View Full Version : Testing & Reviews...
Well, this should be interesting. For a week or two, we've been beavering away playing with this idea of a testing forum. I hope it'll work out well, we'll see.
To moderate this new forum, our resident knife lunatic, and the Cliff-Stamp of British Blades, Wayne (The General) who will be writing the tech and background aspects of our test knives/products. Joining him to co-moderate the forum, representing the slightly less sanes world of Grizzly Adams, borrowed at considerable expense from Bushcraft UK, Tony, who will be co-ordinating the real world destr... erm testing of knives - you know, actually using them and stuff like that - wierd huh?
........our very own Cliff Stamp or Kliff Stump?
:wink:
Colin KC
20-09-03, 04:30 PM
You mean people actually use knives:confused: should be interesting;)
You mean people actually use knives:confused: should be interesting;)
It's all pretend, like the first man on the moon :D No one really uses them :swordfigh
MushiSushi
20-09-03, 05:34 PM
It's all pretend, like the first man on the moon :D No one really uses them :swordfigh
that was real!!!! ....... the discrepencies in the shadows were purely down to a reflection on the lens :22: :smashfrea
MushiSushi
20-09-03, 05:48 PM
or were they? (http://batesmotel.8m.com/)
Are we talking about testing production knives or handmade as well? I've got some knives I will be finishing soon and it would be great to get some objective test data on them. I think its a great way to improve ones' work.
Thjat ounds like a great idea shing, but if you submit one to be tested, you *must* be prepared for honest criticism - I think it's healthy - I'm guessing you probably do to, otherwise you wouldn't of suggested it. But it's worth noting, I wouldn't want someone to get upset if the reviewer felt the knife had flaws and was honest about it.
I think passing one to someone who has handled a number of custom blades first, then if the knife looks good for field use, pass it over to the bushcraft chaps for testing.
i will donate a knife to test
a small forged skinner
is that ok?
Thats the way it should be Martyn, people like me who are intent on selling their work have to reach a minimum standard to justify offering it to the public. I think as long as reviewers are objective and fair, no-one least of all the maker should fear their findings
Thats the way it should be Martyn, people like me who are intent on selling their work have to reach a minimum standard to justify offering it to the public. I think as long as reviewers are objective and fair, no-one least of all the maker should fear their findings
Absolutely.
As a maker, its important to continualy test your own knives to destruction as well.......Shave, cut, hack, chop , re sharpen, flex and snap the blade to look at the grain structure...... :crying: ( I destroy on average one in every three I make :banghead: ).
but the ultimate is to get the knives out there, get them used for their intended purpose and get feedback.
This will be a good topic.
I am also keen to make something and send it over...be next year though before I get around to it :)
i will donate a knife to test
a small forged skinner
is that ok?Jon, and whoever else this may apply to, before we get too carried away with testing the customs, a test should be of a "sample" of one of your knives. The bushcraft people need to get something back from this as well. They are not really interested in "one off" precision pieces, they want a sample of something that any one of them could buy. So a one off, made for the purpose, kind of defeats the object.
Make a few Jon, of same or similar design, show em on the forums, then send a sample of an average blade to see how it shapes up.
Alternatively, I'm sure the general will be happy to do a test for you, or possibly one of several others I could think of, if you really want a one off testing, in a British Blades only test.
The main idea though, is a joint forum project (at least thats the idea) so the test blades should be something both forum readers would be interested in. Which may include customs (if it were a model that a maker regularly does), but would likely be more appealing to both sites if they were production blades.
That said, the idea is very embryonic, so we'll have to see how it pans out. ;)
It should also be noted, that the blades will be used properly and cared for - used hard, yes, but cared for, not abused.
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 07:37 AM
The thing with ony usig production blades is that every blade is the same.. Doesn't this defeat the object a bit? :crying: . I mean hand forged blades have their merits and minuses too. Although the blades are most often a one off, the smith can always make them after design.
I think that a good idea would be for someone who regularly uses a knife to design a blade, and a shaft. it can then be arranged for it to be handmade, and the shaft design can be tested with the blade.
This way people get exactly what they ask for and can test something that they think will work. There will need to be minor adjustments anyway so in the end we will end up with a knife perfect for general use.
Production blades are not always perfect, but are made by machine, where the margin for error is less.
The thing with ony usig production blades is that every blade is the same.. Doesn't this defeat the object a bit? :crying: . Actually, I thought this was kind of the point.
The purpose of the review is to give information to the reader, regarding the fit, finish and function of a knife. If every blade is different, the review has little value to the reader. It's exactly because every production blade should be the same, that a reader should expect the same or similar performance from a knife, that the reviewer found.
Reviewing custom knives for the benefit of makers, is very different to reviewing knives in general for the benefit of readers. We are primarily interested in the latter.
ok, martyn the handle is very simple sort of tai goo style. carved burl wood with 3 bands of braided palm leaf.
Jon, read my post. The purpose of the forums is not to offer a testing service to makers, though that is possible. The purpose is to offer information to the readers of the site, about knives they could buy. After reading a review of your knife, could 20 people buy one exactly the same or very similar?
Initially, we're mostly interested in production blades and customs from makers who produce relatively high numbers of knives.
However, someone may offer to review or test your knife for you.
It would be easy to make 20 knives the same as this one as there only few components to the knife.
Martyn i belive that a maker, should be able to make a one off and get it tested so that the maker knows what the customer wants in regards to a knife. Also be able to make relevant changes to the knife. I'm just making a hidden tang knife as i know from bush craft uk that they are most useful. if the outcome is good then i will continue to make these knives if not, then it's back to the drawing board/forge.
That's fine Jon, and may be something one of the BritishBlades members may offer to do for you. But please try to understand that the bushcrafters are not interested in your knifemaking development. They want to know about good knives for bushcraft, where to get them from and how much they will cost - the cheaper the better. This puts limitations on the types of knives we can "joint-review". Get it? ;) :D
It would be easy to make 20 knives the same as this one as there only few components to the knife. the blade even has a template.
Then make them first Jon.
sorry did'nt read the topic well
No it isn't Jon.
What we have is 2 sites working together to do something of benefit to both. If you want a bushcrafter to take your knife into the field, test it and write a comprehensive review, the blade must be of interest to the bushcraft community. The review blades must fall into a category that benefit *both* sites. For your blades to be of interest to the bushcrafters, they would have to be made in high numbers.
Like I said, one of the other BritishBlades members, a maker, or collector may well offer to review your blades for you - that's entirely different.
ok thanks martyn. I'll try that, should i ask tony
Jon - give The General a shout
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 10:06 AM
Jon - give The General a shout
I see a call to the RSPCHT coming up ;):D
i would really like some in the field of bushcraft to do it any offers?
I've been following this and agree with all that’s been said.
From our point of view (bushcraft) we are after kit that serves well in the outdoors. The idea of these reviews serves many purposes, but for us, we need to be able to give our readers reviews of kit available to them. If there are makers among you that want to put forward knives for test and review that's great. But, you need to make sure that you can produce the blade in numbers (there might be a demand and the bcuk sites membership is going to start jumping up) If any of you are wondering if your knives are suitable for field use (and can/do produce them in numbers) we can let you know by having a look at them before we review them fully. We will not review a knife that is obviously not suited to the task, only those that have a fair chance of being worth consideration for potential buyers. Production or handmade knives make no difference to us as long as they work :;-)
If some of you want to put forward handmades that’s fine as there may well be a demand for customisable knives……..You really have to be able to make a lot of them though and to the same specs as each other, because there could be a demand, and we need a price off of you before we put up the reviews. Within reason you will be held to this price if you get orders for the knife.
Dave - If you can get blades that are all the same off of your guy and you do all the fitting that makes the knives fairly standard, we want to aim at those knives, if someone approaches you and wants a variation then that's between you and him/her.
i understand now tony thanks
nah i can puncher tins my self. No really that’s a good idea i would really like some in the field of bushcraft to do it any offers?
The testing and reviewing is a bit of a double edged sword for you guys that want to make knives and see a market for them in the bushcraft industry. Let me explain....
First we have limited time and thus we will test knives and post the reviews good or bad on BB and on bcuk. Here on BB you guys are interested in the intricacies of knife making etc, we on bcuk are interested in if it works, the guys on here will be forgiving and give advice etc where needed and you all bounce off of each other and go on to produce better blades. On bcuk we will post up the results of the testing and the reviewing and if it's crap we will say it is and if it's great we will say that as well. The problem you makers have is that in the next month nearly all of the bushcraft industry is getting told about bcuk and that means that there are going to be thousands of people looking at the results of the reviews, that can make or break you as a knife maker within the industry. If you get a crap review 10s of thousands are going to know about it. If we take on a knife it will get posted on bcuk, it's down to you to make sure that the knife is usable. We will not be harsh and we will be fair and if it is good we will take pleasure in telling the world :biggthump
IF you post pic's, specs and price we can say yes or no to reviewing it. The bottom line for all of you that want to put your knives forward is to just be careful and really think before you commit yourselves. If you have a knife that you would like someone to have a look at then the best place is to get someone off of the forum. If you are serious then you can get us involved.
Hope this does not sound too heavy :D
thanks makes perfect sense to me
i understand now tony thanks
I hope the next bit helps the understanding as well :biggthump
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 10:29 AM
Martyn:- In my first reply I mentioned getting a bushcraft bod to design the blade and handle as they want it, and then get t made.. My point is that any smith worth his salt kan knock out blades after design, almost to the mm in size. These arenot factory made, and serve the purpose.
The idea is not for a maker to get a review on his work, but it is for a maker to be able to compete with the factory boys. Lets face it they knock out 1000,s of finished knives a day ( I've been to the factory and I know) Not to mention the fact that they take shortcuts... I'll explian one example in a pm if you are interested.
The factories can alsways blame a machine, of a batch of steel, a smith can't it most often his livlihood, a maker will not take shortcuts either if he wants to become recognised for the right reasons. All I am saying is that a custom maker, deserves every bit the chance that the mass producers such as Helle do! :rant:
TONY: The good thing about a handmade knife is that it can be fitted to the person buying it. Lets face it, a knife has to be comfortably to hold and use, and if every knife is made as standard ( size) then they will not suit everyone. The shape of the knife can be fixed, the blade shape and size can be fixed, the sheath style can also be fixed, there will need to be variation in handle size, why.... because a knife used by you, may not suit your wife, or a teenage girl, and you wifes knife may be too narrow for you to use properly.
If people are willing to buy something that is custom made for them, then most are willing to wait the month or so needed to get it made.
woops wrong reply in wrong forum :-)
indeed also we can add things such as firesteel in the sheath.
Yeah, I understand where you are comming from Dave, believe me, you dont have to wax about the benfits of custom blades. Hopefully, we will review some customs, but like Tony says, from the bushcraft buyers point of view, they could often care less where the knife came from, just that they can get one and it does what it says on the tin. ;)
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 11:14 AM
The point that needs to be stressed here is the knife...... NOT just the blade.
A blade can basically be got from anywhere, and if people want a stainless blade then great. All I am saying is that custom knives are more than the blade. The handle can be formed and fitted specific for the buyer. It only takes a few measurements and one can get started.
The point that needs to be stressed here is the knife...... NOT just the blade.
A blade can basically be got from anywhere, and if people want a stainless blade then great. All I am saying is that custom knives are more than the blade. The handle can be formed and fitted specific for the buyer. It only takes a few measurements and one can get started.I agree Dave, but some knives work better for bushcraft than others. What makes one knife better than another, blade geometry, bevel, steel, size, thickness, handle material & design all play a part. That is the purpose of the review. To see how a knife perfoms in this real world, hard use environment. In order to do that with any meaning, you have to look at a patrticular "model". Whether that model is from a manufacturer, or from a custom maker is not important. What is important (for the bushcrafter), is whether that "model" can be bought by anyone reading the review. Certainly, custom blades will have the benefit of being "tweaked" to a customers particular preference. But we still need to look at a model. Custom makers like Terry Primos and his range are a perfect example of the kind of custom knives that would work well in these joint reviews. In fact any prolific maker, who runs "lines or models" would work well, which is nearly all of em. They do need to be prolific enough, to have an established line of knives though.
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 11:37 AM
"Peroms"? ........ I think you have caught the dreaded baggy fever :D:p;)
edited to add; you edited ;)
edited to add again: you are still missing an "r" there :p
a inexpensive knife which can be used in all situations.
sorry martyn for my harsh words.
i've got the flu i had to work 7 hours in halfords yesterday.
Inexpencive? what is inecpencive? Does any custom makers make knives that can compite with factory made knives?
Trond
when i say inexpensive i mean the £100 mark
It is hard to make knives under £ 100. Unless it is a hobby, and if it is a hobby, it is hard to make series of 20 - 50 - 100 or more knives, it takes time to make them you know.........
here is the dreaded baggy http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p1a23646c414cf14d3746f7285ed22275/fb053f42.jpg no problem mon
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 11:52 AM
when you consider the Woodlore @ £195 and a years waiting list or what ever it is. I'd figure that to be the upper mark of what to be aimed at or under. The Woodlore clearly has appeal and demand at that price ..... but I doubt, considering it's reputation in it's market, that you could get a demand for a knife of a higher price in that market, so aiming for something that slips in below that seems to be the way to go.
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 11:53 AM
here is the dreaded baggy http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p1a23646c414cf14d3746f7285ed22275/fb053f42.jpg no problem mon
LMFAO :biggthump
This is something else that's worth discussing. I personally wouldn't pay more than about £400 for a working knife, but that sum would likely send the bushcrafters epoplectic. As knife entheusiasts were are likely to spend more than those who just want a good tool. Many find the £200 tag for a woodlore difficult to relate. They are not so appreciative of the fact they are buying a custom. In fact, they could probably care less. This is another reason why the reviews section will probably have more of a "commercial" rather than "custom" focus, but there is room for overlap. It has been established that the busghcrafters will pay up to about £200 for a working blade - but they will need a heluva lot of convincing before parting with that sum.
So you see, a joint review section, is not without it's problems. There are clear limitations in the types of knives that we can review. We are looking for blades that will be of interest to both our sets of readers - there is a lot of overlap, but it's not limitless.
The General
22-09-03, 11:57 AM
I am personally happy to look at stuff and give opinions, but with regards to proper Bushcraft I am simply not on the same planet as Tony or Gary! I get by in the wild, can make a shelter, get a fire going and can open a tin of hotdogs with ease!
To be blunt I would rather it stay as joint reviews on the forum. But I am happy to offer private comments etc. I don't want to split the forums intention or upset anyone.
I take it Martyn using big buck knives to open hotdog tins is banned? :slap: :lol: :crying: :biggthump
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 11:58 AM
I agree with most Trond, but..
As someone who makes knives as a hobby myself, it is not hard to make and sell a knife for under £100.
That being said, there will always be a delay factor when the knife is being made.
The factories like helle and brusletto are all automated which means they can turn out thousands of shafts to exactly the same design and dimension a day. For those of us who make them by hand( with little or no use of power tools), and who want to make a livig from them ( as you do) then there is no way on this earth that we can compete with the big boys.
The other thing to remember is that most people in these circles have heard of the main suppliers, and will automatically go for those. People have never heard of you or me, so our competitive chances rapidly disappear.
when you consider the Woodlore @ £195 and a years waiting list or what ever it is. I'd figure that to be the upper mark of what to be aimed at or under. The Woodlore clearly has appeal and demand at that price ..... but I doubt, considering it's reputation in it's market, that you could get a demand for a knife of a higher price in that market, so aiming for something that slips in below that seems to be the way to go.
Seems we were both on the same track with this Mushi. ;) :D
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 12:01 PM
Seems we were both on the same track with this Mushi. ;) :D
just putting a bit of marketing common sense to it ;)
here is the dreaded baggy http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid80/p1a23646c414cf14d3746f7285ed22275/fb053f42.jpg no problem mon
:lmao: :slap: :D
keith_beef
22-09-03, 12:11 PM
This thread seems to be drifting towards the discussion in http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1029 on the new Woodlore made by Wilkinson Sword, and also the idea of a British Blades bushcraft-type knife.
I stand by my idea (similar to what Dave has mentioned in this thread) about hand sizes, and getting finished blades that each of us can make up by adding a made-to-measure handle in whatever materials we prefer.
Keith.
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 12:13 PM
Thank you Keith. I've been feeling very alone here!! :crying:
Dave I know, that a hobby maker can make knives for £100 but can a hobby maker make series of 20 -50 -100 or more knives? i Guess it is more work than hobby then :-) and what about time? When would a hobby maker find time to mess around BB?
Just asking in all humbleness. Jeg mener ydmykhet, har jeg fått det riktig?
Something else to think about. If you are a small maker, and your knife is considered to be over-priced, under quality, poorly fitted, roughly finished, inadequately heat-treated, poorly sharpened etc, then Wayne, Gary or Tony will say so, without any qualms at all. Then 1000's of people will read about it and your reputation as a maker could be harmed severely. This has already been mentioned, but worth mentioning again. The review section of either site has no interest in flattery, it will be honest and absolutely critical. The knives will be tested and flaws highlited. The knives will be assessed by Wayne, representing our side of the community/market and according to Gary's own criteria for a good bushcraft knife. You have no control or comback at all.
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 12:31 PM
Hence, privately arrange to get some constructive crits and get it right first before throwing yourselves to the wolves ;)
I should point out, just for clarity, that the forum can be used for the type of crits mushi mentioned, but a featured review knife will appear on separate web pages on both bushcraftuk and here. Eventually the reviews will form part of the front end website of britishblades and be featured prominently on BUK also. This is why the criteria has to be pretty strict and why your custom blade (if you submit one) shoudl be up to the mark. Waiting times and aftersale will all get commented on. Macro-photos will be taken and flaws in the grind or finish exposed, rather than flattered.
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 12:44 PM
those are the wolves ;)
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 12:47 PM
One learns from critisism. Ask Trond! He slaughtered some of my earlier knives.
Not so now though Trond eh.(hva)
Luckilly I would have no controll over the blade quality as the people I get my blades from are top drawer. They are professional and they know what they are doing!
Secondly, the finish on the knife could be discussed beforehand. I mean a nice shiny and highly polished handle could be dangerous. Now please, I'm not intending to p people off here, neither will I submit a knife for official testing, I am a hobbyist. I have asked someone to carry out a private test on a knife I will be sending though.
I am just adding my 2 pence worth thats it.
Knife making is a hobby... my real work is doing what swmbo says!!
Hey Jon....I would like to see a picture of that knife with the palm leaf handle...post it in the gallery.
I'm not trying to disuade you Dave, I just dont want to see an upcomming maker, get his knife slaughtered, publically for 1000's to see. It doesnt matter who makes your blades, whether it's production or custom, though Wayne might be inclined to give a little lattitude towards a custom maker, Gary certainly wont. Basically, what I'm saying is that unless you are very confident of your knives, submitting it to one of these reviews could do your carrer more harm than good.
I've a wilkinson sword bushcraft knife, in 01, with micarta handles and a production leather sheath on order, it retails for £95 quid. As soon as it arrives, I'll be submitting it to this review. I predict it will likely be the gold standard by which the bushcrafters compare others. Not the best, not the worst, but possibly the best overll for value, efficiency and so on. Wayne may not like it - who knows, the different approaches make this interesting. You have to remember also, that while a bowie knife may be made superbly well, it may get hammered for being useless for the tasks Gary will be putting the blade through. On the other hand, Wayne may love it - it's all in the lap of the gods, with no recourse. I dont mind seeing a production blade go through this purgatory, but seeing a forum member go through it, might be slightly awful.
PS_Bond
22-09-03, 01:18 PM
I'll add my tuppence - I would suggest that in the case of handmades (by members here), it is more appropriate to handle it within the custom cutlery area, rather than limiting it to bushcraft functionality. Of course, I would say that, wouldn't I? :)
We could possibly work up some sort of pass-round for review of fit & finish, general utility - but leave any ABS-style testing to the maker! NDT only...
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 01:20 PM
Like I said, I make knives as a hobby, and will follow this cos it's interesting
I'd still like Wayne, tony or Gary to design a knife that they mean would be the perfect knife. Get someone to make it ( and no I'm not saying I want to make it BTW) then let the others test it.
This way they can see how good their own dsign is.
It's horses for courses you know, some people will not get on with a knife, whilst others do. look at the comment that were newly versed on the woodlaw being uncomfortable and giving blisters.
The problem with makers and revievs, are that most makers are very satisfied with their own work, and what they really want is not critisism, but to be told how nice/good it is, and they intent to get verry pissed of if the judgement is not good. I have beene sending knifes to shows for the last 5 years, and it has not always beene good revievs, but i have learned to take it for what it is, another persons personally oppinion of what a good knife is, sometimes i agree with the judges, and other times they are far out in the fields. (the last part is direktly transaltet from Langt ute på jordet) i do not know if it is the right phrase in english, but i hope you get my meaning :-)
I'll add my tuppence - I would suggest that in the case of handmades (by members here), it is more appropriate to handle it within the custom cutlery area, rather than limiting it to bushcraft functionality. Of course, I would say that, wouldn't I? :)
We could possibly work up some sort of pass-round for review of fit & finish, general utility - but leave any ABS-style testing to the maker! NDT only...
I agree very definitely with that. I dont want to exclude custom makers from this, just highlight the pitfalls for them. For example, I love rustic finish, neo-tribal blades and would pay quite a bit for say, the right Tai Goo blade, but it's very personal. Someone else might think it looks like a lump of battered steel made in someones back yard, wrapped in a bit of old rawhide. Customs have problems competeing with production, not just because of manufacturing techniques, but because of artistic impression. A custom blade is worth more, because it's made by a mans hand, rather than a machine. Even the very best makers may struggle to get the same flawless perfection of a CNC lathe. But that doesnt matter - in fact the idiosyncracies of a custom are part of it's character. But will Gary see it that way? The bushcrafters just want a functional tool and could care less about such things.
The General
22-09-03, 01:37 PM
Martyn has this nailed squarly, an ugly as sin but fantasticly built knife for hard field work would get my grudging respect, but if the final finish was rough and ready like some of Fred Perrins work for example... I don't mean this in a bad way, but I like form & function, well made etc. I accept that Freds work is functional perfection, but rough and ready. Hey thats his intended ethos and I am in no way critical of that!
Martyn chose two quite different peoples, quite different points of view quite brilliantly!
I am the type to gloss over slight practical failings if the design and production/finish are top quality... A collectors and users point of view.
I bet Tony and Gary will not be impressed with any product unless it does well in the field, as it sould be!
Collectors/light users point of view and survival/ bush point of view. It will be nice to find great knives that are well made and superb in the harsh real world of the bush as well as the terrible box opening tasks and kitchen horrors I put mine through! :biggthump
My reputation is being a little blunt at times, if I don't like something, I will howl my dislikes (like a wolf :lmao: ) I will be polite of course but a turkey will get no thanksgiving repreve from me.
The W/S woodlore knife has my interest, I really want to see this and the custom next to each other. Big time interested!
MushiSushi
22-09-03, 01:46 PM
I will be polite of course but a turkey will get no thanksgiving repreve from me.
it'll get *Gobbled* up? ...... :banghead: :rolleyes:
The General
22-09-03, 01:52 PM
:biggthump :doh:
Dave Barker
22-09-03, 01:54 PM
General.. I agree with you.
The finish on a knife is irrelevant when it is designed for hard usage. As long as it is solid, the blade is well fixed and sits well in the hand ( not to mention the blade is suitable of couse) then people should be happy. I for one would not spend loads of time colouring an expensive piece of shaft material and finishing it to a high gloss, for it to be laying around in the mud, opening can of hotdogs :lmao: etc.
The sheath would be simple, plain and nothing fancy. The sheath is afterall a carrying pouch that happens to stop you getting a sharp stabbing pain inyou leg. It should be functional, easy to maintain and waterproof!
the blade would have to be really strong as well.
Hey
just to add that it is possible to get some serious reviews and testing done without getting ones reputation destroyed.. i have been passing around my feeble efforts to friends in the martial arts community .. every blade has come back with one or two pluses and loads of :261: ..
i use this to work on my next effort ... it also gives me an ide of what people are looking for, how different groups use these pencil sharpeners :rolleyes: and what i need to change
the number of :261: has been going down and i know within a year i can get to a point where i would pass a blade out for public review... doing it this way you already know that ther eis a market that have tested and like your work..
just my less than 2c
ugug
btw The hot dog tin slayer is correct.. Fred Perrin's knives are so :cool: that they don't need fit and finish
That's a very good point ugug. I think we'll probably offer some tiered structure to the reviews. There is nothing stopping any member here, to forward a blade on to another member, and that member revierwing it for them. If that member likes the knife and wants to do a more public review, they can post their review in this forum and it may find it's way onto a webpage.
Also, as Peter mentioned, if a custom maker wants an official "BritishBlades" review, then perhaps one of the staff (Wayne, or one of the other mods) could review it and do a write up, again for a web page. I dont see a problem in offering this as well as the full-blown joint BB/BUK reviews.
I think Tony and I are going to get our heads together and put some criteria for submission down on paper for the joint review. I'll probably knock something together for a forum/wesite review too. Then we can post the guidelines in here, so you then should be able to better determine what kind/level of review is best suited to you.
Our (BritishBlades) focus is soley knives, so it makes sense for us to have a lot of scope in this area. Whereas Tony's focus is purely bushcraft and a much smaller range of tools fit clearly into that category.
We'll work something out to bring some clarity into all this.
Hence, privately arrange to get some constructive crits and get it right first before throwing yourselves to the wolves ;)
Yep........
I have a couple of thoughts on whats been said.
I have a feeling that one reason why the Ray Mears knife is so popular is because of the 'marketing' of that particular knife.
Marketing IS everything . The new WS knife will sell really well in the BK community and as Martyn says, is likely to become the 'gold standard' of knives being tested......right or wrong?
I am sure the Ray Mears/Woodlore is is a good practical knife (I want one!).... but is it that much different to other similiar knives that are available and just as practicable, both in cost and performance?.......a well known production knife from our Scandinavian cousins is likely to compare well isnt it? (been there on another thread!)....A BB?BK test would be interesting.
How would the RM compare to a CRK? (by the way...the entire line up of Chris Reeves knives just won an award by Blade for Manufacturing Quality of 2003) ...hopefuly we will find out in due course....
As a maker (full time hobbyist and not a pro maker) I wouldnt want to consider having my knife evaluated IF the expectation was that 100's of readers may suddenly want orders off of me for an identical knife IF it performed well...( a few orders I could handle!).......MOST of all I enjoy making different knives without having any boundaries. I have the facilities and time to have a mini production run if I wanted to BUT making multiple identical knives would be sooo boring and thats not what my personal goals are about.....If I were a slave to (supply and) demand then that would take the fun out of it for me anyway.
(edited cos I was 'rambling' :) )
:nutkick:
Kevin.
One thing I find painful about forums is that you have to read the whole threads to get an idea, and only an idea of the discussion, so, what is it about testing?
Are you going to promote testing "a la Cliff Stamp", basically "scientifically" testing a knife under controlled simulation conditions, like cutting hemp rope and chopping 4x4 ?
Or promote real life tests that talk about using a knife (and I should not need to add in real life, if I was not on the net), and telling in a totally unobjective and prejudiced manner what you like or do not like. Letś face it, we more often use a knife for cooking tasks, cutting cardboard or carving wood than for stabbing trough car doors or chopping concrete.
I admit I am in favor of the second, as I think that the first option forgets about something important, the user. The user is the most important think about testing a knife. For the same reason that I can read as many good things about country music as one can write, I will never come to like it, so I'd better read appreciations from someone that I know does not like country.
My very prejudiced opinion about knives culture among knife nuts nowadays, is that most of it is marketing, the rest is fashion, and only what is left is real usefulness. Wether you note a knife 0 or 10 on a knifenut appreciation scale is irrelevant to the common of people, as most knives sold by today will suit them fine.
The same thing goes for the search of the ultimate edge retension. Edge retension generaly goes with difficulty to sharpen, and could be contested. You can get a relatively soft edge go almost as long as a very hard edge, by just steeling (burnish to be precise) it more often (provided you do not cut brick), and it hardly takes more time. But most of the "scientifical" do not take this in consideration, as they test from sharp to dull, without intervention. Again a case of slightly unrealistic testing.
Ergonomics are also tied to how someone uses a knife. I live scandi grinds without a guard, some people cannot stand them, who is right ? Well I am, for myself and they are for themselves. ;) (addes the second to be polite ;) )
Sorry, did someone mention testing? :D
Boy you guys can talk a lot, lots of :banghead: and :swordfigh and :crying: :nutkick: :smashfrea :rant: :tapedshut
:D
Way too much to comment on. Let us take on the first few knives, which are already arranged, and we can get on with them. From this we can see how it all works and iron out any problems we come across with how we’re dealing with things.
Martyn and I will get up the criteria that any and all knives will have to pass to be considered for review. These criteria will be unbendable if you have a knife that fits into it then put it forward for consideration. The onus is on you to make sure it is. Any of you that want to put a knife forward have to do the groundwork yourselves. If you only make one off's tough, it will not get reviewed. That does not exclude custom makers as some seem to be implying, Alan Wood would make me the same knife as the woodlore but a bit smaller for my wife and with different handle material. But, that would be a request, the knife he would put forward for reviewing would be the woodlore, people would read the test and approach him to make something based on it but different, the key here is that the test would be on the woodlore, a large scale custom production knife.
Hope that was clear :D
If you do not have a product that passes the criteria we put up, tough, no arguments, no hard feelings it's just how it is. Down to you to sort it out and position yourself where you want to be.
Like I said at the beginning, give us some time to get it up and going, we have knives to review for the next few months. Use that time to your own advantage whatever that is.... When the criteria are up and we have done some of the reviews we will have a well oiled process, well defined and hopefully the start of something really good for all of us :biggthump
Sounds good to me Tone. ;)
Dave Barker
23-09-03, 08:59 AM
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN REMOVED BY ME.... COS I GOT THE WRONG END OF THE STICK. the rest stands as it is.!! Dave
Production knives are made by those with the time and money to invest in the equiment to make one knife exactly the same as another, with no room for human error, or " artistic impression" for want of a better word. Just like helle nd brusletto, ( as I mentioned yesterday they do take shortcuts... strange how no one wanted to here about those really :rolleyes: ) If they get a bad review from 100 people, there are plenty of others who will not listen.
If people want a professional knife then they must pay the prices that are being asked by the people who make them in there hundreds.
Maybe people think that I am whinging unnesseccarily, well that is up to them. the forum is open for discussion is it not?
Just an opinion right or wrong
Dave, Tony probably isn't as versed in nuances of custom knife semantics as a maker. If you mean this
"large scale custom production knife"
I dont think it's fair to pick holes in his language. Yeah it's a contradiction, but the intent is clear. He simply means a custon knife that is produced as a run, line or model. If you need an example aside from the Alan Wood "woodlore" knife, you could look at a Terry Primos "El Camino" or his drop point hunter. I dont think anyone would deny that Terry is a custom knifemaker, but you can buy an El Camino and be pretty sure of what you're gonna get. Some makers may not want to make large numbers of such similar knives. That is their choice, but they will be unsuitable for this test. Further discussion on this is just playing with semantics.
It's simply not going to be possible to open up the joint review to makers of highly individualistic blades, so either we go with this as described, or we can the whole idea.
As has been said, many times already, we can do a British Blades only review for individual custom knives, that may be more appropriate for yourself.
Here`s an idea:
Just let Bushcraft do the testing of serie produced knives.
We can organice a knife show, where we appoint two or three members that judge other members knives. We can set a date, and all who wants to, can send one of their one of a cind knives to the judges. let the judges make a reviev of all the knives, and put it out here on BB.
Trond
I dont want to exclude custom makers from the bushcraft side of the review Trond. If they happen to make knives that are suitable for their readership as well as ours, then why not?
If we excluded customs, we'd have to exclude the Alan Wood Woodlore knife, the most widely used knife in the UK bushcraft community (thanks to Ray Mears marketing). I see no reason why other makers shouldn't have the same opportunities to compete, but they *must* be able to produce relatively large numbers of highly similar knives.
Dave Barker
23-09-03, 11:10 AM
We go around like this again and again, and we are nt going to get anywhere.
I am not meaning to sound perdantic over language or anything else, so if I have offended people then I apolgise in advance.
All I am trying to get across is that smiths like Trond can make a blade after a drawing or a template, we mere mortals who don't make blades can still buy them from these guys.
The problem lies in the fact that a human being makes small errors, they cut the wrong side of a line, the wood splinters or whatever, this is not under their control, A machine can stamp out scales or shape shafts like no ones business 100% identical. Look at Helle/Brusletto/frosts to name just some of the scandi types.
Most makers can then revise the shaft to accommodate the mistake and still end up with a fantastic knife. The problem being that it may differ from the one before. Now, if the blade is the same, the materials are the same, the size is suited to the user, but it differs slightly in finished shape from the guy next door.... What is the problem???
I think that there is an awful lot of emphasis on "standardizing" the shape etc. This leaves no room for maneover and hence closes the tests for those who make "one offs". Remeber now that the shaft is a one off. We can buy as many blades of the same design as the smith can make. It is after all the blade that most are interested in, and whether or not it can stand up to the rigmoroles of heavy usage. A shaft made, finished and fixed properly will outlast the blade anyway.
I have already said that I will not be taking part in this testing anyway, but of all the knives I have made and sold I have never had a knife returned to me as yet.
I reiterate a point made by trond. If a person is making the same style,shape,size and colour knife time after time, then this takes away the fun in making them.
As I said, I'm not meaning to be difficult.....but if the design of the knife is so important, then why is there not a bushy ( nice nickname eh???) willing to design the blade and shape of knife, get it made with materials of their choice, and put it to the test. If this is done, then I think that reviews of others knives will hold more credability and not be seen as nitt picking.
I've said my bit, and will not contribute to this thread more...
BTW if 10-20-30 knives are going to be made over the same lest, it is serieproduced, and i do not see why anybody should feel left out, it is just the criteria, and for those who want to participate under these criteria GO ON! For us others that make more or less unique knives each time, we have to get somewhere else to be revied. I do not see why this is a problem.
Can we draw a line under this one now? as we just seem to going round in circles with it. :why: :D
You're missing the whole point Dave, we're not trying to discriminate against custom makers.
Look. Tony runs a bushcraft website - he's not interested in offering anyone free marketing opportunities, or standing for the cause of the small knifemaker. He has a very simple remit - to review gear or products that are suitable for doing the tasks at hand and present the information to his readers.
One knife, is not the same as another knife, one model functions differently to another. Why do Helle have such a "range" of models? They mostly have "similar" blades, "similar" handles, they are clearly scandi but they offer distinct models. What you are saying is that one scandi knife is pretty much the same as another. That is not true. They are different. Do all the knives you have ever made, function and feel the same in your hand? Of course not. Would a review of all your knives produce the same results and opinions? Of course not. Are your knives the same as Trond's? Basically the same blades and design - right? Wrong. It's the subtelties in design, shape, balance, fit, steel, temper, function, sharpness etc, that make one distinct from another.
Unless you can offer a standardised model, with a high degree of similarity, a review of one of your knives would be nothing more than a review of *that* knife alone. The information presented to the bushcraft reader would not be transferable to *all the other knives you make* - it just doesnt work like that. If one Spyderco recieves a good review, does that mean that all models are good for that task - no. As far as you are concerned, a sample of your work might stand as a reference for your abilities. For a custom knife collector, that might be enough, but for someone looking to buy a product that does a particular job (a bushcrafter), it's wholly inadequate.
I really am struggling to see why you have so much difficulty understanding this. We are constrained by what we are trying to avhieve with our websites. We have much greater scope foor such things on BritishBlades than BushcraftUK, but, we want the expertise of the bushcrafters doing the testing. So we come to a compromise. We organise testing of knives that will be of interest to *both* our communities. You may like to have one of your knives reviewed, but it just doesnt fit into this remit. I'm trying my best to explain it, it's not about descriminating, it just wont work the way you want it to. This surely cant be that difficult to understand? http://www.britishblades.com/forums/images/smilies/banghead.gif
Anyway, I think this particular horse, has been well and truly flogged into the grave. The guidelines for custom makers submitting a knife for review will be put up in due course.
Can we draw a line under this one now? as we just seem to going round in circles with it. :why: :D
Yes, we can indeed.
Yes we do bagman, but it is kinda fun though :-)))))
Yes we do bagman, but it is kinda fun though :-)))))
your ideas of fun are the not the same as mine Tornd, perhaps it is because the booze is so expensive up there :D
MushiSushi
23-09-03, 02:03 PM
Boy this thread has sparks coming off of it :yikes: . I think it will all sort it's self out and find it's own level naturally, with a bit of common sense. I think Martyn just wants to make sure no one gets hurt over it, but having been warned, it's now up to people to make their choices and live with it.. and i ain't going to lose sleep or hair ;) over it. I'm a few months off 40 and still got all mine and intend on keeping it ;).
There's a market for production knives and clearly a limited market for custom knives within the bushcraft community, anyone that knows anything about knives to want a custom knife is going to appreciate that it's a 1 off or limited run and not expect huge numbers to be made, it'll handle itself. If a custom maker wants to put a knife up for testing then that's fine, although it sounds like he better make sure he has thick skin first. It seems obvious that demand will take care of itself. if a custom knife is given a good review and people want them, they will have to be prepared for long waits that is part and parcel of the custom world, I am sure Bushcraft people appreciate this or the Woodlore wouldn't still be so sort after. It's up to the custom maker how he deals with the demand and if he can't deal with it, as long as he is open about it from the word go, then the demand will go elsewhere. Darwinian theory of natural selection :biggthump ... the customer sets the rules and if the maker doesn't match them, then the customer goes elsewhere. There's a lot of people that would like a Woodlore, but the waiting list prohibits it so they go elsewhere and order a Wilkinson ;) ..... me ....... I'll probably just want to have a go at making my own eventually :biggthump
this thread is evil it's turn me into a snarling beast!
As has been said, many times already, we can do a British Blades only review for individual custom knives, that may be more appropriate for yourself.
Yep. That gives the best of both worlds.
I am not set up to do multi identical/similiar knives and its not in my interest to do that just yet....BUT...if I were to hit upon a design or idea that I was comfortable with that was easy for me to reproduce then I may consider submitting it to Bushcraft etc so it can be ripped apart :) .......that option is mine..... ..............................But until then I understand fully where Martyn and Tony are coming from.............................................. ........If I dont fit the criteria then I 'dont fit the criteria'......period. .....I can change that if I wanted to by falling in line with what the criteria is.....pretty simple.
In the meantime, I can consider sending over some of my individual knives to BB members where they can abuse it :D and critique it to there hearts delight.
.....its all in fun (to me anyway)....Any negative criticism on BB isnt going to discredit me because its a learning experience which I can choose to use to my benefit.
I look forward to reading the joint reviews as I know I will learn something and can maybe incorporate those points in my future knives.......who knows,maybe one day I WILL submit a knife for review and I will blow all the competion away :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lol:
Kevin.
The General
24-09-03, 11:42 AM
:lol: Don't make me lock this thread! :p
Give us time people, it will sort itself out I promise. :biggthump
OK, I think I've got the idea of this section (don't want to re-open the can of worms!), but is this an appropriate place for "ordinary" members to post reviews of their own?
I would have thought it was an excellent place to post your own reviews boaty.
If Wayne or Tony disagree I'm sure they will tell me :D
Absolutely boaty, that is the intention, aside from the "official" reviews (I'm not sure of the format yet, maybe a web page with a link in here, maybe a sticky thread - dunno yet).
If you buy a knife and want to comment/review it your self, please, please post it here. ;)
Thanks for the confirmation - I've got an idea or two...
The General
25-09-03, 01:00 PM
I will be doing a review of my soon to arrive Damasteel Mike Lamprey knife (its just not a bushcraft type knife! :p)
I am also working with Mike (review and tech specs reviews) on some very exciting developments in his knife range (for the new year), sounds like he has some amazing idea's comming to fruition that if they pan out will bring his name to the very top of the pile... Its all a bit hush hush at the moment so my lips are sealed! Not to mention early days! I don't think he will mind me saying this. :biggthump
I'm not going to say alot here being a Production knife seller and other outdoor gear. By now most all of you have come to know who I am, most of you have placed orders with me on here for various products and also off the BC site. To those I thank you.
I will get with Martyn and Tony on this and see what I can offer for review if they should want anything out of my bag of goodies. From the sounds of it though they are set for a few weeks.
Though I just returned from my Holiday last night so I am now catching up on a weeks worth of posting.
Reading over the reviews and from a bias point of view I see one thing that many are coming to terms with.
Martyn and Tony have pointed it out already, the reviews will be seen by many. Critisim can be hard to take. Especially when you put alot of pride into your work and then see it destroyed in front of 1000's of eyes over the years to come on a board or a archive. It can build a person or break them and destroy a hobby. Like many have said the big time production knife makers have the money to back it, they can just roll out a new model or revise a production run. If you want your knife reviewed for maybe the possibility of maiking more to be sold and fund your Hobby you may want to make this a point with the "Reviewers". If you want to make it to be sold on a regular basis then you should make this a point as well. Both should be graded on the same level, but a note placed in the review that the maker of the knife asked for it to be reviewed for their own well being and gain or that they wanted it for review for marketing purposes.
When you get into the world of bushcraft and everyday use these people are going to want a product that is comfortable to use. Also many will want something within a price point to meet their needs. Martyn and Tony pointed this out. The General pointed out that he didn't care if it was ugly, that as long as it served it's purpose that is what he liked to see. Others pointed out that a knife you may submit into review, you should keep in mind it needs to be something that you can make over and over to the same level of quality in case it takes off like a wild fire in the brush.
The world of review is a very hard thing to do. You need years of expertise in that field and have handled many different items of the same class to then review and compare it to another. The un-biased ability to do it, even if you have to slaughter a friends product and at the same time praise someones item that your not so keen on. So for those of you going to attempt this a Hats off to you.
I as a seller read reviews on hundreds of items. This determines what to sell. At the same time I have to take in account my buyers may read the same. Someone said that marketing has alot to do with it (forgive me the name lacks in my mind)...they are correct. A good review will be better than any marketing presentation that can be created. All companies are going to point out the up side to any product. No company points out the downfalls. That is where the reviews come in (or the competition points this out when comparing their product to others). When the downfalls are greater than the up side then that product has the great potential to do a belly flop and the company a slap in the face. Also remember that a review can change down the road as the item is used more and more and something that may have slipped past the initial review may crop up as time passes.
So to all give it your best. Look at it from both sides of the market (both as user and a reviewer/buyer). Ask Martyn, Tony, and The General for a list of what they are going to do a review on. Then let you imagination and skills take you from there.
Ok.. off to read the other post and forums.
Cheers,
Joe
Dave Barker
29-09-03, 07:27 AM
The most sensible answer on the whole thread... Where were you when tempers flared lasr week Joe!!?? :lmao:
I thought that you would`nt contribute to this thread anymore Dave? LMAO
Dave Barker
29-09-03, 09:02 AM
[Ok I'll remove the word General.... The person who needed to see it has!!! It really wasn't a swear word ( well not much anyway)LMAO
I'M NOT, BUT I JUST MADE A COMMENT ON A VERY SENSIBLE ANSWER!!!!!!
MushiSushi
29-09-03, 09:07 AM
Calm down Dave, Calm down ... I do hope that isn't a norwegian swear word and you are getting around the censors ;):p
The General
29-09-03, 09:15 AM
Please try to keep the posts to English people or at the very least post a translation in English. Its not easy to moderate a forum when my ignorance prevents me understanding the words... :wink:
Mushi, of course it is not a swear word, that is my sekond name. KØDD means ****. Ive beene called that before, Cant understand why though :rolleyes:
The most sensible answer on the whole thread... Where were you when tempers flared lasr week Joe!!?? :lmao:
_____________signature__
Dave
On Holiday of course :)
Joe
Maybe you should mod the mods (and management)
;)
Excellent post BTW
Danzo
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.