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etorix
26-10-10, 01:49 PM
this is on a Japanese site, but its in engrish [with illustrations]

basic waterstone technique and tips


If handling of knife is not correct, all matters like bite of knife and brilliance and etc, would be lost.
This is easy introduction of necessary care and re-sharpening method to keep high quality knife forever.

http://tojiro.net/en/sharpen.html
and
http://tojiro.net/en/mame.html

Noddy
26-10-10, 05:44 PM
I really thought this was going to be a link to some surprisingly available instructional manual at a well known retailers

etorix
27-10-10, 12:02 PM
foyled again huh

i like the 'Shingle edge' bit

otherwise its on a useful-looking knife-seller site that wouldnt respond to my emails when i had dosh, they have a few pages of takeshi saji: http://tojiro.net/en/saji.html

ive now assembled a rough kit of waterstones tho:

King Deluxe in 800 grit .. size of a brick, bought cheap on here but not quite flat, im using a quite coarse diamond 'benchstone' to flatten it and raise mud
Cerax combination stone in 1000 / 6000 .. japanese ceramic, bought from http://www.fine-tools.com/
"Maruichi" brand Nakayama Suita natural finish stone from So's dad; unknown superfine grit but its a piece of art; id better photograph it before i wear the beautiful writings off it

i think id like to get more naturals if i can catch em, im not after glossy, i want 'cloudy' [showing the grain]

and now i find im wanting a 120 grit green lobster

etorix
27-10-10, 01:44 PM
massive sharpening-resource-list .. erm .. found on knifeforums

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/printpost.php?tid/759892/

etorix
27-10-10, 03:18 PM
Missarka , possible coarse-end fast-cutting on el steelo moderno


he coarse side of the combination stone shown below is made of silicon carbide which does have bonding material included. The bond is not a problem for coarse-grained stones.

Kevin Wilkins, knife maker, recommend this stone for knife steels such as D2 oder ATS-34.

http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm

seems not exorbitantly priced

etorix
27-10-10, 03:32 PM
and then, theres Aoto for the middle

http://www.epicureanedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=87266


Description: The Aoto Natural Mountain Blue Stone removes scratches left by coarser stones and is the professionals' secret for obtaining a superior edge. It makes possible a sharper, longer lasting edge when used prior to any of our finish or polish stones, and we recommend using it prior to all #6000 -#8000 grit stones to achieve the best edge attainable. Quite often, an edge which is beginning to dull can be touched-up on the Aoto, thus saving time and effort

definitely wants plotting for, this bit

maybe fairly long-term, some selling may be called for

yap...
27-10-10, 05:21 PM
hi

try here also, : http://stores.ebay.com/Japanese-tools-whetstone-for-sword/Water-stone-whetstones-diamond-/_i.html?_fsub=4857397&_sid=119345294&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

very polite , helpful and fast ... stones came in paper box, rapped and secure

etorix
28-10-10, 12:36 AM
erm, yeah

i cant buy from 330mate on ebay-uk, hes classified as 'knifes'

and altho i was in touch with him thru his website and by email and ive bought a good few things direct from him,

comms failed when it came to the stones discussion, he didnt respond .. at all

etorix
28-10-10, 11:48 AM
yap...

thanks for reminding me of Nakaoka-san tho, seems a nice guy

his website is a bit awful tho, the ebay site is far easier to buy from [except we cant here]

http://www.330mate.com/product/342

its possible tho, it can be done

etorix
31-10-10, 03:13 PM
apparently these nortons are mad cutters

http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Norton_Waterstones.html

id be goin for the Grit 220/1000 8"x3"x1" 24335 : NCW-24335 £32.95

or a missarka, jury is out and i cant afford either this week http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm

http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Sharpening.html

and then id have a norton-water-stone 1000 to play with

all the nortons ive had or used over the years were oilstones, with Arkansas stones for finishing, and i have a good small set .. soft/hard/black ..

next might be a shapton

i hear theres a grit that gives matte finish, lost the stupid forum-thread now but

and then of course theres Shosui Takeda and his kits .. but hes away at Show[s] atm .. id let him sell me stones

http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

gives me time to save up

etorix
31-10-10, 03:48 PM
and

no this thread isnt quite a direct response to Robin Wood's excellent and super-informative thread here: http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?113780-Beautiful-axes-Japanese-carpentry-tools&p=1554585#post1554585

he's blatantly a 'chippie' and woodworker, he wants sharp tools to cut the wood that hes cutting

me if i go up to a bit of wood i get splinters, but iron/steel bends and melts or so before me, kinda, i can do fings to it

ive been slowly assembling a kit of waterstones: i read before i buy :: this is me publicly working thru that

im not actually after the ultimate sharp neither

im after revealing grain in metal, and im after the surface feel of the products by the finer Japanese workers which ive handled, my best pieces are culture-shockingly nice

and i have a habit of finding myself doin things the way the old guys did

Noddy
31-10-10, 03:55 PM
This is a great thread et - thanks for the infos

robin wood
31-10-10, 04:15 PM
Interesting thread. The more I learn about waterstones the more I realise that there is no substitute for actually working with them, there are so many variables it is difficult to compare one brand of 1000 grit stone to another. The abrasive particles are not all the same size of shape and different manufacturers will use different processes sieving methods etc which gives different results, 1000 grit is a very approximate term. As well as particle size there is particle shape and bonding compound to consider, lots of variables.

When working on a Japanese carpentry site I was hugely impressed with their sharpening. They are very very fast. The stones sit over a big sturdy water trough so they can apply a lot of pressure, they also dress the stones continuously to keep them flat and keep exposing new particles. They preferred shaptons for the coarse grits and naturals for the fine. Photos and more details here http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-japanese-use-waterstones-for.html
Most folk in the UK only ever try king brand waterstones and there are far better stones out there that cut faster and do not wear as fast.

etorix
31-10-10, 05:54 PM
Shaptons Direct: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/BluewayJapan

erm, yeah .. Robin .. for some reason i held back from just getting King

no clue why, i went for a Cerax ceramic combo, i just liked em on the page

tho when Farid put a king deluxe 800 up on here i bit his hand off

its the same color as this teapot im breaking in

robin wood
31-10-10, 06:40 PM
Shaptons Direct: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/BluewayJapan


Shaptons are now available in the UK from here http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Shapton_Stones.html (no affiliation etc)

they only seem to do the glass stones but they are probably the best.

Andy
31-10-10, 06:56 PM
I have a ceramic stone which was sold as a cerax 6,000g but doesn't seem that smooth to me. I'd be happy to pass it round a few people who get to play with different stones to see what they think of it. I've also got what appears to be the Aoto linked to. Mine is list as a 2,500 -3,000 and was sold as a premium grade water stone. I'd offer that round but it's big, heavy and I'd worry about it breaking.

The ones I remembered to bring to Nottingham are the king 6,000 and the shapton 1,000 I would really like to extend my collection with some finer stones but above 6k tends to get rather expensive.

etorix
31-10-10, 07:42 PM
Andy, is that Aoto from 330mate?

what id like to try is the combo Missarka http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm .. i aint found any reviews or user-report yet [cept for a Kevin wilkins recommend]

id think i have an idea how a Norton 220/1000 Grit Combination Sharpening stone would be .. still they review well, id go 35 gbp on one http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Norton_Waterstones.html

me i STARTED by getting the finest stone i could while i was a bit flush

a "Maruichi" brand Nakayama Suita .. sourced by So Yamashita from his dad .. he seems offline atm: http://japan-tool.com/

we had a good few emails back n forth before he sold me one on one .. it actually took months, quite slowly

pics of this bit of Kyoto-Art-Rock may follow as soon as my studio disasters cease ... hm, sec

i bought it from this pic, the stone at top right corner .. [brave eh .. or foolish] ... it doesnt want soaking, just a dash'll do ya

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eYsjON3gat0S9fnvWCPACg?feat=directlink

arm anda leg city .. better pics soon come


Ah~~~, great, this one (top right corner) was still in stock.
It is a stone hand picked by my dad for razor honing, thus a bit harder than the other one I showed you earlier. If you wish to finish your knives finer/shinier, this one is better. The veins running thru will not affect the polishing. It has very nice light yellowish colour.


"Maruichi" brand Nakayama Suita for razors
About #25000~27000 in fineness. Med soft, easy to use.

148 x 84 x 23 714g It is 24990JPY but 20000JPY is okay~~~.

Andy
31-10-10, 08:22 PM
no I bought a few stones from a carpenter who was retiring off ebay. The ones I bought were sold as spares he'd picked up cheap. The king one still had the stickers from Axminster.

robin wood
31-10-10, 09:02 PM
arm anda leg city .. but 20000JPY is okay

Oh just £150 then, was shipping extra? how do you find it performs? What stones do you use to lead up to it?

etorix
01-11-10, 03:20 AM
hm .. its not letting me post, ive lost 3 replies already

ok .. the Suita is a final finish stone, ive tested it a bit to get a feel n that like, but im not leaning on it yet

mostly im working on the King, its a bit hollow, so i go

soak/diamond-flattening-practice/blades .. im working on 3 blades, nothing special, just assorted penknifes, im not going near these stones with a 'good' blade for a good while yet

ok, one is a Wrights SOE-jacknife copy [without tyre-slasher] a ancient I*XL penknife rebladed on here, and a SOG Blink .. all are non-flat

the king feels ok to me, im getting into it

but its not got enough cut, its getting nicely flat tho, im getting THAT technique down, the diamond raises a nice mud

i aint nearly reached need to go to the Cerax 1000/6000, im taking my time here, course ive tried both sides briefly for a feel .. btw i got a Nagura with the Cerax, sposed to be good with it, dunno tho

all three stones seem to want watering differently

i actually really do need a faster-cutting coarser grit, both for the blades im using for practice here, and for future plots

so its either Missarka combi or Norton combi 200/1000 next, or green lobster

and if i can catch a nice natural fine, bitless fine than the Suita ...

etorix
01-11-10, 03:57 AM
heh, i forgot to answer the question

postage cost is 2600 yen on the box it arrived in, customs hit me for 27.47 GBP

i have zero recollection of what his shipping fee was, if there was one, and i cant find the paypal receipt yet .. hmm it got here in March this year

180-ish notes for a bit of old mud-shale

that may not ever really participate in an active revenue-stream, i must be bonkers eh

etorix
01-11-10, 05:24 AM
i beieve this to be a stone-testing station in one corner of one room in So Yamashita's dad's house in Tokyo, where he picked a stone for me
he would asppear to be a manic stone accumulator ... i would expect to believe him if he recommended anything ... so i did
now its up to me to prepare steel for offering up to this Nakayama Suita, and move correctly
http://japan-tool.com/toishi/tennen/Shapening_Section.jpg

Home > Technique & Knowledge > Natural Stone quarries
http://japan-tool.com/tech_knlg/toishi/Natural_Stone_Mines.html

etorix
01-11-10, 09:12 AM
hm, maybe its this one http://www.fine-tools.com/shapton8000.jpg

n contrast to the traditional, and CERAX, 8000-grit waterstones, the Shapton 8000-grit polishes very little, instead leaving a very fine matt surface. Whether that influences the final practical sharpness cannot as yet be determined, but it is well known that even some of the finest and most expensive Japanese natural stones also do not leave a mirror surface, and the final sharpness that can be achieved with those stones is justly famous.

SHAPTON Honing Stone melon
Grain size: 8000
Professional series
for removing the burr after sharpening
Size: 210 mm x 70 mm x 15 mm
Order nr. 310967
Price € 89.00

maz
01-11-10, 12:17 PM
Nice thread etorix, very informative and taught me a few interesting point's. Cheers!

etorix
01-11-10, 03:29 PM
dont you worry mate

this asint nearly even close to being over yet neither

with mixing stone-types there can be compatability issues, the next finest up may hate the grindmarks of a earlier

this is where the Japanese woodworkers' experience in the fields is so valuable, they use the traditional blade

and whatever stones work NOW

its not some Togishi where the guy has accumulated his set of stones and gets a sword polished out every 3 months [or so] thats a really specialised game, the sword wants watching carefully a lot before going to the Stones :: example here: http://www.swordpolisher.com/beforeandafter.html << nice before and afters, bit i cant see his Rocks

then theres http://www.straightrazorplace.com/

manic shavors of the world united, who buy sell trade and discuss both stones and razors, and SHAVE with em, they get down to M I N U T E detail about sets of stones and sharpen methods

best accessed from Unca Google on a stone+name+blah basis

my local barber now retired .. Andy, of Andy's of Chalk Farm [opposite the Roundhouse] asked me if id sell his shop razors online for him

actually, they are all still buried in his shed or storage-facility or wherever .. lets hope he excavates em before DemonRust gets at em

etorix
01-11-10, 03:34 PM
and this one for the coarse end of the bar


The 120-grit stone cuts about as quickly as the 240-grit SUN TIGER from Matsunaga, and, as noted above, holds its flat surface much longer. One can make the rougher stones cut still more quickly if one uses a little more pressure than is usual with softer stones.

http://www.fine-tools.com/shapton120.jpg
SHAPTON Coarse Stone white
Grain size: 120
Professional series
for grinding down notches and restoring blades
Size: 210 mm x 70 mm x 15 mm
Order nr. 310960
Price € 45.00


Country Service 1 kg 5 kg 10 kg 20 kg COD charge Time Tracking
United Kingdom UPS Standard € 9.00 € 9.00 € 12.00 € 16.00 € 12.00 2 - 4 days yes

= 51 €
= 44.1837 GBP

etorix
02-11-10, 05:05 AM
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Japanese-tools-metalmaster
Item location: Kyoto Japan, Japan
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shapton-JP-sharpening-water-whetstone-8000-grit-/250711156588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5f8ca76c << i wannit, pending funds .. if this one does 'matt' then i may not want another natural


Feature of shapton whetstone

/It is possible to sharpen it soon.
The proportion of Totsb and the bond agent
in the whetstone raw material is high.

/It lasts long.
Because the decrease of the number of whetstones is few,
it is possible to use for a long period.

/It doesn't smell.
The smell doesn't adhere to cutlery.

/High grinding power
Because the proportion of hard Totsb is high,
it is early with the blade.

Shapton whetstone!!!
#120 grit
Rough sharpening
This is a whetstone that the whetstone shop in Kyoto recommends.
It gets the highest ratings.

SIZE Length 210mm×Width 75mm×Thickness 15mm

Shapton water sharpening whetstone #120 / ARATOGI

Current Item location: in transit to london from: Kyoto Japan, Japan

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shapton-water-sharpening-whetstone-120-ARATOGI-/260677929610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb19d8a8a << i bought it, funds pent

/me taps fingers

etorix
03-11-10, 03:47 AM
right then .. so now i have a Shapton coarse/fast-cutter #120 grit artificial on the way [direct from kyoto]

and a finer Shapton #8000 planned

i really feel i should plot getting smaller pieces of fine-grained naturals

to get some feel for naturals before i go to the Suita finish-stone, which actually im only likely to use on final edges, it being a glossy/polisher n all

possibly even sell it on before i knacker its stamps and/or surface, i think its a razor 'pick' tbh

etorix
04-11-10, 02:11 PM
hm, never seen of these http://www.matsunaga-corp.co.jp/kakutoishi/03.html ... King diamond stones

http://www.matsunaga-corp.co.jp/kakutoishi/05.html

Kingudaiyamondotoishi << what can that be, fancy [ Kingu daiyamondo toishi ]


Kingudaiyamondotoishi Features
It is kept in luxury Toishi Rejinoidobondo recherche diamond powder.

Kingudaiyamondotoishi (resin type)
Size : 215 × 70 × 15 × 1
Granularity : # 1000 for finishing in
Applications: : Tungsten carbide blades and knives from the general
研Gemasu knife easier to chip removal.
Quantity per : 5-chome

Matsunaga Stone Co are the makers of King stones, amonst many other brands + products

more ceramics: http://www.minosharp.jp/products/index.html .. ok, these are targeted at chefs

a UK suppliers linkie: http://www.gourmetkitchenware.co.uk/97/Knives-and-Accessories/Sharpening/index.php .. there will be others in chef land

good stock but inna USA http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/?gclid=CJix1KXSh6UCFYFH4wodj1_HOQ

now then .. Trend [UK] diamond tools: http://www.powertooldirect.co.uk/trend_woodworking_from_trend_diamond_sharpening_to ols-cm-119-1481.html?page=2

Trend seem to make some interesting and useful kit: http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/productgroup/61/sharpening.html

their marketing aint targeteting me exactly, but from what ive seen id buy a bit to try

i tell a lie, on here : http://www.trend-uk.com/en/AT/trend/content/content_detail.php?record_type=Knowledge&id=15894


Using an ¨electroless¨ process, monocrystalline diamonds are bonded onto a nickel plated Carbon Steel backing plate

i think they got me *Carbon Steel backing plate*

etorix
06-11-10, 05:14 AM
Knife Sharpening Secrets - Japanese Knives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCtx8VYxUK4&feature=related

erm .. its mostly wheel till right at the end

etorix
07-11-10, 06:52 PM
rather oddly coded site, but good info etc: http://hmsenterprises.com/getsharper.com.html

robin wood
07-11-10, 07:16 PM
erm .. its mostly wheel till right at the end

Nice video, just like watching Brian Alcock on the wheel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlO-fo_xLRU

Interesting to see your Japanese chap looks to be using all man made stones not naturals.

etorix
07-11-10, 10:54 PM
robin, its a work environment

either he'd use whats there, or whatever keeps working the best longest, like his wheel seems truly round, in my experience waterwheels lose round fast, guess it depends on users

hes after the working edge and not the pretty finish

and, Robin .. can u identify his stones? best guess, if u would

robin wood
07-11-10, 11:43 PM
robin, its a work environment

either he'd use whats there, or whatever keeps working the best longest, like his wheel seems truly round, in my experience waterwheels lose round fast, guess it depends on users

hes after the working edge and not the pretty finish

and, Robin .. can u identify his stones? best guess, if u would

Any professional keeps stones round, that is a serious stone going at speed and any out of trueness would cause serious issues and danger. They tend to go out if you leave them with the water on the bottom bit of the stone. When not in use every professional grinder I have seen will bail out the water to leave the stone dry. I did pause the vid but couldn't identify the bench stones.

etorix
08-11-10, 12:30 AM
that is indeed a heavy rock spinning at speed, damp but not very wet too .. i actually think i have a rotary dresser, or i used to

cheers for trying tho, none of his benchstones looke natural to me, and why would they be?

hes doing NEW knife

etorix
08-11-10, 04:14 AM
couple of new-to-me sources for stones: : http://www.morihei.co.jp/english/index.html ++ http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/

and for no good reasonhttp://www.morihei.co.jp/product/images/photo_katarogu3-4b.jpg a woodblock of a plane

looks like thiishttp://www.morihei.co.jp/product/images/photo_katarogu3-3b.jpg in the catalog

etorix
08-11-10, 04:39 AM
a plane bladehttp://www.morihei.co.jp/product/images/photo_katarogu3-5b.jpgjust like i pictured it

etorix
08-11-10, 04:41 AM
more woodblockshttp://www.morihei.co.jp/product/images/photo_katarogu3-2b.jpgin fact, prolly all of em from that ol catalog

etorix
09-11-10, 09:52 PM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shapton-JP-sharpening-water-whetstone-8000-grit-/250711156588?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5f8ca76c

Shapton-JP .. So talks about these, not exported, formulated for finishing Aogami steels and the like

normal export Shapton Pro suit Western steels better

/me want, after my ship comes in

and speaking of ships
Shapton water sharpening whetstone #120 / ARATOGI .. 7 days after payment its just bin shipped EMS from Kyoto

etorix
10-11-10, 07:18 PM
so .. thinking about composition of baked artificials .. and UK native naturals

nice n chilly and only a little drunk, i went up on the Heath for a nightwalk, its bin a longtime since i walked in the forest at night

mainly i went to public and well-hidden birches groves, i know a few good spots [lookin for antifungal spray damage]

and also, some of hampstead heath has stoneage tools 4" under the current surface, in some places, fenced off now of course .. the older gravelled-paths always give good pebble ... and nice blue-glazed potshards

when i got home .. my house has scaffolding up, builders are fixing roof + windows, i found a 6" square of red tile + a brick + 9"x 2" wide lead offcut

this brick is a Funton http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4261 [its like a loaf of fossilbread] and http://www.ibstockancestry.co.uk/funton.htm .. the sides are reasonably flat [--ish] if Murray Carter can sharpen on brick ...

i put my coarse diamond plate to the soaked tile, its really hard, not sure if i want to destroy the plate on it

BUT .. i do have a friend who makes tiles, hes got the oven , in a railway arch n all

im sure, given correct ingredients, and access to an industrial flatter/lapper

.. i might just go all CSI on some good Japstones

etorix
11-11-10, 03:24 PM
and .. the rocks are sliding towards me

Shapton Glass Stone 50102 #500 grit arrived today .. apparently from dick, but via Classic Hand Tools Ltd

slightly disturbingly the actual shrinkwrap had bin opened, this plate had bin shown or looked at, geezer at Classic Hand Tools said all his Shaptons were at some show, last friday

doesnt that make it ex-demo

hmm

i also took a chance on 3 Naniwas off ebay, they should roll up soon


set of 3 naniwa hones all lapped and ready to go

these are the 20mm with plastic base all like new

3k,5k,8k grit all boxed and in new condition

so, a #8000 next

should it be Kitayama or Shapton JP or [S] #10,000 ..

etorix
12-11-10, 08:47 AM
Chart of all Shaptons http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ilxbQa6dE8vUxR2CYaU4sQ?feat=directlink


“regular” Glass stones are white in color, and in the US come in #220, #500, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k, 6k, 8k, 16k, and 30k. The gray JP Glass stones are gray in color, and are formulated for carbon steel.

#120, #220, #320 5000
#1000 5100
#1500 5500
#2000 5800
#5000 7600
#8000, #15000 10000
#30000 55000

etorix
17-11-10, 01:01 PM
#8000 Kitayama ordered up, and a couple of latest-new-type Sigma Power stones, not well-known on the market yet afaik

Sigma Power stones are highly recommended on So Yamashita's site, but not easily available

ive also ordered a bunch of stoneholders, various

gah, and .. ive bought a seriously un-flat old greeny Japanese stone [cheap] .. this could be fun to lap

but this arrived: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FAITHFULL-150X65mm-COARSE-DIAMOND-BENCH-WHETSTONE-/310247128038#ht_500wt_922

good feet, nicely tight lid .. i have zero experience of Faithfull tools, they seem to make EVERYTHING and be suddenly omnipresent

and now im PinkLint, stricken by cashflow till further notice

gregs656
17-11-10, 02:30 PM
Those shamptons are meant to be excellent. I'm told with razors they provide a brilliant level of feedback, enough to know when to move onto the next stone just from feel, which is pretty cool.

I don't own any shamptons, or any japanese stones. I've got a couple of coticule/BBW natural combos, a BBW with most of the Coti has worn away. A couple of Charnley Forest stones including one stamped from the whittle hill quarry, I've never heard of another one of those, and a arkansas. I'd like a nice quick bevel setter.

etorix
18-11-10, 11:49 PM
Charnley Forest stones eh http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/01/39/2013930_ffd7d26f.jpg Quarry on the side of Whittle Hill, viewed from the top of the Peel Monument © Copyright David Dixon and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

Whittle Hill Quarry, Hill Top Lane, Whittle-le-Woods

Grid Reference: 585 217
Operations: Sandstone/gritstone quarry (inactive)
Area: 6.5 hectares
Operator: Ruttle Ltd.

Location: Whittle Hill Quarry is located within Whittle-le-Woods, approximately 2 miles north of Chorley. Access to the site is from Hill Top Lane, which also serves the adjacent Little Quarries, although in the past an alternative access existed directly from Chorley Old Road.

Activities: The site has been worked for stone since the beginning of the last century. Planning permission was granted in 1951 for the extraction of sandstone in an area comprising 3.28 hectares at Whittle Hill Quarry. A further application was granted permission in 1957 covering an area of 1.76 hectares to the west of the main working area relating to the removal of quarry waste. The County Council imposed modern conditions in October 1997 as part of the Minerals Review under the requirements of the Environment Act 1995. Mineral extraction and the removal of quarry waste are scheduled to cease at the site not later than 21st February 2042 with final restoration by 21st February 2043. The quarry had previously been worked to a depth of around 40 metres. However, operations are not permitted to re-commence under the current planning permission until the operator has satisfied the requirements of a number of planning conditions. Since the suspension of extraction operations, the site has become flooded.

Contact Details: Planning controls over the site are, administered by Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate. Planning Officer: Patrick McKeown 01772 534177

etorix
19-11-10, 11:13 PM
New arrivals at my post

Shapton water sharpening whetstone #120 / ARATOGI << cool .. the delivery / storage box acts as a stand, with the #500 GlassStone inside to add weight

really rough this one .. intended as both gross metal-remover for dire-blades and lapstone for higher grits [same is intended for the coming #320 J Pro + i have 2 coarse-grit diamond benchstones for this]

looking at it , its all shiny bits

3 x Naniwa super stones #3000 #5000 #8000 << BIG + previously owned, but lapped pre-sale, looks like not-much-removed .. all come glued to stands and are nice pastel-colored, gawd the #8000 feels nice

thats 4 new rocks today to get my head round

now i id like a selection of smaller both natural and man-made nagura pieces

maz
20-11-10, 11:11 AM
Get a video up of you reviewing them! Let's see some hairs being popped!

etorix
20-11-10, 07:37 PM
Well ... tbh, im nowhere near hair-popping-edge-productions, thats for the finish-stones set, which still needs / awaits more kit :: ie stone-holders + alt-choices-stones still in transit

its also a different blade-to-stone-offering than what im trying to get a handle on at this stage, i straight-up dont yet posess the skills necessary to 'review' these Naniwas, its gonna take some time .. and what do i

have to compare them with? im learning as i go here

nice-feeling + goodlookin stones tho, i may not be able to resist gettin em wet for long, they seem flat + in good condition, i dont feel ripped off at the buy price for these 3 grits in Super Stone

theres vids online of guys doing final-edge on shiny new hi-quality chefknife or kanna blades in good condition .. and lots of razor info/experience ..

look at any of the togishi vids tho, none of em deal with 'edge', its all about 'surface'

im working on getting control of the blade-flattening bevel-setting coarse-grit [and stone-flattening] end, moving-the-blade-control for consistency and feeling out the stones for mud-production and watering

my current assorted set of blades that im working on [about 8 in all] none of em are 'perfect' blades or production folders that just need sharpening or final-edge touchup

this Shapton Pro #120 is a savage beast :: leaves a deep heavy scratch, which im not yet capable of removing to my satisfaction.. the #500 GlassStone aint right for a 'next grit' here, nor the King #800

the Shapton Pro #120 is also reportedly not a easy beast to control, its easy to gouge the surface on, sposed to dish fast, easy to make a mess on [and of] .. i was warned against getting it in the first place [HA! -- like thats gonna work]

and, as usual, it eats water differently to the other stone types ... it eats steel for breakfast tho

this is also my first Shapton Pro .. i love the presentation, the delivery packaging is for safe transport AND storage AND its a working-stand .. its got holes in the bottom for standing in a pool .. some pics here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/uz2q2cj2ToTDNBQGjGs0Gg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_bRFG1rqdfBnELj9DReJiQ?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MS7QN_QWExpY4DyNlZC71w?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/xSUlg69q0Q4YOTEICF3RUg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jq1nqM02zEQLxBjovqETCQ?feat=directlink

more pics to follow, cam-batt went flat

i want more of these, not least because thay are designed to work together .. i like the thinking behind 'these' ceramics so far, quite enough to throw more money at em

theres a J Pro #320 on its way from Japan, guess i will locally source a #220 [praypal permitting]

etorix
24-11-10, 03:03 AM
think i might want to try barrier cream that wouldnt affect any stones' compo ..

mud is SO drying

anyway, my fingertips are callousing up well .. more so on my left, prolly from brushing water + mud about

1st run kitchen knifes are nearly done, one full-convexed [might be 440c] one single-bevel Japanese cheapo nakiri .. iron with quite narrow 'whitesteel' edge-inclusion
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zjLYZZHBrduWgaQQ7XYRRA?feat=directlink << both, de-rusted

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Sua1VJ902dlXWg5pVFrDoQ?feat=directlink << smallknife
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/yQJOD1T1XqGkxZoBAZvlSA?feat=directlink << full-convexed

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gyDxjSifm_dQ-sSWBfKb8w?feat=directlink << nakiri, bevel side
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/E0NV0sBbxw7owtR3dJ7TqQ?feat=directlink << lots of surface damage, im not getting all that out

etorix
24-11-10, 11:51 AM
Videos....Lots of 'em http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/846306/

etorix
26-11-10, 01:42 AM
so here comes a real test .. ive got one of the first-run Nylund whittlers .. a nice plain worker, just steel+wood+leather, no messin'

part of this waterstone-collect-objective is to re-do some scandis to true- full-flat

ive previously tried doin a few .. couple of small Bruslettos .. partially re-done a Poul Strande .. not to my satisfaction, with the kit i had

im not particularly a whittler, tho i will get at a bit of wood

the Nylund whittler seems a bit long for me, id prefer a shorter blade, but to my horror the other day i found a rust-spot near the edge .. [prior to photo-ing it for sale like]

... pics to follow once its shiny again

in other news, i just bought a Kanna blade off ebay [japanese carpenters plane blade]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/AoGS2ODpZk-2V7kELhg8Xg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nS4SVbHvQeOfZuqvFIDchw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/NbG9Oz9z1VQySXn_Hg0Vug?feat=directlink

etorix
27-11-10, 06:17 AM
my new neckstone from Kyoto

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XDnyS_GyRKxiQJBqKtQRag?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fnUAcpb-dbPqcFS0D-6EgQ?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/643uCxqnsfOo5afBEAyJWg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XDnyS_GyRKxiQJBqKtQRag?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nt8Yt1LYwIZyXpvZgCGjAQ?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/esQDPdSo17DSj2lKGV5gtg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n0FLVkZMXSAqT9sJwCEYtg?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PomwKP_VitSkNR_IKO4MDw?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/SLBAUOpelKv_WjzozXtVnQ?feat=directlink

green lobsterish and black/fine .. with a cord-hole, for tying on for up a ladder or so

its neither a metric nor imperial size

the black side might lap true, but theres no part or suggestion even of a flat on the greenside

except the long non-stamp side

etorix
27-11-10, 05:25 PM
An article about the developer of Sigma stones: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fc19990814a1.html

same guy: Swordsmith: Shigeyoshi Iwasaki http://www.munemasa.co.jp/english/1707/1707-301.htm

etorix
29-11-10, 11:25 AM
yet another hone-list http://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=354

etorix
01-12-10, 10:25 AM
yay hoorah my kanna was posted today in Kamakura http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=230551055252


This largish Japanese kanna blade is probably 40-50 or so years old, and is meant for a hira-ganna (smoothing plane). We're not quite able to figure out the maker's mark, but the seam of the lamination of iron over steel is a about two thirds of the way up the front.
This blade is in fair condition. Aside from general wear, there is a patch of bumpy oxidation at one end of the bezel. The cutting edge is somewhat ragged and has a couple of small chips in it, but is surely correctable.

In all, this blade seems to be quite usable, but it will need a bit of renovation.
frontsidehttp://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/kana.png
obversehttp://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/kana1.png

course .. im not buying this cos its a bit of art, its purely StonePracticeStudy

etorix
03-12-10, 12:21 PM
next on the block: Dodgy Native .. bladed in 440c, with removable pivot

possibly connection to Camillus .. whatever, it feels great in hand, this is a really USED knife, and i LIKE it

but one of its previous over-polished it to the extent of losing any sharp lines [tho not the edge, thats still normal spydie-edge]

i did get TomKrein to agree to reGrind it, but he never answered my follow-ups

pics to follow, in due time

etorix
08-12-10, 02:23 AM
unngh .. this Native blade turned into one epic saga, its on its 4th day of stone/look = no, stone/look = no

the swedges had hollows

to get surface on the main sharp i had to remove the hollow of the grind .. and it had a final deeper bit just before the ricasso

which itself has rounded corners

o well .. either this is a variant or one early owner customised it by adding the pivot, made a very nice job of it too

a subsequent owner over-buffed it

now im putting it to the waterstones, not to add value, its a 440a user, just to carry on the apparent tradition of torturing it

i should prolly convex it, but im feeling like just sharpmaker-ing the edge

etorix
08-12-10, 02:56 AM
in other news, that kanna arrived, an its really gorgeous, big and heavy and OLD

just wants oiling and a bit of active rust removed,

i may get another one for stone practice, possibly a working plane

Philip L
08-12-10, 01:05 PM
Hi

I think the 2nd kanji may mean 'Superior' and it's often used with a man's name- the 1st kanji which I can't recognize.

The 2 to the right mean Register and the one underneath is '5'.

Hope it helps

etorix
08-12-10, 02:08 PM
ha, cool, thanks for posting that, every little helps

this blade came from Kamakura, and its definitely old

etorix
10-12-10, 10:54 AM
next up Puuronvarsi 80 unbuilt, factory grind

tip needs slight edgeline reshape

dead good curved-spine tip grind, the resolution of the quite flat flats -to- tip is as armorpiercing as

this is getting a sharpen + cleanup .. no full polish, the grindlines will partly remain

jhobson
10-12-10, 04:50 PM
Great thread. Thanks
My recent observations:
I've been using diamond stones a lot recently. I'm still committed to small DMT ones (approx 20mmx60mm) for refining grind lines and nothing is better for me for the level of control I can get. But you have to use appropriately to get the best life and use.
Also, my current opinion is that the Duo Lap are the best go-anywhere, lightweight, general purpose sharpening tools.
But, I now have no inclination to buy larger diamond stones. For me, my search for larger stones will be focussed on water stones and I will need to read this thread in some detail!

Use of mainly DMT diamonds:
I've got XX coarse(Trend), x coarse (Black), coarse (Blue), fine (red) and super fine (green); some small and some duo fold.
The bigger grits don't always cut faster than the finer grits. Strangely, this seems most likely on harder steel.
You have to be careful with the xx and x. If you go too wild and press too hard then they can rip out big hard chunks of carbides from the steel and these particles scratch much more deeply than the XX grit itself. These scratches take a lot of effort to remove.
Also, the bigger grits lose the diamonds more easily. The diamonds are held in a tough matrix, but they can get ripped out if you press too hard or the steel you are grinding is a mix of hard bits in a tough matrix. The quickest way I know to ruin a coarse diamond stone is to press hard and wild while sharpening cheap stainless kitchen knives - I trashed a new stone in minutes. I will now never use xx or x on kitchen knives! I am also careful not to press too hard with blue on kitchen knives.
Diamonds can be used without lubrication but my quickest removal rates so far have been achieved by applying a small drop of 3in1 and cleaning/reapplying frequently (better than water, but not tried other oils).
I will use small XX stone where I have a lot of refining to do in a small area (and can only move the stone a small amount).
Because of these limitations, I think the path to high removal rates is waterstone rather than diamond.

Waterstones
I have a few artificial stones, mostly from Axminster. The large 250 grit block is nice to use but is soft and goes out of shape quickly. It is clearly not as fast cutting as fresh 80 grit Aluminium Oxide paper, and the finish isn't much better, but I only get a few strokes on the paper before it goes off whereas the waterstone keeps cutting.
I have 800 and 1200 grits and I'm a bit disappointed but I don't feel I have given them fair chance yet (had them 3 years though!).
I have the 1000/6000 combination. The 1000 grit seems faster than the 800 and feels nicer to use. So far for me, the 6000 will give a bright polish and does not deliver the 'misty' finish that seemed to be the quest for the start of this thread.
I have an old 250/1000 from tabwell tools and cannot remember the make but it was cheap yet is also very nice to use.
My conclusions: The grit size alone does not tell you all about speed of cut or the finish you can obtain. The cheap combination stones are a great introduction but before investing in single grit stones I would suggest researching the information in this thread. I'll be really interested in a summary of recommendations.
Recently I have started to cut small blocks off some of the larger stones and use these applied to the blade rather than moving the blade on a large stone. This takes much less skill and I recommend the approach for people less practised or cautious. However, I am also convinced that this is ultimately not as fast as applying the blade to a big stone.

etorix
11-12-10, 01:39 PM
Hi Jake, welcome to this thread, pls add more whenever

yes, a conclusion/listage / summary of recommendations will eventualise, this is a mad winding expedition of discovery here

handheld offcuts mounted is exactly what Shosui Takeda supplies, using only a board to lay the knife on http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8U3AHvLa4&feature=BF&list=PL6D89FDA4C166819F&index=5 << Shosui-san himself on a Deba -- Takeda-Sensei!
see he checks the tip + the heel sharp with paper-on-wood

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Aos-jy6pA&feature=BF&list=PL6D89FDA4C166819F&index=4 << some guy using his stone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7mQqqjEdos&feature=BF&list=PL6D89FDA4C166819F&index=6 << Takeda knife + tomato ..

it gives the massive advantage of seeing what you just did, and what you need to do next, where

once you have 'flat' restored, you can move on to biggerstone with confidence

actually my current most favorite is that 'neclkstone' .. a massive misnomer but it does have cord hole http://picasaweb.google.com/etorix/Neckstone?feat=directlink

King do a similar model, but irs not the same Green/Black #120/#220 [ish]

can be used dry in the field, as my copy has been, judging by wear, see http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?115645-Portable-Japanese-worker-s-whetstone

actually its a farmer's sickle stone imho, with plastic Netsuke n all

im not keen on King much, i have several lines of enquiry goin on ion Japan for the Green/Black tho

added bonus: they gotta be CHEAP, great entry-level small stone

i'll have a bunch if i spot any

etorix
11-12-10, 01:49 PM
and now for something completely different

more of the SCIENCE bit http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/advanced-honing-topics/60873-can-you-get-great-result-nagura-average-jnat-stone-2.html

etorix
11-12-10, 02:45 PM
Takeda videos added 2 posts up

etorix
11-12-10, 11:15 PM
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2729/vlcsnap2010093019h55m18.png

shum mishtake, shirley

etorix
12-12-10, 09:39 PM
savage edge on this puronvarsi, really bit me

grind seems a bit sloppy, but i love his thinking,

i might have to get another one of his after the wrong-snow-delivery-hiatus subsides

and i just ordered a Shapton Glass #1000 in the UK from here (http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Shapton_Stones.html) might keep me happy for a bit

etorix
13-12-10, 10:01 PM
http://www.hand-cut-dovetails.com/tools/3water-stone-maintenance/waterstonemaintenance.html

jhobson
13-12-10, 11:23 PM
How does a shapton 500 glass compare for speed and finish with DMT Black X or a 250 grit cheap stone?

etorix
14-12-10, 03:24 AM
dunno mate, i aint got either of those .. i have 2 coarse cheap diamond benchstones but only use for lapping the Faithfull .. which isnt big enough really but works ok so far

Shapton Glass #500 is far less scratchy and more pleasant to use than the Shapton J Pro #120 which is my real metal-muncher and a quite nasty piece of work

i use the Shapton J Pro #120 [sourced from ebay.jp] for gross flattening bevels on blades that need it, so my next one up is the 500 Glass, but its really finer, i think 320 might be better .. dunno yet except im not liking wearing out the 500 after the 120

i should however have a Sigma Power #120 quite soon :: Sigma Power ceramic stone #120 [in the air as we speak via Kuroneko] from Stuart at http://www.toolsfromjapan.com

that Shapton Glass #1000 in the UK turned out to have been sold unbeknownst to the guy i checked with by phone, i got my money back already even .. so my next grits up are king#800 + cerax combi 1000/6000

i really like this Shapton Glass #500 stone, but i need a much larger lap-device soon, its bowing already a bit .. im currently using it to remove the last grinderbelt lines on a couple of 'nice' scandi ..

i think it gives a good toothy edge,

for just-edge-sharpening its fast and efficient, its a quickstart too, spray-and-go

finish appears-mirror till u get up v close

did i mention that i like it

etorix
16-12-10, 02:29 PM
http://www.turners-retreat.co.uk/acatalog/Sharpening.html << good list including several lapping stones and a metal plate

superhone: http://www.wetshavingworld.com/forums/showthread.php?37-An-inexpensive-quot-superhone-quot .. Sypderco UF + diamond sprays .. kinda the modern equivalent of 'Hard Stone - Many Nagura'

NewAddedStones: yesterday i was given a smallish Norton combination stone, never oiled so good for water, needs lots of lapping,

and i just bought this Chinese 12k: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Chinese-Water-Hone-Waterstone-straight-razor-/130347556778?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Collectables_Barber_Shop_Collectables_LE&hash=item1e5951dfaa 15 GBP delivered inc nagura
It measures 150 mm x 50 mm x 17 mm in depth . It is very hard - almost like ceramic,

jhobson
16-12-10, 04:20 PM
guess if I want to find out then I'll just have to buy one then :(

etorix
16-12-10, 04:29 PM
jhobson: i can definitely recommend that Shapton Glass, if you havent got any, the #500 is a good first one

tho the Shapton Pro has the advantage of a second side, my only Pro is the #120, which i cant really commend .. this wont stop me buying higher grits tho

my Sigma Power stones have landed in UK, but not delivered to me yet

robin wood
16-12-10, 05:47 PM
and i just bought this Chinese 12k: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Chinese-Water-Hone-Waterstone-straight-razor-/130347556778?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Collectables_Barber_Shop_Collectables_LE&hash=item1e5951dfaa 15 GBP delivered inc nagura

I have seen these and almost bought over the last couple of years. I will be very interested to hear how it compares. Do you have another stone in the 10-15K range to do a direct comparison. I would be interested to hear
a) how fast it cuts compared to a comparable known stone
b) how much feel or feedback it gives compared to a known stone and
c) what the surface looks like under magnification compared to a known stone, ie how deep the groove pattern is and if it is really finer than say a 10,000 known brand

They certainly look pretty and if they cut well at £15 they are a bargain, if they remove metal very slowly I am less interested.

etorix
16-12-10, 09:06 PM
Robin: they are real natural stone and i believe hard, so suitable for ManyNagura, possibly [i have a few JNat Naguras by now, and a couple more coming]

some of the razor guys rate em for budget stone kit, thats how i found the ebay link .. 15 quid? gimme one

as for 10-15K range, well my highest current unreals are the Naniwa SS, i have 3k/5k/8k .. what 10k is a well-known 'standard' stone?

the Sigma Power unreal-fines aint landed on my doorstep yet,

they are unknown quantity, since not generally available .. erm .. anywhere .. yet

my Nakayama [real] is absurdly fine, 20-30k estimated

xmas delivery is gonna delay me ordering up an Aoto ..

etorix
17-12-10, 02:06 AM
http://autonopedia.org/crafts_and_technology/Tools/Knife_Sharpening.html

etorix
19-12-10, 06:18 PM
Shosui Takeda combi stone arrived, nice [Speed'o'Light mate]

.. good cutting on both the black + white sides, thirsty tho, the black side is, tight scratch-patterns from both

similar size and usage to my 'sickle' farmers' stone, kinda encouragingly for me

now hes lookin in his stone-shed for a 'hard' natural for me [his shed eh .. dare i ask for pics]

i have to say, negotiating with Master Knifemaker for rocks aint the same as with stone dealers, and his eikoku [English] is very good

etorix
21-12-10, 08:52 PM
DHL delivered from Stuart at http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/

couple of hi-end SigmaPower, a Kitayama #8k, and the lowest Sigma, a #120, think i should have gone a bit higher on that one

the Sigma #13000 looks like a natural, nice box also, real class

the Sigma #10000 [SSS Brand] seems totally different, clean looking ceramic

the Kitayama #8000 is totally all in foreign, comes with interesting white nagura

that Sigma #120 looks downright savage,interesting inclusion of lapping grit too

i want / need more options in the #Xxx > #500 > #1000 range

etorix
22-12-10, 11:23 AM
stone shop http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/index.html

shop in Nagasaki called "Mandala-ya"(Japanese site)

etorix
24-12-10, 03:48 AM
aargh, started on one i wish i hadnt

an small L'Econome french cook knife from Dare .. a local cook-stuff shop with MANY Laguiole en Aubrac, and some Chun and other Japanese as well as excellent Sabatiers from 'L' en Aubrac

the carbon steel version, 12.50 gbp and i got to pick one out

laminate-wood scales, brass pins, well wavy grind, i should just have edged it

he did put it in plastic 'sheath' and wrapped it in purple tissue ..

johnq82
24-12-10, 04:21 AM
I better read through this thread or get some advice on something under $25 or my knives will have to keep using this $3 stone I got off ebay :( I actually used a belt sander last time (it was a machete though)

Xelian
24-12-10, 05:50 AM
I better read through this thread or get some advice on something under $25 or my knives will have to keep using this $3 stone I got off ebay :( I actually used a belt sander last time (it was a machete though)

If you want a decent cheap drystone for sharpening, get a Fallkniven DC4, it works fine for reprofiling and touching up as it's a combo stone.

Nightfly
24-12-10, 06:56 AM
PM me your details again. I found some coticules at the Marolles flea market. Looks like they have been around for awhile and seen lots of use, but maybe good for your "collection"?

etorix
25-12-10, 12:23 AM
Xelian ..actually i agree.. i love my DC4

but its because it couldnt quite do what i wanted to blades that i started getting into waterstones, its not all just sharpening

DC4 was kinda ok for flattening a Brusletto, but for any full-sized scandi, fuggedaboutit .. and i did try

nevermind japanese chef knifes

from what ive posted in this thread so far .. by far the best and simplest actual blade sharpener is Shosui Takeda's double wood-mounted stones ting

http://www.shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html << no 2 pdf

nice guy too, speaks excellent english

jhobson
25-12-10, 01:06 PM
Shapton 500 glass is awesome. Finer than dmt black. very fast.
A big flat stone has its uses, but so do smaller ones . . . so I need another to cut up :(

johnq82
25-12-10, 02:48 PM
I like this guy. He lives on an island in N. Japan, one big forest full of deer. He recommended me a combo stone by King, a 800/(I forgot the other).

Here's him with his stones - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpCfm5Vn24M

etorix
25-12-10, 03:09 PM
i wouldnt fancy cuttin up a Shapton Glass and the only one ive got is the 500 and its getting dished already

i might cut a slice off my King 800 tho, its far too thirsty full-size

i really like these Shosui Takeda small artificial combi stones, wicked cut on em .. the waterstone equivalent of the Diafold

i see he does bench versions of the combis with lower grits .. 6,300.00 JPY = 49.2534 GBP

johnq82
25-12-10, 03:20 PM
I'm thinking of trying one stone, combo or plain whatever I can find for a good price. I've had no luck with cheaper stones that basically look like little concrete blocks. I have a long rod sharpener but it doesn't seem to do much either. Thats why I figure I'll try and find one good Japanese water stone. The ebay guy said the 800/4000 would be my best bet if buying only one.

I need to go and read through this entire thread though, I bet I missed some good recommendations in the first few pages.

filleep
25-12-10, 03:20 PM
What an interesting clip.
I'd be tempted to invest in waterstones after that if I weren't so confident of my ability to achieve the reverse result.
new years resolution coming on.

etorix
26-12-10, 02:53 PM
look at his fingers ON the blade and the way hes shifting his whole body

looks trivial, but that guy has good technique, and hes explaining it well

cant quite identify his final finish stone, naniwa or sigma power, not sure, and im not familiar with high-grit Kings

its kinda oatmeal like my Sigma #13000 which has orangey flecks like a JNat

robin wood
26-12-10, 03:18 PM
look at his fingers ON the blade and the way hes shifting his whole body

looks trivial, but that guy has good technique, and hes explaining it well

cant quite identify his final finish stone, naniwa or sigma power, not sure, and im not familiar with high-grit Kings

its kinda oatmeal like my Sigma #13000 which has orangey flecks like a JNat

I reckon he used all kings, 1000, 3000, 8000 followed by strop with compound.

I would suggest not following his advice re having fingers touch the stone, it is a fast way to expose the red bits and the coolness and water stop you feeling that it is happening.

robin wood
26-12-10, 03:20 PM
Shapton 500 glass is awesome. Finer than dmt black. very fast.
A big flat stone has its uses, but so do smaller ones . . . so I need another to cut up :(

Useful comparison to a known grit thanks. Does it wear fast? often coarse grits wear fast and if it isn't too thick to start with it could only see a couple of years hard use, what do you think?

jhobson
27-12-10, 01:24 PM
Useful comparison to a known grit thanks. Does it wear fast? often coarse grits wear fast and if it isn't too thick to start with it could only see a couple of years hard use, what do you think?

I've only used it for an hour or so. I think it may cut as fast as my axminster 250 brick but better finish and much much harder. No sign of dishing yet. The 250 would have a glacial valley by now. Another thing that I have only just appreciated and only just noticed above (funny how you only notice things once you understand! I bet the 'red bits' comments won't help people until they have found out themselves): the shapon is very frugal on water. With the 250/800 kings you have to keep slopping on water - the 800 takes a deal of soaking before you can get started. The shapon is good to go after a 10 second dunk, holds the water on the surface well, and even when used upsidedown 'on the blade' only needs a quick splash every minute or so.
I don't think it will last a couple of years though!

etorix
27-12-10, 09:44 PM
yeah, im not keen on 'thirsty' stones either, hence this King 800 will be my only King, and in danger of having slices cut off its ends for smaller squareish bits for nagura and/or handstone use

im also going off these Naniwas, the 8k will be first to go up for sale before i knacker it, they work very well but [dunno, i just dont 'like' em, nor the Cerax 1000/6000]

this Kitayama #8000 is just such a 'friendly' stone

im looking at the options between #120 and #500

and from #500 up a bit, either a Sigma Power #1000 or a Shapton, or the Takeda mounted bench combis, i love his small stones for cut/scratch/sharpen [portability + convenience, fast to action]

no clue yet where he sources them, ie the original maker .. and in his case, i care not if they are 'thirsty' or not, they will work

my Shapton Glass #500 already shows a bit of dish

which worries me not in the slightest, it could be my lack of experience in stone management, my diamond plates are a bit too small also .. [Atoma seems to be the favorite for a flatting diamond plate]

apparently a few minutes of soak/wetting before lapping before every use will sort this out

some Naniwas AND Shaptons will 'move' between uses as they dry out in unexpected ways, a known odd resin-binder affect

trick is a short soak 'n' lap before use, and not after .. just rinse em off before puttin-away

jhobson
28-12-10, 06:44 PM
Definitely worth a look: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/

etorix
28-12-10, 10:01 PM
jhobson: what are you sharpening ?

jhobson
29-12-10, 12:11 AM
not plane blades. something bigger

etorix
29-12-10, 01:29 AM
mmm ... b i g g e r

etorix
29-12-10, 07:06 AM
Woodworking Water Stone at http://www.hidatool.com/shop/shop.html

prices for naturals seem good, shipping might be a killer tho

etorix
29-12-10, 12:00 PM
next on the stones a Poul Strande bladed scandi bought on here, and previously flattened / polished .. mostly on DC4

on the rougher Natural from 330-mate with 'Iwasaki' Shiro Nagura it instantly shows a hamon, its a layered blade

nice

still a ways to go, to be resumed when i ger back from Bristol

mainly cos the Poul strande, like nearly every blade ive stoned, has that irritating 'hollow' on the bevels -- just above the ricasso

to completelly eliminate it requires taking the whole bevel down a bit

etorix
03-01-11, 12:07 AM
and on my doormat when i got back from Bristol is a 9 1/2" long box from Japan

containing a small 'ichimai' smoothing plane, ie single-blade [no chipper], looks in not bad nick

and a blade for a wakitori-ganna, v like a kiridashi, very rusted

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/wakitori-ganna4.png

This Japanese blade for a wakitori-ganna, or plane for shaving the insides of grooves, appears to be 50 or so years old. There are no maker's marks, and we're not sure if it is laminated (although it probably is).

This blade is in somewhat poor condition. There are several large, bumpy patches of oxidation, with some spots of pitting and much general wear. The cutting edge seems to be in good condition but is slightly ragged.

Size:
L3 3/16" (80mm), while the cutting edge is about W1 1/8" (29mm)

http://picasaweb.google.com/etorix/WakitoriGanna?feat=directlink

this is mostly solid wrought iron with a tiny slice of extremely hard steel inset at the pointy end, and yes its signed

got back home at 9 pm newyearseve rather hung over still, so i got stuck into de-rusting rather than goin out again .. pics following

twill make a nice kiridashi, this

bubba-san
03-01-11, 02:30 AM
Shaptons are now available in the UK from here http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Shapton_Stones.html (no affiliation etc)

they only seem to do the glass stones but they are probably the best.

Very good usefull info , Have you tried a binsue do stone . Here is link http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp/cgi-bin/item_e.cgi?cate=9&no=22 Its a huge stone , many of the quarrys where the old stones were from ,have gone dry and lots of togishi are going to ceramics . The binsue-do is one of the natural stones that are still quite inexpensive about 25 $ USD . regards ....Bubba PS a good naguru stone will increase the polishing effect of all waterstones , it is also still affordable. Etorix that was an excellent post !!

etorix
03-01-11, 04:00 AM
aha, bubba-san excellent, thanks for your comment, all input from you here is very welcome, youve seen all this before, innit

id lost the bookmark for that site [tho i was never tempted by the full 45,000-yen togishi kit] hmm ..

bubba-san: would you recommend that polishing book? http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp/cgi-bin/item_e.cgi?cate=13&no=5 .. think i might troll about the second-hand bookshops first tho eh

i also hear lots of togishi use ceramics now for early stages, but still Naturals for finish .. myself i really love the few naturals ive got hold of so far, and i have about 7 or 8 assorted bits of Nagura + 3 artificial nagura which came with stones

the 'Iwasaki choice' Shiro Nagura really stands out .. from aframestokyo http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.yahoo.net/natural-whetstone.html

i do want more fingerstones tho

and a 'hard' natural

binsue do eh .. they also do Ara-to for 3,000 yen .. ok binsui-do in order-process

etorix
04-01-11, 02:58 AM
wakitori-ganna sharp-end http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/waki3.jpg

top view http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/waki6.jpg

'back' http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/waki5.jpg .. shiny bit is v hard steel, gray is iron

maker mark http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/waki4.jpg ..[unless its the other way up]

top again http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/IMG_4987.jpg .. i basically scraped off most of the crusted rust

judging by the color + grain this is mostly kamaji with a economical steel insert for 'most' of the cutting edge

seller estimated 50 years old, this could make it late 1940s or so, when there was little or no native steel production

so this could be a sliver of Swedish saw steel in kamaji [English wrought iron was, and is still. favored for carpenter + kitchen cutting-tools]

there are still a few microchips in the final edge, which is now arm-shaving-sharp,

since i intend using it as kiridashi i may give the back [flat side] a convex microbevel to get past the chipped-from-wear bit, keeping full flat on the main bevel << bugger that, ive taken it further

Stones used: only the black side of a Takeda combi on the body cleanup, concentrating on the cutting end to reveal lamination [if any] and to flatten the bevel and get past the microchips / wear

Time spent: at least 20 full hours actually, starting New Years Eve 11 pm

Blade cost: 11 USD = 7.07351 GBP

the bevel, once flat and past the rust, was further polished on the white side of the Takeda, followed up with time on 2 330_mate naturals and finished on the Nakayama 'Maruka'

it feels great, to be honest ..

these Takeda stones are awesome, id like bench-versions in these and any other grits hes got

Nightfly
04-01-11, 03:32 PM
Errrrrr ? Too scared to click on it

etorix
04-01-11, 10:54 PM
Russian to English translation led to

POST NOW DELETED

etorix
08-01-11, 06:46 AM
couple of naturals ordered from a japanese 'junk shop' ebay dealer just arrived, kinda interesting, both unused, both not-a-lot-of-money

this guy sells a lot of WW2 memorabilia and old dolls n stuff, but also knackered old woodworking tools, including stones, grandads' shed and house clearance kinda ting

one is a quite thin piece of like 'slate', grey, maybe 6" x 4" , and really hard, needs lapping

the other is a half a broken benchstone, creamy colored and a dense fine texture

but with a really hard tough varnish all over it, quite resistant to my diamond plates even .. possibly for storage [maybe]

both are obviously quite old, these things werent cut yesterday, but they both have a 330mate stamp on the side

etorix
13-01-11, 10:00 AM
hm .. one of the reasons i started this waterstone saga was to finally get working on some of my 'good' knifes

so next im doing up my Murray Carter OG necker, its was gettin to be in dire need of a sharpen, but i had not appropriate tools

ive seen the odd report on other forums of his cook-knifes being 'wavy' .. notoriously so even

this was also 'wavy' .. belt-ground AND its got that 'hollow' nr the ricasso, dammit

mostly its coming up ok, its polishing nicely even

but it was nowhere near flat and still needs taking back more to get rid of the 'hollow'

while i still think its an excellent piece and im not at all sorry i bought it as a gaijin / nippon-trained example

how can i put it ...

i wanted one, i had to have one and now i've got one

etorix
17-01-11, 07:03 PM
discussion of similarity of Arkansas, Washita and Charnley Forest stones: http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/advanced-honing-topics/61994-charnley-forest-arkansas-stones.html

etorix
21-01-11, 11:57 PM
ive just got hold of one of the legendary Chinese '12k' Naturals off ebay [via Poland]

astonishingly fine + hard, a finish stone, i can see how its popular with the razor boys, should be good for plane-blades too

cheap too, tho my copy is a bit small really, nice dark grey color with no veins 6" x 2" x 1" under a tenner delivered

mined in Guanxi http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lijiang_river,_Guangxi,_China.jpg

there HAS to be other stone mines in china

next up on the Stones: a English Tanto

etorix
22-01-11, 03:32 PM
Catalogue of Hones Based on Area of Origin. http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/hones/42502-catalogue-hones-based-area-origin.html

no pics at all whatsoever, but loads more locations of previous sources of whetstones, esp in the UK

etorix
24-01-11, 02:35 PM
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/guangxi/guilin/wave_subduing.htm


Sword-Testing Rock
Inside the Pearl-Returning Cave, a breathtaking sight is hidden - the Sword-Testing Rock. It is a huge stone pillar hanging down with a large upper body and a smaller lower end. Seen from afar, it may look like a pillar plunging from the ceiling into the water surface. At a closer look, surprisingly, it actually hangs at a distance of 1 cun (a Chinese unit of length, 1 cun equal to 1.3 inch) above the water and seems to be cut by sharp sword. If you are curious, you can get close to it and touch the rummy rift.

Legend has it that the General Fubo tested his sword on the rock, which gave it its present shape. When the general negotiated with the offenders in the Pearl-Returning Cave and reached a deadlock, he drew the sword and cut rocks off the huge pillar. The opponents were startled and immediately retreated.
'How far do you want us to turn back?' they asked.
'Back to where my arrow falls.' the general replied steadily.
'Ok, we agree. Let us then see how far it will fly.'
General Fubo climbed up to the Fubo Hill and shot his arrow, which flew a distance of three hills till it landed on the field from which the offenders had originally come. The offenders retreated as agreed. From then on, the rock was known as 'Sword-Testing' in honor of the valiant general.

Geographically speaking, the rift belongs to the terrane of limestone. Streams flow along it and cause corrosion, and a rift was thus formed. Today, since there is no more corrosion, the pillar cannot produce any deposits, and the rock will retain its odd shape forever.

http://www.chinaodysseytours.com/pictures-of-china/images/guilin/fubo_hill/guilin-fubo-hill-sword-testing-rock.jpg

etorix
28-01-11, 10:58 PM
waterstones testing by a Man in Japan: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/

etorix
26-07-11, 07:08 AM
next up [after a long hiatus] is a J.Wood, but this will get its own close-up
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/jwoodet.jpg
Stones used: 120 grit Shapton followed by 2 grits of Takedas' benchstones, 2 grits of his hand-stones, all 9 small Micromesh squares and a few etches

also etched out is a Nylunds / DanAndersson Damasteel Krein Regrind

stoned and etched by me
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk186/etorix_2008/dabytk2.jpg

etorix
26-07-11, 01:55 PM
i should really sum up at this stage, maybe collect all the URLs onto one post, most likely the top post, dunno

maz
26-07-11, 02:13 PM
I like the look of the Takeda wood mounted stone, I might give it a try....just not sure about the technique though as I'm trying to get away from the lanksy system and learn free hand, but the Takeda stone is a different style from conventional push the knife over the stone techniques.

etorix
26-07-11, 02:21 PM
I 100% recommend them Takeda stones

and hes a man who can do sharp

hes now run out of the benchstones, i got the last set, id get a set of the hand-stones while u still can

sevink
26-07-11, 05:28 PM
i should really sum up at this stage, maybe collect all the URLs onto one post, most likely the top post, dunno

Please do, would be very useful. Some excellent info here

etorix
27-07-11, 11:21 AM
just not sure about the technique though as I'm trying to get away from the lanksy system and learn free hand, but the Takeda stone is a different style from conventional push the knife over the stone techniques.

heh: 'get stone, invent technique'

his way aint the ONLY way, theres at least 3 ...

#1 = his way, lay the knife flat on a board in good light, edge away
#2 = these stones are fairly small, but still work fine as benchstones for smaller blades
#3 = hold the blade in yer left hand, angled so u can see bright reflected on the area you are working on, use the stone in your right ..
#4 = theres no reason why a rod cant be clamped to the Takeda handle .. for either lansky- or wicked-edge style tabletop devices

etorix
12-08-11, 02:37 PM
next up a Ishikawa SC-243 'tanto hunter in takefu shirogami san-mai from a Seki City boy

i.e 3-layer wrap from the Takefu co

outer layers seem their modern kamaji equivalent by the color, usual Seki-type rolled hammer-finish

edge/central layer is 'white-paper' Shirogami

handle is walnut, nickel bolster, pins seem steel with brass nuts, brass lanyard-tube

this is a full-tang-slotted , the blade is full-tang till just after the pins, i really like this

http://japan-blades.com/field-knives/460.html 167=100 gbp + vat/customs 36gbp

example pictured appears not stropped, mines well sharp, otherwise a bit rough
http://japan-blades.com/wp-content/uploads/sc-243-bl.jpg
and it had never been inserted to its sheath, which also has nice touches internally, ill get to em
http://japan-blades.com/wp-content/uploads/sc-243.jpg
this is a modern take in excellent materials on a traditional Nata [country-style] knife
not amazingly well finished, but robustly constructed
and thats why i bought it, i can get all the wavy bits out and have fun doing it

Kanetsune do similar but different in this takefu stock, i sold one to Penillion previously of this parish

i have 1 by Takeshi Saji, but his are slot-stick-tang, and he leaves his slot-tops open, disconcertingly

maz
12-08-11, 03:42 PM
That's really nice. Kinda like japanese loveless style.

I really like those blade styles, they are very robust and take a wicked edge.

I have the Kanetsune Akatsuki. Great camping knife. - : http://www.kanetsune.com/assets/galleries/62/kb-213akatsuki.jpg

Not a big fan of the sheath tho!

etorix
13-08-11, 05:26 PM
its comin up fairly well this, i like the construction and it 'hands' well

have to say his grind and finish is a little bit rough, but then hes not charging for that .. 135 gbp inc vat/customs or so

his full-convex is basically good

what im trying to find out next is what the outer / wrapper steel is prezackly, also its not stated which number White Steel the Shirogami is

i may ask the Takefu guys, would be nice to get a bit .. erm, once i finally catch a belt-grinder

im not that keen on the embossed pattern or the black paint,

and i have no idea how the original 'gray' effect was done, it hid grindlines well tho [gone now]

etorix
17-08-11, 08:44 AM
so i mailed Kein Furuta for more info on the steels in this piece, it looked to me to be very like the same materials Takeshi Saji used on the one he made for me


The core steel is Takefu Shiro2, and the outer layers is a kind of soft iron, not a stainless steel.
http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_w2.htm

I hope this might help you.

NICE .. is this the Takefu kamaji modern equivalent .. i want some more

etorix
24-09-11, 10:51 AM
next up, a scandi tanto in aeb-l from Maihkel Eklund, very swedish moderne [can i cast a poly hilt a la Ahti]

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss260/SFOC-Pele/eklundtanto.jpg

AEB-L from Uddenholm http://www.uddeholm.co.uk/english/90.htm


Razor Blade Steel
A razor blade must be kind to the skin. To ensure comfortable shaving, our razor blade steel (AEB-L) is suitable for hardening and grinding to a sharp edge and it is hard enough to be durable. The razor blade must be free from harmful inclusions which could cause irregularity of the cutting edge. In addition to having all of these properties, the razor blade steel from Uddeholm Strip Steel is also made of martensitic stainless steel.
Knife and Scalpel Steels
Knife and scalpel blades made from AEB-L have a sharpness and edge retention that satisfy extremely exacting requirements. Uddeholm Stainless AEB-L gives a first class edge-tool.

looked at under a glass, it seemed to show a bit of grain, so i hit it with etch, it takes a little color but no details emerging

nice grind, serious piercer tip, tiny micro-bevelled final edges

etorix
26-09-11, 05:26 PM
and AARGH both facets on each side are slightly hollow-ground in both planes, this is gonna get tricky justifying it towards the final 'flatting' stage

nice steel this tho, this AEB-L , im starting to see why the scandi-blade-makers use it so much

etorix
05-03-12, 05:04 AM
hm, Shosui Takeda did say he was gonna dig some natural stones out from his shed: http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

small but not cheap

etorix
23-12-12, 04:23 AM
im lookin at Gesshin Stones http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/sharpening-supplies/ara-toishi/amakusa.html

TB_London
23-12-12, 11:25 AM
Have you tried the artificials from JNS?
The 1k is on my list to replace my 1k Chosera when worn out.
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/Synthetic-Stones-s/1818.htm

Cheers for pointing me to this thread BTW, interesting read.

Have you tried finger stones? They're the easiest way I've found to give a hazy mirror finish on wider beveled knives

etorix
31-12-12, 07:13 PM
yeah as it goes, im about to slice up a hunk of fingerstoneish Jnat TB_London, wannabit to try? it splits easy

etorix
04-01-13, 03:04 AM
JNS 1000 Matukusuyama :: Stock Status:(Out of Stock)