Need some kind soul to do heat treament...

[keith_beef]

Please!

I'll be stuck in Paris for the foreseeable future, so I can't do my own heat treatment :-(

I'm making a simple kiridashi from Thunderforge damascus, and would like to find someone capable of doing the heat treatment for me.

It's straightforward stuff; a mix of 1095 and O1, with 8% nickel.

-------------------------------------------------------------
From Brisa's website ( http://www.brisa.fi/heat.html ):

Heating the Blade

The blade should be evenly heated to a bright red/dull orange color. This should be achieved between
1,400 & 1,500 degrees F (760 - 820 C). Be careful not to overheat. Quenching an overheated blade will increase the
change of cracking or warping. Another good method it to heat the blade until the magnetic properties
are lost. To test that a blade is ready to quench a magnet may be used. Once there is little or no
attraction between the blade and magnet the blade will have reached the proper temperature and is ready to quench.

Quenching the Blade

Quenching is performed in either light oil (we recommend olive old with clove - quenches well we find),
or a standard quenching oil. Or use a brine solution (salt & water). Dissolving salt in boiling water
until it no longer dissolves makes a brine solution. The brine quench will make the blade much harder
as it will cool the steel much faster than the oil. The oil quench is well suited to a large blade
where toughness is more needed whereas the brine quench is more suited to the small skinner and folder
blades where holding an edge is important. The blade should be quenched either point first or spine
first in order to minimize the chance of cracking or warping. Care must be taken when quenching in brine.
The quicker the blade is cooled the more likely it is to crack. A good precaution is to preheat the brine
to around 100 degrees F (40 C) prior to quenching.
The oil quench is well suited to a large blade where toughness is more needed whereas the brine quench is
more suited to the small skinner and folder blades where holding an edge is important. The blade should
be quenched either point first or spine first in order to minimize the chance of cracking or warping.

Drawing the Temper of the Blade

Drawing, or tempering the blade is done by heating the steel in an oven. The blade is placed in a heat
treat oven and brought to a specific temperature. It is then allowed to soak at that temperature to
assure a full even heat. The specific temperature determines the relative hardness of the blade.
Below are listed the approximate Rockwell Hardness achieved at the various temperatures.
It should be noted that some parts of all nickel damascus may test somewhat softer due to the
nickel content.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'll naturally pay all postage, and a reasonable fee for the service.


Keith.

[Trond]

I can do it for you Keith
I can do them at the same time as i do my own (blades of course)
I do heat treatment at least once a week.
Trond

[keith_beef]

I can do it for you Keith
I can do them at the same time as i do my own (blades of course)
I do heat treatment at least once a week.
Trond

That's great! Thanks a lot.

I'm not in a great hurry; in fact, I haven't started to cut the shapes out yet!

Send me a PM, to let me know how much you want for the service, or if you want to trade for something.


Keith.

[8thsinner]

Hi there trond, I am not really in the same situation but I am also looking for a someone to heat treat blades when I start making them,
Can you do differential heat treats, with japanesse style hamons?
If you think you could do these for me in the future please let me kow, or if you know someone else that may be able to help I would appreciate it.

[Trond]

I am sorry, i have no clue about anything japanese, I do not any other either.
Sorry
Sorry
And Sorry :-)
Trond

[8thsinner]

Thats okay, I can keep looking.

[shing]

Hi,

I'm going to try to do some Japanese style hamon on some blades I got ready to heat treat. I'll post them on the gallery and see if you like them, if so I'll be happy to do some for you but bear in mind a real Japanese hamon is done on a knife or sword with steel with specific properties and I haven't yet found a steel in the UK that can do this easily. Also water harderning in the Japanese manner results in a failure rate i.e. the knife or sword breaks or cracks of up to 50%.

[MushiSushi]

shing, what are you using for your clay? I've been considering testing this STUFF (http://www.purimachos.demon.co.uk/Sealants.htm) look down the page for Pyruma Flue Cement sealant, I have a couple of tubes bought from BES @ £2-50 a tube. As to the quenching, Colin's technique sounds interesting, a quick dip in a water solution then oil. I found this quench cocktail mix which I might try out some time.


Superquench;
5 gal water
5 lb Salt
32 oz Dawn (blue) dishwashing liquid (28 oz if it says "concentrated" on
the label) 8oz Shaklee Basic H or 7oz UNSCENTED Jet-Dry or other surfactant (like Simple Green) of appropriate quantity for 5 gal mix. The Jet-Dry (or whatever you use for a rinse agent) does something chemically to the surface of the steel. It allows the salt in the mix to start attacking it as soon as it hits the air - make sure you have a LOT of clear water to rinse in ready at hand. These surfacants are wetting agents. They break down the surface tension of water allowing it to make contact with a material. We've all dipped a cold piece of metal in water and seen a bubble-like "skin" form with dry metal under it. This is surface tension trapping a layer of air, it makes a fair heat shield. In a quench, steam will form a similar surface "skin" and prevent full contact with the water, insulating the steel from a proper chill. Wetting agents prevent the "skin" from forming. Detergents do a somewhat similar job, they're emulsifiers allowing oils and water to mix. This prevents any oily residues from the fire from forming a "heat shield" surface layer. The salt in the water raises the specific heat of the water and draws the
heat from the steel faster. Stir it up to get it moving before you quench. Don't quench anything with more than 45- 50 points of carbon. Will harden mild steel to Rockwell 42-45 (in spite of common wisdom that says you can't harden mild steel). It's color coded - when you've exhausted the usefulness of the quench,
it'll shift color from blue to green.

I've also considered an oil, water and soap mix.

[ugug]

hey

Jason Cutter posted about using some sort of liquid paintable refractory solution.. i'm sure with a bit of testing you could get some of the fancy lines seen in high end swords & in Jason's work

the only down side is i can't seem to find it anywhere :banghead:

ugug

[Martyn]

Mushi, interesting stuff about surfactants in your quench mix. I wonder if medical surfactants would work better than detergents?

[MushiSushi]

you're the medical one, you tell me :p ..... as an aside, I remember reading somewhere recently that there had been a recent discovery that you can emulsify oil and water together using centrifugal machines, although I thought that was what I was doing when I made my vinagrette dressing :rolleyes: ;)

[jbaron]

hey guys check this thread out on ckd forums you may find it interesting.
:biggthump


http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15222&highlight=soap+quench

[Colin KC]

hey guys check this thread out on ckd forums you may find it interesting.
:biggthump


http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15222&highlight=soap+quench

I kinda like the up/down thread of Guys on Don Fogg's forum


http://www.dfoggknives.com/cgi-bin/IkonBoard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=36

[Martyn]

you're the medical one, you tell me :p ..... as an aside, I remember reading somewhere recently that there had been a recent discovery that you can emulsify oil and water together using centrifugal machines, although I thought that was what I was doing when I made my vinagrette dressing :rolleyes: ;)


Have a look at this....
http://www.redlineoil.com/redlineoil/wwti.htm

[MushiSushi]

I'm not puttin' that on my wild rocket and baby plums :yikes: !!!!!

[Colin KC]

I'm not puttin' that on my wild rocket and baby plums :yikes: !!!!!


Hmmmmm

[Martyn]

LOL. Seriously though...

------------------------------------------
Red Line WaterWetter® can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surface. Under heavy load conditions, much of the heat in the cylinder head is transferred by localized boiling at hot spots, even though the bulk of the cooling solution is below the boiling point. Red Line's unique WaterWetter® reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles on the metal surface create an insulating layer which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surface can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15% as shown in Figure 2. This figure demonstrates the removal of heat from an aluminum bar at 304°F by quenching the bar in different coolants at 214°F under 15 psi pressure. Compare the time required to reduce the temperature of the aluminum to 250°F, or the boiling point of water at 15 psi. WaterWetter® required 3.2 seconds, water alone 3.7 sec, 50/50 glycol in water required 10.2 sec, and 100% glycol required 21 sec. Water alone required 15% longer, 50/50 glycol 220% longer, and 100% glycol required 550% longer.
--------------------------------------------

Looks like a good addative to a water quench.

[MushiSushi]

it's clear that there are 2 important factors in putting additives to a water quench; 1 is to reduce the surface tension and the other is to reduce the nature of the water forming a vapour barrier, but what does water do specifically compared to oil? because it strikes me that oil has less surface tension and doesn't produce the vapour barrier so you'd think it would cool quicker, but then water also has more thermal transfer. The recipe for super quench is supposed to be for medium carbon steels, not something I would use for O1 :yikes: ...... what I was thinking about with emulsifying oil and water was to find a happy medium for quenching O1, between the risky shock of water that can crack O1 and the happier medium of oil which is less likely to produce a notable hamon. Of course, reading about the forward backwards bending has thrown a whole new spanner in the works :banghead:

[Colin KC]

Of course, reading about the forward backwards bending has thrown a whole new spanner in the works :banghead:


Hmmmmmm :twak: izashi

[MushiSushi]

they don't call you speedy for nothing Col :p ;)

[Colin KC]

Just boon watching 20 past dead (new Seagull film;)) In fact, just going back to it:D

[MushiSushi]

Steven seagull? does a bit of Aikido and hangs around municipal waste depots scrounging for food?

[shing]

I got some fireclay from Machine Mart to use, I'll quench in veg oil. If that dosen't work, I'll use plain water. You can dissolve oil in degassed water, degassing can be done by boiling the water for some time and letting it cool. A really fast quench would be very cold mercury but that might be a little dangerous.

[Colin KC]

I got some fireclay from Machine Mart to use, I'll quench in veg oil. If that dosen't work, I'll use plain water. You can dissolve oil in degassed water, degassing can be done by boiling the water for some time and letting it cool. A really fast quench would be very cold mercury but that might be a little dangerous.

Not as dangerous as liquid O2 :yikes: Now that would be a fast quench :rolleyes: ;)

[Colin KC]

BTW kiddies, we are proffeshnials, please don't try this at home (or quenching in acetone:rolleyes: )

[MushiSushi]

:twak: Hmmmmm :flipa:

[Colin KC]

I though that "twak"izashi was quite good for that time of night;)

[Colin KC]

You'll notice that, as I'm into the JD, no sense issues at all:rooleyes:

[Colin KC]

definately!

[MushiSushi]

WELL in to the JD!!!, :p

[Colin KC]

Defineatley!

[Colin KC]

BTW Keith (yes Mushy, I know he's not going to read this for a bit! Prolly given up on this thread by now:rolleyes: ) I hope you're not going to do anything silly with your newest!

[Colin KC]

like the post about the Fred Perrin on the fencing forum (wish I could find that cartoon;))

[MushiSushi]

what are you babbling on about now? ... go to bed and sleep it off :alcoholic :alcoholic :alcoholic :alcoholic

[Colin KC]

Search for Kiridachi on any search engine:realrolleyes:

[MushiSushi]

ok I know what a kiridashi is :rolleyes: , but what are you suggesting he might do with it? ..... ohhhh acetone ..... I gotcha ;)

[Colin KC]

Checkout the poster's name;)

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8161

[keith_beef]

Checkout the poster's name;)

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8161

What a tangled web we weave... From rec.knives to some fencing forum, now to BB tied in with acetone and dry ice quenching.

Got to weave in the Kydex thread, then the circle will almost reach closure.

Apokrif cross-posted his original question to rec.martial-arts, rec.knives and rec.sport.fencing, I answered in rec.knives, and now it's turning up all over the place!

I'll try to dig out the cartoon. It really is quite funny.


.

[MushiSushi]

I thought I recognised the question ;)

[keith_beef]

like the post about the Fred Perrin on the fencing forum (wish I could find that cartoon;))

Here you go, Col.

Shamelessly photographed from issue 24 of the French Mag Excalibur, first quarter 2002.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/klrhodes/images/Kiridashi/Frame_1.jpg
http://perso.club-internet.fr/klrhodes/images/Kiridashi/Frame_2.jpg
http://perso.club-internet.fr/klrhodes/images/Kiridashi/Frame_3.jpg
http://perso.club-internet.fr/klrhodes/images/Kiridashi/Frame_4.jpg

The story, is that some bloke (who might just be Fred Perrin when he had a poney tail) is at a cash machine getting some shekels, when four scrotes decide to rob him.

They call him "ponce", "wooly woofter", "uphill gardener" and various other euphemisms for "homosexual", and laugh at his little knife.

Then they get "incapacitated" in a non-lethal way.

Keith.