that is really comfortable to use. The only knives I have seen with a similar hand are the Fallkniven NL knives. I like the look of the NL5 and would be pleased if I could make something similar.

Does the tang need to be a particular shape? Which leather and glue would be best?

Nick

For stacking leather on a handle, hard sole leather is said to be the best........I have made a couple of stacked handles and they are no more difficult (IMO) than other handle designs. Try to compress the leather as tightly as possible when using epoxy.....Some place the leather spacers on the handle then use a clamping system to squeeze it tight..or have a screw on pommel cap as part of the design.

Finishing the leather needs some attention...after shaping (same as soft wood, use a rasp or belt grinder and paper), go thru all the various grits of paper up to a 1000+....and wet the leather to raise the grain (as in wood) so it will give a smoother finish. Using a water based dye is good for this, as well as dying it.
........dry and wax.

There are a lot of knives made with leather handles, some include other materials in the spacing. Take a look at Marbles knives or William Scagel designs which are the classics.

The tang doesnt need to be a particular shape, much the same as a wood handle.

[Colin KC]

Nick,

I don't know many that have done a stacked handle, but for a guide, use a glue that you can soak the leather in (after cutting roughly to size & drilling/punching the tang hole) & then use a piece of allthread with large washers to squash the leather (do it in small batches of 5 or 6 pieces, then large washer, then 5 or 6 more etc etc)

Then do the final fit with your small stacks & use a fresh piece (or couple) between each stack to encourage the mating surfaces to match;)

Tang doesn't need to be a particular shape (but round wouldn't be too ideal;):P)


Hope that helps

[Colin KC]

Kev posted while I was typing:rolleyes:;)

[Dave Budd]

I've done a few stacked leather jobbies (http://www.davebuddknives.homestead.com/OldTimer.html and http://www.davebuddknives.homestead.com/jimsbowie.html) and like Kev says, they are no more tricky than any other stick handle (in fact they are easier in many ways :) )

A few things I've noticed:
1)Good stiff leather - I use the same veg tan as my sheathes, but old fashioned sole leather is good too NOT soft chromed stuf
2) use slow setting epoxy, preferably warm (helps it soak into the leather a bit)
3) often worth dying the leather before cutting the bits to fit the tang (helps retain coloyr if epoxy soaks a long way in, also some dyes stiffen the leather a bit)
4) you get through a surprising amount of glue when applying it, but lots also squirts out under pressure
5) good solid ends to the handle, I only use metal here now after craking wood and antler under the pressure
6) DO NOT soak in oil to protect the handle it can dissolve some glues, I tend to use PU sealer and rub over with wire wool for a soft feel or soak with thin CA and rud with fine grit paper/ wire wool for a hard finish

I use and modified bar clamp but I think its worth buying/making a proper jig at some stage (attleboro's have started selling one I see :rolleyes: , but not cheap :mad: )

they're easy, go for it :D

[Tiffers]

Now I know what to do with that sole bend M and I were wrestling with yesterday when sorting out our storage unit! :D

Looks like I might have to find a suitable blade once I have finished all the other projects I have planned!

Just one comment, sole bend is a pig to cut by hand. If anyone has to do this then soak the leather first. It goes from being absolutely solid to much more manageable.

Tiffers

[Stuart Ackerman]

I have said this before, BUT....
when the handle is shaped, pour superglue over it to soak in..leave for a day... pour more superglue...leave for a day...till there is a gloss finish over the leather. might take three coats, might take 6... do not handle the finish between coats. Sand smooth with 200 then 600 grit..waterproof and durable...

[Basemetal]

Question...
If you use the superglue or epoxy soak methods, doesn't that leave you effectively handling polymer rather than the leather? If you want a leather handle for grip when wet (due to the porosity) and you want to build up a leather patina over time, doesn't the leather have to be unfinished on the outside like one of the Ka-Bar, Camillus or United Cutlery USMC knives?

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-064.gif

[eraaij]

I recently finished a user-puukko with a leather handle. I found the material very nice to work with. Just make sure you have a solid start and end to the handle and use lots of epoxy gluing the bits together:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~eraaij/puukko/finished_puukko.jpg

Since the picture was taken, I took a bit more out of the handle. The big advantage of leather is that it is very easy to shape (I used a file for rough shaping) and that it is very comfortable to use.

-Emile

[Stuart Ackerman]

Question...
If you use the superglue or epoxy soak methods, doesn't that leave you effectively handling polymer rather than the leather? If you want a leather handle for grip when wet (due to the porosity) and you want to build up a leather patina over time, doesn't the leather have to be unfinished on the outside like one of the Ka-Bar, Camillus or United Cutlery USMC knives?

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-064.gif

I was asked to refurbish a Vietnam era Kabar..I did not want to remove the leather, even though the owner did...I tried the superglue method as an option, removed damaged portions of the handle, and the owner has been happy ever since. I have done at least 6 more knives, and everyone uses them often. I do not own a knife treated in such a manner tro know how durable, ergonomic, etc it is, but I have treated an old Estwing Hatchet, and it is grippy, and durable.

[Basemetal]

Thanks Zack,
Still wondering how differently it feels, behaves, ages....anybody?

Danny

[Dave Budd]

I do my roughing out on the bansaw, even cutting the sole bend up first!

[Quickbeam]

Thanks to all for the advice, I'll have a go with epoxy and I like Colin's idea of doing it in smallish sections. Can anyone recommend a good source of leather? I'd like to make a sheath as well, I've looked at the websites you've reccomended in other threads but wasn't sure what to order, am I looking for veg tan leather 3.5 - 4mm thick?

Nick

[Tiffers]

Nick, if you check out www.leprevo.co.uk (then click on 'leather' then 'leather hides') you can get sole bend (which was mentioned further up in the thread as being suitable). They seem to sell it in fairly small amounts, just enough to do soles for a pair of shoes. Should be a good amount to use to have a go at a leather handle.

Tiffers

[Dave Budd]

Laprevo are good but I mostly deal with Batchelors, they are the cheapest around and depending on who you talk to are very helpful. They also have an offcuts box that you can get bits from

They are based in London, Culford Mews but since I live in Devon I phone them on 020 725 42962

[Stuart Ackerman]

Danny...go to a hardware shop...pick up a leather stacked handle Estwing hammer or axe...Superglued handles feel the same in temperature, and hardness. Superglue dries and leaves a plastic behind, so all you are doing, is putting a deep coating of plastic on a handle. Boiling the handle, or leaving the knife, axe, etc, in water for longer than a month, and the superglue will start to lift off.

[Stuart Ackerman]

AND if you do not like the effect of the superglue, soak the knife, axe, etc in acetone overnight, and all the norty superglue will dissolve...leave to dry for a few hours, and oil or varnish the handle as you want. :)

[Basemetal]

Thanks Zak,
I've had and used stacked leather handles before...un-superglued ones though. A Camillus USAF Pilots survival (The blade of which I incidentally incinerated while trying to carburize it to increase edge hardness) and one of the J Rodgers or J Nowills sheath knifes that every British urchin had at some point in the seventies...

I guess superglued leather feels like superglued wood...ie a bit like superglue.

[Stuart Ackerman]

...more like......superglue, I guess, but.....only slightly.

[Mr_Yarrow]

So...if I were to make a stacked disk leather handle, I would need the tang to be full lenght, not half. Would this;

http://www.brisa.fi/112h.jpg

and this;

http://www.brisa.fi/105h.jpg

be suitable?

If so, I assume I would use this;

http://www.brisa.fi/ferr3.jpg

to slide upto the blade/tang juncture. What would I put at the butt end? Can I get one of these;

http://www.brisa.fi/554N.jpg

make the whole the right size for the end of the tang to poke through and then peen the end?

If you cant guess already, I want to put a stacked leather handle on a Brisa blade, am I on the right track?

Ta

[Basemetal]

I think you need something beefier than the thin spacer and the hollow ferrules you've shown. Solid wood or antler pieces mounted from the tang side would be better. Assuming your leather is compressed and glued and the slots are well sized you might get away with just peening the end of the tang, but usually a threaded and screwed fiting is used with a fully leather handle. A Helle end-button might work, especially over a shaped wooden cap.

What you could do quite easily is make a birch handle with substantial number of leather inserts like the Helle Harding. But a fully stacked handle relies on hefty end fittings. Have you had a chance to examine a stacked handled knife?


The tang on the first blade looks a bit short for this treatment.

[Basemetal]

D'oh! See Eraaj's knife earlier in this thread! I forgot the pic was there...

[Dave Budd]

most of mine have been peened, though I clamp mine under high pressure while the glue sets and i cut the hole in the end plate under size so it really is a force fit and wont shift when the clamps are released. I don't know how much pressure I put on but its probably about as much as a 4" record vice tightened with a 2" cheater pipe on teh tightening bar. so enough to hurt if you got your ******** trapped

[Mr_Yarrow]

The tang on the first blade looks a bit short for this treatment.

I have a feeling the tang is longer and the picture has cut off the end :lol:

But I will be emailing Brisa to ask the dimensions of the tang to make sure.

Rgds

[Mr_Yarrow]

and...what the hell is a helle end button when its at home?

Ta


EDIT: found a piccy - so...i'd have to tap a thread onto the end of the tang, then thread a bolt onto it and shape it, or drill and tap a thread onto a custom button type thingy?

I then screw that onto a more secure end plate - what thickness of metal do people think for the end plate?

I see what you mean about the hollow cap, I am thinking now of a thicker plate and some piece of wood like the very nice pic in the thread.

Rgds

[Dave Barker]

and...what the hell is a helle end button when its at home?

Ta


left hand side of the pic mate

http://www.jjensen.no/web_katalog/pic_katalog/kniver/popup_500/HOLK_1.jpg

[Mr_Yarrow]

thanks dave, thats not what I thought it was. how does it work then?

[Basemetal]

left hand side of the pic mate

The other left, surely...:)

[Basemetal]

and...what the hell is a helle end button when its at home?

Ta


EDIT: found a piccy - so...i'd have to tap a thread onto the end of the tang, then thread a bolt onto it and shape it, or drill and tap a thread onto a custom button type thingy?

I then screw that onto a more secure end plate - what thickness of metal do people think for the end plate?

I see what you mean about the hollow cap, I am thinking now of a thicker plate and some piece of wood like the very nice pic in the thread.

Rgds

Tapping the tang is the normal way with heavier knives like the USMC Military patterns. It would work on a Scandi if the full tang isn't hardened. You could also have a transverse pin thro a hole drilled in the tang.

But as I've been thinking about this, the advice I've given until now has been based on using raw or half tanned leather that needs to be tightly compressed to overcome the potential for dimensional changes (shrinkage and expansion) during the life of the of handle. But if you plan to use epoxy-soaked leather that has been compressed already then it effectively stabilised and could be treated just like wood. You would do this by making up thin epoxy and clamping the soaked leather in a vice (between polythene covered timbers if necessary) until the epoxy goes off. If this is the case, then a glued (epoxied) end cap madeof wood/antler whatever should be fine. The whole handle block could be treated like a normal scandi handle made up of laminate "of anything".

Danny

[Mr_Yarrow]

It would work on a Scandi if the full tang isn't hardened.

Danny

If it was, (not sure if Brisa's are, will ask that as well), then could I easilly re-anneal it? (if thats the phrase so I could tap it)

I wasnt thinking of stabilising it, I was just planning on pushing the disks together and then compressing them on the tang and then fixing an end piece to keep it all on etc

That why I was thinking of peening or a threaded tang. I think threaded is better as it will give a tighter and adjustable fit to make its fully secure.

Ta

[Basemetal]

If it was, (not sure if Brisa's are, will ask that as well), then could I easilly re-anneal it? (if thats the phrase so I could tap it)


You mean anneal it...and yes, you could. Heat to red heat and let it cool down very slowly. Stick the blade end in water/wet cloth/cucumber to prevent loss of temper on the business end.

[Mr_Yarrow]

BBQ, or blow torch?

Have heard about the cucumber trick before (and the one to do with knives)

ta

[Basemetal]

Blow torch definitely...for more localised heat. A BBQ would tend to heat the whole blade. Try to get the "end of the end" red with as little heat going into the blade as possible, then the slower it cools, the better. You only really need to anneal the cm or so that your going to tap.

[Mr_Yarrow]

ugger, this was meant to post earlier, but didnt. Brisa's reply (darn quick)

Hello Simon

The tang is 130 mm for the 114 H and 115 R blades
and 112 mm for the 102 H.

The tang is hardened. By heating the up the end of the tang with a propane torch the hardness can be decreased.

best regards Dennis

So I reckon that means that I can use either blade for what I want to do. I have asked for the right measurement when I used the word Tang, havent I? What I meant in effect was the bit behind the sharp bit, what you make into a handle. (Getting real technical as I grow older :D )

Rgds

[Basemetal]

yep...that's the tang :)

Good lad, that Dennis :cool20:

[Mr_Yarrow]

So Danny,

(as your doing a good job of answering questions atm :) ), what metal should I use to make the end and the front of the handle? Something fairly thick I assume, as it could have quite a fair bit of pressure on it.

I am thinking of adding a wooden spacer after the metal at either end then starting the leather. Basically like the nice pic in page 1 of this thread.

Ta

[Basemetal]

2mm thick Brass or Nickel Silver would usually be used here as they are readily available, even pre-slotted (Brisa, Attacc). If you have anything thicker and can work with it that would be good too. Mind you -metal isn't actually necessary if you use a fairly dense wood (like ebony, rosewood, walnut etc).

I made a knife I called "odd little knife" and if you look at the sketch of it here you can see how the metal could work with a metal bolster. The Rosewood behind the metal is quite long on this -you could go much shorter like the antler on Eraaj's knife on page 1.

http://www.britishblades.com/photopost/data/500/Odd_little_knife0005.JPG

[Mr_Yarrow]

ta dude