Load for deer

[tenderfoot]

What do you british fellows use as a load for deer (shotgun wise)? The standard in New England seems to be OO buckshot.

Not too many people use slugs, at least where I am. It seems most shots are inside of 40 yards so buckshot has an edge in making it harder to miss. Though Im partial to slugs.

[Brainflex]

hunting of deer with a shotgun is illegal in the UK. Have to use a rifle with a minimum calibre (.243 I think), min 2100fps velocity and 1700ft lb energy.

[flibb]

Not 100% sure on this, but I think deer can be taken with a shotgun for crop protection. Its mentioned in the Deer Act 1991
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/54/contents

Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 4(2)(a) above by reason of the use, for the purpose of taking or killing any deer on any land, of any smooth-bore gun of not less gauge than 12 bore which is loaded with—

(a)a cartridge containing a single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains); or

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA).

[trixx]

Deer are not generally hunted with shotguns in the UK. As flibb says, there is a specific exception for farmers who are allowed in limited circumstances to use a shotgun if essential for crop protection.

Across the whole of the UK, effectively the minimum calibre legal for any species of deer is .243 with 100 grain expanding ammunition. In Scotland, the smaller species of deer may also be taken with .22 centrefires - basically the .222 and upwards - but for larger species it's stilll .243/100 grains.

[ANDYLASER]

I would have thought a shotgun loaded with AAA is unlikely to produce a clean kill at anything above a few yards.

[tenderfoot]

That stinks :( Thats more the opposite that it is here. There are places where it is illegal to hunt with rifle, but not shotgun (though they do make you use slugs sometimes).

If you muck up a kill with buckshot they do tend to last a few days. But with 9 .33 caliber balls it can be hard to do that. And I think slugs are (at least the ones I shoot, so this isn't all american ones) are about 1600 fps and 2600 ft/lbs energy.

[Lumalee]

As already said deer species are not normally hunted with a shotgun in the UK, but there are special circumstances for landowners where they may be used for crop protection culling, having said that using AAA in a shotgun makes it a devastating weapon. Do not under estimate the power of a 12g, when hunting overseas, using AAA and SSG in a Remmy 1187 10 shot, we were hunting wild pigs and droping them at 30 yds, even the medium sized ones at 20yds were just dropping on the spot. I am not saying that you should stretch the capabilities of the weapon you are using at the sacrifice of a humane kill, but the right combination of say SSG and a 12g make a formidable system for some quite large quarry.

[trixx]

That stinks What stinks? You asked for information and got it. I doubt you'd find many (any?) UK deerstalkers arguing that the shotgun was the weapon of choice for deer control. I've certainly never felt I was operating at a disadvantage in having to use a .243 or upwards.


If you muck up a kill with buckshot they do tend to last a few days.

...and it's for precisely that reason the use of shotguns to kill deer is so closely restricted in the UK.

[praktis]

around here in sweden shotguns are used alot for roe deer.
my favorite load is US # 2 in the right barrel and buckshot in the left (47 pellets)
max range using a shotgun on deer is 30 meters.

/Roger

[xavierdoc]

Chuck Hawks has some astute observations of the use of shotguns for killing deer. He points out the poor energy retention, inaccuracy and high ricochet tendencies of slug make it second best to rifle unless local laws dictate otherwise (as in some states.)

My shotgun is surprisingly accurate with slug, but I wouldn't consider it for deer unless a coup de grace was needed and rifle was unsuitable or unavailable.

[tenderfoot]

What stinks? You asked for information and got it. I doubt you'd find many (any?) UK deerstalkers arguing that the shotgun was the weapon of choice for deer control. I've certainly never felt I was operating at a disadvantage in having to use a .243 or upwards.
...and it's for precisely that reason the use of shotguns to kill deer is so closely restricted in the UK.

It stinks that you can't use a shotgun for deer. With a rifled barrel I can reliably nail pie plates at 100 yards (noted there not moving and are easier to see then deer but still, not bad with a shotgun). Plus come on, shooting things with a shotgun is more fun then a rifle, at least to me.

I haven't shot much rifle wise over .22lr, so I can't comment, but to heck with .243, its .30-06 or .270 for me. :]

Xavierdoc, do you mind posting a link to the article you mention? I have a hard time imagining slugs ricocheting, at least the hollow point ones or forstenel (spelling?) ones. Their just big lead balls, no?

[chewie]

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/pdf/guide_legal_firearms%20170909.pdf

[trixx]

With a rifled barrel I can reliably nail pie plates at 100 yards
With a .243 I can reliably nail deer at 250 yards.

I haven't shot much rifle wise over .22lr, so I can't comment, but to heck with .243, its .30-06 or .270 for me.

Yeah, whatever dude. You admit you haven't got much experience on which to base your comments, yet you seem intent on having an argument here. Slow weekend in Connecticut?
The deer calibre argument has been beaten to death all over the internet and it boils down to this: if you can reliably put the bullet where you aim, it doesn't really matter which calibre you choose.

I admit that there's a school of thought on the Internet that appears to believe that a near-miss will actually knock over deer, as long as the rifle makes a big bang and is called something like a SuperUltraShockAndAweFirebirdWarriorLazerGuidedScr eaming EagleF**kOffMagnum. However, independent scientific tests have concluded that a well-placed .243 round is superior to a miss with any other rifle calibre.

There are, of course, solutions out there that will bring home venison - or at least shreds of it - with a near miss. I've done some experiments with cluster bombs, 105mm artillery rounds and surface-to-surface missiles and the results have been impressive, if a little noisy. I am currently favouring an RPG for those days when I question my ability to hit a pie-plate at 100 yards, although there are some issues with fitting a sound moderator.

[xavierdoc]

:rolleyes:
:lol::lol::lol:

[xavierdoc]

Xavierdoc, do you mind posting a link to the article you mention? I have a hard time imagining slugs ricocheting, at least the hollow point ones or forstenel (spelling?) ones. Their just big lead balls, no?

Perhaps ricochet is misleading- the chuck hawks article points out that restricting hunters to slug guns, instead of rifle, for safety reasons is non-sensical. Reason given is slugs are more likely to injure fellow hunters as expanding rifle bullets will safely expend their energy on contact with brush, whereas slug will not.

Link to article here (http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm)


Conclusion

I have primarily concentrated on slug loads for hunting, for which purpose I feel that they are most appropriate. Even so, they are a stop gap alternative to a rifle, primarily useful where rifles are banned for political reasons. Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds! If you can legally hunt with a rifle, you owe it to both yourself and your quarry to do so. If not, but the law allows the use of fully rifled "shotgun" barrels and saboted projectiles, that is what you should use.

Admittedly his comments about slug in the paragraph above are primarily about smooth-bore barrels. But if you are using a rifled barrel, why not use a rifle?

[xavierdoc]

Incidentally, the guidelines in the UK suggest a maximum allowable group size of 3" for three shots at 100yds if the shooter wishes to stalk deer. A pie-plate group would not cut it.

[Lumalee]

For those that dont know, there is no special/formal exam to pass before you can shoot/hunt deer in the UK, however there are moves afoot to make it so, in the way of having DSC 1 achievement before the corresponding and suitable rifle will be added to your FAC, it may or may not happen, but it creates a bit of a catch 22 in some cases, but it is easily avoided in most cases as the course tutor almost always has a rifle for candidates to use in the shooting tests, but its the practice beforehand that can be hard to attain unless you have friends with land and equipment to shoot on and with. Speaking of which at DSC level 1 the accuracy requirement is to place a three shot group into a 4" black centred regulation target at 100yds which is still smaller than a pie plate. But let us not forget the reasoning behind this, it is not bravado, a show of manly skill, or anything else to do with the shooter, the reason is to consider the welfare of your target animal and to try and ensure a clean kill. Although all the afore mentioned things come to call in this goal, the calibre and type of weapon used is also paramount to ensure a good clean kill, personally I wouldnt use a shotgun and anykind of 12g ammo to stalk deer, I wouldnt want to have a foul kill or wounding on my conscience ever.

[tenderfoot]

With a .243 I can reliably nail deer at 250 yards.

Yeah, whatever dude. You admit you haven't got much experience on which to base your comments, yet you seem intent on having an argument here. Slow weekend in Connecticut?
The deer calibre argument has been beaten to death all over the internet and it boils down to this: if you can reliably put the bullet where you aim, it doesn't really matter which calibre you choose.

I admit that there's a school of thought on the Internet that appears to believe that a near-miss will actually knock over deer, as long as the rifle makes a big bang and is called something like a SuperUltraShockAndAweFirebirdWarriorLazerGuidedScr eaming EagleF**kOffMagnum. However, independent scientific tests have concluded that a well-placed .243 round is superior to a miss with any other rifle calibre.

There are, of course, solutions out there that will bring home venison - or at least shreds of it - with a near miss. I've done some experiments with cluster bombs, 105mm artillery rounds and surface-to-surface missiles and the results have been impressive, if a little noisy. I am currently favouring an RPG for those days when I question my ability to hit a pie-plate at 100 yards, although there are some issues with fitting a sound moderator.

When I say I don't have much experience it means Im not shooting sub MOA. Im shooting probably 2 or 3in groups at 100 yards with somebody else's rifle (I don't own one) and wouldn't take shots hunting past 150 yards because Im not a sadist. I might make a gut shot. And also, most deer that Ive seen are 180-250lbs. I don't know how big they are in England, but wouldn't feel comfortable taking a 200 lb animal with what is considered a varmint caliber in the states and is more expensive. Also, easy to find ammo is a plus (plus I can make scrooge look like a big spender). I can buy .270 win, .308 win, and 30-06 in bulk for fairly cheap AND I have access to my fathers reloading dies for them. Not only that but it is easier to find a variety of bullets to load them with, at least for me.

MOD EDIT

Perhaps ricochet is misleading- the chuck hawks article points out that restricting hunters to slug guns, instead of rifle, for safety reasons is non-sensical. Reason given is slugs are more likely to injure fellow hunters as expanding rifle bullets will safely expend their energy on contact with brush, whereas slug will not.

Link to article here (http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm)


Conclusion

I have primarily concentrated on slug loads for hunting, for which purpose I feel that they are most appropriate. Even so, they are a stop gap alternative to a rifle, primarily useful where rifles are banned for political reasons. Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds! If you can legally hunt with a rifle, you owe it to both yourself and your quarry to do so. If not, but the law allows the use of fully rifled "shotgun" barrels and saboted projectiles, that is what you should use.

Admittedly his comments about slug in the paragraph above are primarily about smooth-bore barrels. But if you are using a rifled barrel, why not use a rifle?
That does make sense. I only shoot shotgun because my parents won't let me buy a rifle. Mine is smoothbore and is more for shooting trap and just plinking. With the brush in some areas people favor shotguns, but that is down south from what Ive heard (where you rarely can take shots outside of 20 yards). IMO a shotgun is like using a club. Lots of raw power but not exactly 'precise'. Itll work, but sometimes precision beats power.

[Basemetal]

Language Greg...

[jameswood]

Mine is smoothbore and is more for shooting trap and just plinking.
im not exactly knowledgeable on shotguns but what use is a rifled one? it'll just make the shot pattern huge.

[flibb]

im not exactly knowledgeable on shotguns but what use is a rifled one? it'll just make the shot pattern huge.

They are used with some solid slug to improve accuracy.

[jameswood]

They are used with some solid slug to improve accuracy.
thanks, what's wrong with a rifle then? or is it more for the knock down power?

[flibb]

Its a bit of a horses for courses thing, partly based on the hunting rules in different countries, and partly on what habitat deer are hunted in. But a 12 bore loaded with slug is more than capable of killing a bear, and is still the backup tool of choice for US Park Rangers. I think the reason that we use rifles more than shotgun for deer in the UK, is that they are often shot in fields or moorland, where range is important, in the USA they tend to shoot more in forests. When I've been assisting with woodland deer culls in the UK the shooting has been in open rides or high points overlooking trails.

Other things to consider
Shotgun has shorter lethal range, handy if your hunting in places other people might be.
Shotgun is more suitable for moving targets.
Shotgun meats the accuracy test for DSC at 50yards, the range its generally used at.

[Vonny]

What do you british fellows use as a load for deer (shotgun wise)? The standard in New England seems to be OO buckshot.

Not too many people use slugs, at least where I am. It seems most shots are inside of 40 yards so buckshot has an edge in making it harder to miss. Though Im partial to slugs.

When I lived in New Hampshire tenderfoot I'd use a S/W 357 six shooter and sneak up close for deer, it was fun and a big change from hunting in New Zealand with a rifle, and they don't do hunting in the UK as we know it, so your not going to get any tips here. If your folks don't want to get you a rifle go for a bow mate the season runs from mid Sept to mid Dec two month more than the Firearm season.:)

[tenderfoot]

When I lived in New Hampshire tenderfoot I'd use a S/W 357 six shooter and sneak up close for deer, it was fun and a big change from hunting in New Zealand with a rifle, and they don't do hunting in the UK as we know it, so your not going to get any tips here. If your folks don't want to get you a rifle go for a bow mate the season runs from mid Sept to mid Dec two month more than the Firearm season.:)

Im simply partial to rifles and can't shoot bows well at all, though I do have access to a compound bow (it has an 80lb draw, so maybe overkill). :lol: Im planning on just waiting a few months till I turn 18 and getting a weatherby vanguard or perhaps if it is in the budget, a weatherby MK V, in 30-06 or .270 win. :]

[tenderfoot]

Haha. The christmas season is upon us. :D Talked the folks into letting me get a weatherby vanguard sporter (used) with a scope in 30-06. It should do the trick for deer. :lol: And maybe, if Im careful with a big bullet, for moose.

[John N]

tf, a lot of your posts just come across as attempts at dick swinging.

[tenderfoot]

tf, a lot of your posts just come across as attempts at dick swinging.
OK. Thats not my intent. Im just happy to have a new (to me) rifle. Thats all.

Also, I really cannot stand the double standard on this site. I cannot say a** but others can and say far worse. If im a 'swinging dick' fine. But I really think it may be time to leave. If I cannot be excited and post about it, or OMG JOKE about my purchase then maybe this isn't a good place to be a member of for me.

[John N]

edited,

sorry greg - im particularly grumpy at the moment.

[Lumalee]

Mate, youve gotta understand that most of us are twice your age, or more, and have drunk, shot, shagg&d and many other things beyond what you can imagine. I wish !!

[jameswood]

OK. Thats not my intent. Im just happy to have a new (to me) rifle. Thats all.

Also, I really cannot stand the double standard on this site. I cannot say a** but others can and say far worse. If im a 'swinging dick' fine. But I really think it may be time to leave. If I cannot be excited and post about it, or OMG JOKE about my purchase then maybe this isn't a good place to be a member of for me.
dont forget though that this is a knife forum that is slowly getting more and more off topic which many people aren't pleased about and im not saying it's just you. so the 'offtopicness' combined with the 'dick swinging' as john so eloquently put it tends to be annoying.

[Ropeman]

dont forget though that this is a knife forum that is slowly getting more and more off topic which many people aren't pleased about and im not saying it's just you. so the 'offtopicness' combined with the 'dick swinging' as john so eloquently put it tends to be annoying.

However, the question was one about hunting in a forum section called 'Shooting, Hunting, Fishing and Trapping...' so it isn't off topic in the slightest.

I'd suggest everyone calms down a wee bit.

[Muskett]

It wasn't so long ago that Roe deer we considered vermin and driven to shotguns, just like hares, in England and Scotland. Shot at 20m with large shot and followed up with dogs if need be. Times have changed and Roe have a value now and almost exclusively stalked or shot from high seats. So on a UK forum you are just not going to get anything useful... We also cannot use bows to shoot game though in France it is still popular. In fact shooting running large game isn't done here though the rest of Europe with boar hunting do plenty. Its not that the UK has gone all sentimental but with such a highly populated country sending bullets flying all over the place just isn't possible and most importantly there is such a variety of things to shoot if you want moving targets/game as there are pheasants, pigeon, geese, ducks, woodcocks, grouse, and partridge naming but a few. Its what floats the boat over here.

So to answer your question you do need to ask a closer to home forum with people who use similar kit to you. Put it like this no one in this country stalks turkeys with a modern muzzle loading rifle!

i