A question of steel and coatings

[The General]

Out of date info.

[The General]

Out of date info.

[The General]

:biggthump Open for business

[Dave Budd]

I've been using O1 a lot (partly coz i like working with it, but mostly coz I can get it fairly cheap), what do you reckon to it? Satin finish tarnishes like buggery, but rust hasn't been a problem so far. The blades that I had heat treated by an engineering company were crap, but my own treats have come oout much better. My old Ka-Bar has stood up OK and thats O1, but it is coated to prevent rust (yep looks crap aftr use), what makes it so much better than my commercially treated blades of a similar geometry?

[The General]

Out of date info.

[Dave Budd]

Bit of both I guess. I know a hand treated blade will (usually) out prform a factory job, but the ka-bar i have has way out performed the other production O1 knife I've used. Don't know who made it, its just labelled 'British Made' and has a fake ivory handle.

[The General]

What type of Ka Bar is it? I assumed you were refering to a Marine type knife varient?

[Dave Budd]

nothing special. it's the old one, based on the original USMC model form WWII. 7" clip blade, saber ground with slight fuller, black coated and stacked leather handle. Had a friend break the tip off in a tree last year and i remember it was a bugger to grind a new one on.

[The General]

Sounds nice, hope you thumped your friend! :p Sounds like you got a century knife there my friend.

[boaty]

Wayne,

do you have any experience with, or can point me to any resources about, wootz steel or the UHC steel that Roselli uses (http://www.roselli.fi/1/eng/UHC-eng.html)?

Cheers,

Rob

[The General]

I own several Damascus blades, but am not familier with Roselli damascus.

[Colin KC]

Wayne, you may be confusing glass bead blasting with the more abrasive aluminium oxide, or garnet.

Glass (virgin beads) will produce a peening effect which is as close to frictionless surface that you'll get on a steel. The appearence is a "glittery", shiny finish as opposed to alox/garnet which is dull & rough & has the problems you mentioned above.

Glass however is decidedly less prone to rust (though more prone to it than mirror polishing)

[Jason Cutter]

A late response, but my 2 cents nonetheless.

Steels - I prefer carbon steels like 1084, 1095, O-1 for the best combo of edge retention, toughness, ease of resharpening. I do believe that carbon steels cut better and have a better edge quality than any stainless.

I use stainless steels exactly for that - stain resistance. I have never found any stainless steel to match the performance of a properly HT-ed carbon steel blade on all the 3 counts - edge holding, toughness, resharpening. Modern stainless steels, especially the complex alloys and the newer dedicated knife steels like S30V are getting there, but they still compromise by being poor in one or more points. I consider the best stainless steels for MY purposes to be 440C (stain-resistance) and RWL34 (edge holding and toughness). These two hold aa decent edge without being excessively difficult to work or resharpen when required.

In addition, my argument is that high-alloys (stainless) rely on complex and probably expensive, methods to achieve a really good HT. Many makers cannot afford the necessary equipment, so send out to professional HT-ers at additional cost to themselves and the customer. Also, the knife has just moved further away from the principle of "Sole Authorship", and many artisans do NOT appreciate this interruption in the continuity of work while waiting for the piece to come back.

Carbon steels can be HT-ed at home by a competent maker with a variety of HT methods, adjustable depending on the desired use. Consider this - if I wanted a hamon, soft back draw, homogenous tempering, multiple quenches, multiple tempers etc., etc. This can all be achieved with not too much fuss on carbon steels.

I consider the tarnish on a carbon steel blade to be harmless to the task at hand. It is the mark of a high-quality tool doing its job. The care requirements of carbon steel are not at all severe. Only in the most humid or submerged environments will the advantages of stainless become known. Of course, there are those who are fixated on the "sterility" of a stain-free steel...

I have such regard for carbon steel blades, that for some customers asking for a high-performance knife for extreme conditions including moisture-laden and humid conditions, I will use a high-quality coating on a carbon steel blade. The one of my choice is KGI GunKote which I apply myself and is an awesomely durable coating. ChirsReeve Knives use it one their Green Beret Knife - thats enough endorsement for me. Its abrasion resistance and adherence to the steel is unmatched. Only problem - its hard to photograph because it is so matte.

Steel finishes are a matter of taste. A fine satin hand rubbed finish is my preferred finsih on carbon steel. Be aware that some makers use a satin hand rubbed finish to hide deeper scratches from a previous grade finish. I do my satin hand rubs by taking the grit grade past the desired grade finish and then go back one grade to the desired finish. Eg.- finish up to 1500 or 2000 or even polish, then apply the 1200grit final finish. That way, it is an "honest" finish. There would be nothing "hiding" under that 1200grit finish.

Bead blasting or shot-peining, is NOT to be confused with sandblasting. I like a very fine bead blast on stainless steels. It becomes a subtle non-reflective yet bright finish. Technically, the shot-peining also work-hardens the surface. Academically, it is supposed to ever so slightly increase the surface stain resistance and abrasion resistance.

I find no place for a mirror polish on anything. Even collectors are apprecaiting more the qualities of a nice satin hand rubbed finish.

Chemically finished surfaces are pretty much temporary or cosmetic. Blueing, etc. will rub off. Remember that many chemicals used for chemical "oxidation" of the steel could be harmful to people. Eg.- I'd avoid it on kitchen knives.

The bottom line is that, aside from Taste and Preference. Steel and finish should be determined by the desired performance characteristics first and foremost, and fashion and aesthetics a distant second.

My very long list of 2-cent pieces. Thanks. Jason.

[MattW]

Jason,
Thanks for a very interesting and informative post.
I am just starting out in knife making, but my (admitedly entirely novice) views echo yours. I have always firmly believed that form follows function, and that in nearly everything, usage should dictate such things as material choice / finishes etc.
I aspire to make knives for using and I have always liked to do everything 'in-house' whether its messing with cars or making bits of divinng gear (hence my propensity for bying tools and machines!), so I guess that I'll always be using carbon steel that I can take through from inception to finished item in my workshop.
Matt

[The General]

Great input guys, I am especially interested in the GBF differences.

[sal]

Hi General. Very astute analysis of the steels listed, IMO.

On the BG-42 / Chris Reeve issue; In our testing we found that BG-42 heat treated by Chris had better edge retention that BG used by other makers. In conversation with both Chris and Timkin-Latrobe about the heat treat, Chris does have some effective tricks.

Make sure Joyce has your address and we'll send you some H-1 to play with.

sal

[Jason Cutter]

Yes, its clear - the HT is possibly more important in the end than the steel itself. With a very good HT, even a marginally suitable steel can perform quite well. I only need to point out the proliferation of 420HC steel in production knives these days. While it may not be the cream of the crop, it performs admirably for MOST people.

I think it is important that the maker - factory or custom, use the best possible HT techniques to maximise the performance of a given steel. After initial disappointment with 440C, I was pleasantly surprised by the performance boost when a cryogenic cycle and triple tempering was used in the HT. In the same way I think, D2 and some other steels have received bad press due to their "poor performance." This is most likely to have resulted from inferior HT's.

In the same way, O-1 SHOULD hold its edge better than 1095, provided all things are equal. The only factory made O-1 knives (the most famous ones anyway) I can think of, are Randalls. I understand that they use a fairly low Rockwell hardness to improve toughness. This might explain why a 1095 blade holds its edge better than an O-1 blade. Just guessing.


Another view about blade coatings. It is important that whatever coating is used, it should not add much to the thickness of the blade. Some epoxy-coated blades rely on a very thick layer to do the job, which can change the cutting characteristics dramatically.

Jason.

[The General]

Thanks for the input Sal! You have mail. :biggthump For the group what are the general properties in you own words of H1 steel?

[The General]

Is it true that this steel is 100% rust proof? What is its make up? I am very interested.

[The General]

Updated :)

[Andy]

Does anyone know anything about AUS118? I'm guessing its AUS8 with a few extra bits in it

[The General]

It is a steel with similar properties to G2 AKA Gin-1 steel. That puts it in the 440C/Gin-1 range of steels.

Thus it is very much better than 8a or AUS-8 but not as good edge holding wise as ATS-34, RW-34, 154CM, VG10 et al.

The most important thing to consider is this steel has slightly less than 1% carbon, a heck of a lot of chrome (18% IIRC) and slight amounts of Vanadium and Moly. This gives it a good edge holding potential but with well above average rust resistance and pitting resistance thanks to the Chrome and Moly content.

It can be hardened to 62 Rc without major weakness, where 8a tops out at Rc58 maybe Rc60 before it gets quite close to the limit. Thus it will normally be hardened a couple of points higher on the Rc scale. This also combined with the greater alloy mix makes this knife a significantly more difficult steel to sharpen. For a beginner at least.

A Good all round steel in my opinion.

[French Kiss]

What about the 52100 (100Cr6) steel? looks like it gives very good results, Swamp rat's SR101 is supposed to be something like 52100, and Mike Stewart used it quiet a lot with success on his trailguide knives. I've heard you can find that steel on certain shock absorbers spring, someday I might be tempted to look after such item ;) what do you think about it?
Another question: what do you htink about TOPS knives 1095 steel and HT? I might get tempted to buy a Wolf Pup, but 75 euros for a "small piece" of black coated 1095 steel, looks a bit overpriced to me...

Thanks for your answer,

Xavier.

[The General]

52100 is a suberb carbon steel, its a ruster of course... but excellent edge holding etc, nice and tough when treated properly.

TOPS really do a nice heat treat on their 1095 steel, but it is "only" 1095 and as you mentioned they are not cheap for such a basic steel. To be honest, the steel may be a plain basic one, but its a good un and they really do a nice job with it so I think its probably worth it. :biggthump

[Kevin]

52100....can be problamatic if over heated... (brittle)...
But find a heat treatment that best compliments this steel and its wonderful.

I have some great party tricks with knives made of 52100 which demonstrates just how tuff this steel can be....makes opening cans of hot dogs childs play :) ....a common comment I get is...'if i hadnt of seen that for myself, I wouldnt have believed it'.....

I like it so much that I sold all my old steel (except for what I may use for damascus), and invested in enough 52100 to last me a couple of years!!

I am sure there are other great steels out there..but as a forger..I feel very comfortable with 52100...

[French Kiss]

Thank you all for your comments :biggthump hope our favorite knifemakers will be able to get a few bars of 52100 steel before the chinese industries buy it all :noggin:

[Stuart Ackerman]

BTW,
AUS 6 or 6a = 440A
AUS 8 or 8a = 440B
Aus 10 or 10a = 440C
Stuart

[The General]

BTW,
AUS 6 or 6a = 440A
AUS 8 or 8a = 440B
Aus 10 or 10a = 440C
Stuart

Er, wrong, not the same steels at all I am afraid. Similar capabilities as I pointed out, quite different steels though.

The 440 series generally have more carbon and more Moly as well as a lot more chromium.

The Aus series have added Vanadium though, but less moly and chromium.

For example

440a is on average 0.70% Carbon, 17% Chromium, 0.75 Moly and no Vanadium

6a is on average 0.60% carbon, 14% chromium, 0% Moly, 0.20% Vanadium

There are several differences, but I will not get anal on this. Needless to say, not the same.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Sorry about the confusion that I may have caused,
The post was done in a hurry...

As Hitachi's ATS 34 was developed as competition to Crucible's 154 CM, I was led to believe that the AUS series were intended to be competition to the 440 A,B,C and F, range.

A glance at any steel chart would indicate that they are not the same steels, or even the same manufacturer.

For example, Bohler make N690 and N695, similar, equivalent, or replacement to AISI 440 C and AISI 440 F, and their specs are also slightly off.

I should have used words such as, " similar, equivalent, or replacement for the type"

As I do not own a firearm, I will stab myself in the foot!!

Stuart

[Dave Budd]

I have a question. We all know the various steels by their american or japanese names/numbers but what about the home grown steels?

What does EN45, for example, equate to?

Also here's a stumper.

I asked for the chemical breakdown for EN45 and EN43 when I ordered a few bars last week. When it arrived the three sizes of EN45 all had different chemistry!

Why would the same steel have different ingredients/percentages for each size of stock?

[Martyn]

Dunno if this helps...
http://www.britishblades.com/steelstandards.htm

I know it doesnt directly answer your question - to that I have no idea. I would think EN45 should be the same no matter what size.

[Dave Budd]

It may do, I will have a look at the invoice sheet when I get home. Sadly I don't thinkit does though

I would think that any size of a given steel should be the same, but the breakdown gave very different analysis. Such as a range of 0.56 to 0.58 % C, and one or two elements that are listed on the larger sizes and not at all in the 1/2" !

[Martyn]

Possibly the problem may arise from EN numbers being defunct. It may be that some of your steel has been made to EN specification, while other bits have been made to the BS equivalent of EN45 (BS970: 250A53). I dont know if the newer BS steel is a direct comparison to EN45 or not, but EN (English) numbers are/have been replaced by British Standard numbers.

[The General]

Sounds right on the money to me Martyn.

[Dave Budd]

Can't they make their minds up?

You would think that the new materials would get a new name/number if they are different in composition?

Interesting though. wonder if it makes any practical difference?

[Pumbaa]

Hi , just thought i would add on here what steel i use currantly .
Basicly because i am new to blade making , I am using old car springs (was told this was a good idea whilst partaking in re-enactment ) It suits me at the momment because its cheap if not free . This enables me to practise the forgeing and shaping on inexpensive material . I guess what i am asking is , is this a usable material for blades ? or is this just another re-enactment myth ? I would be very intersted in any stories about testing blades of this material to destruction or any ideas on better "learnable" materials .
Cheers
Pumbaa

[Dave Budd]

yep, it's good stuff. most of the books list it as 5160 a medium carbon (.5-.6%) steel with a bit of chromium. particularly good for large blades, swords and rough use blades, but it wont hold the same fine edge as say O1.

I've used loads of springs and haven't had any problems with them. but if you find one thats been snapped, cracked or stessed and therefore has bent out of normal curvature, then chop it off well away from where you want it. The springs on some older vehicles and those given serious abuse do occasionally have flaws that don't show up until quenching or even use (if you stop a cracked blade with your shield the tip could carry on towards your face! ouch!!).

Make sure you anneal the spring before you forge it and you cant go wrong! Best of all, like you say, it's cheap!

[Danzo]

I found this (www.newgraham.com/steel_faq.htm) over at www.newgraham.com

Useful?

Danzo

[andy-37]

could someone give me some info on the qualities of the fallkniven steels ie the laminated blades. :)

[Andy]

very good

it's a lamintae VG10 steel with 420J2 for the outer sections. It taes and holds a good edge. I've found better then 440C and 154cm, easy to sharpen as well
The laminated blades are a bit stronger then a solid lump of VG10, The laminate blade take 105kg os so before breaking and the old solid F1 blade tok about 82kg to make it snap. I'm not sure how they were tested though.
One thing to bear in mind is the angle the edge is at, it's rather large so doesn't slice that well but it doesn't chip either.

[Andy]

does anyone have any info on T1 as a knife steel

I've been told it's similar in make up to M2 but about 20% more dense which have some rather nice affects on performance

EDIT: or M4 for that matter. I'm guessing it's another high speed tool steel


It's been suggested that I make knives from M2 as it's easy to work with. He also suggested D2 for a good knife but thought T1 would be a better knife then M2

[Stuart Ackerman]

can't be 20 % denser, impossible.... t1 is high in tungsten, and I think cobolt... bulldozer blades etc, but is classed as high speed steel, sounds like a "better" M2, but I will investigate and return with hopefully more accurate info.

[shing]

I think Farid uses T1, I like M42 myself.

http://www.faridknives.com/steelsused.htm

[Naphtali]

Recently, I have changed my knives from hodgepodge of materials to Cowry X Damascus. My variation, and there are at least two, is Cowry X and high-carbon variation of 420 stainless steel as 128 layers.

Hattori-Japan is the maker of all Cowry X blades I mention. Pocket knives (1 user and 1 back-up) are A.G. Russell's K87CW. These were advertised as "one-hand" knives, but don't you believe it. The blade is flat grind caping shape slightly longer than three inches.

I am having Hattori build to my order fixed blade knives, but I use a KD30-2A now. This closely resembles Randall's Model 5. Mine is a 5.25-inch blade, nominally .197 inch thick, with convex grind.
***
In terms of corrosion resistance, Cowry X's chemistry shows it to be slightly more corrosion resistant than D-2. Chemically, it is NOT stainless. I do not protect the blades in any way. However, when I think about it, I will strop blades along my thigh. This -- I have no idea why this is so -- protects even O-1 blades from surface rust.

Hattori claims to deliver their branded blades with Rc range of 64-67 for the Cowry X layer. I have no way of verifying this hardness range on a layered blade.

The Cowry X Damascus blades Hattori manufactures for Fällkniven Knives is Cowry X layered with VG10, with claimed hardness about Rc 64. Since the cutting core is Cowry X for either variation, I doubt VG10's inclusion is anything more than product differentiation. I further doubt that Fällkniven's Cowry X layer is hardended/heat treate differently from Hattori branded blades.
***
Regarding abrasion resistance, my Hattori Cowry X blades have, perhaps, greater edge retention in normal use than O-1 at Rc 60-62, and slightly greater than D2 at Rc 59. Compared with vaccuum melted 154-CM steel at Rc 59-61, blades are substantially more abrasion resistant. In plain English, the blades are exceptionally abrasion resistant.

Regarding ductility at hardness, blades do not appear to be affected by moderate chopping -- that is, I detect no edge roll-over.

I am not in the habit of using any knife as a substitute for axe or machete. I cannot report ductility comparison among blade steels. I am unwilling to subject any blade to being bent in a vise to discover its ability to spring back to original shape.

I would expect any steel whose hardness is as high as Cowry X's to be brittle. I also expect layering it with ductile material to mitigate much of the deleterious effect of same.

Regarding ease of sharpening, THIS IS the place where I continue to be surprised.

- O-1, even at high hardness is relatively easy to sharpen. Its blade is flat grind.

- D2, also flat grind, is significantly more time consuming to sharpen. I use a Lansky fixture to make sure the edge is regular.

- 154-CM is a bitch. Its flat grind blade is far and away the most time consuming to sharpen, even with Lansky fixture.

- Hattori's Cowry X's flat grind and the convex grind blades are comparable in difficulty. They are slightly more time consuming to sharpen than O-1 at its hardness. Part of the reason for flat grind and convex grind Cowry X blades' similarity is that flat grind is .125-inch thick while fixed blade is almost .200-inch thick. The convex grind is not exactly "sharpened." A better description of what I do is "strop," as a barber might strop his straight razor before giving you a shave. Stropping is done on abrasive paper that is wrapped around a mouse pad. This is less expensive than obtaining a leather strop and easier to obtain than abrasive paste for leather.

The downside is that this procedure, not done carefully, degrades the Damascus effect. Of course, I found this out during my first stropping.

Damascus look can be restored, but I have the knives to use rather than to look at. So I just say to myself, "Tough luck, buddy," and move on.
*****
Summary:

I chose Cowry X Damscus blades because I expected them to be as efficient as the best blade material I had actually used, in three categories: abrasion resistance, ductility at hardness, and corrosion resistance. So far this has been substantially acccurate.

Ease of sharpening was not factored because I have NEVER sharpened a knife in the field. Sharpening at home presents no serious problem. Nevertheless, ease of sharpening has been a pleasant surprise.

I chose Hattori over Fällkniven branded knives for three reasons. Hattori knives are significantly less expensive to buy (Jemmy Iwahara can be reached here. "Kencrest" <jemmy@kencrest.us>). Hattori has wider selection of blades off-the-shelf. And Hatttori will make a knife to order.
***
Are Cowry X Damascus-bladed knives worth their price premium? Definitely NO. A top-of-the-line O-1 knife's only significant inferiority is in corrosion resistance. If all I wanted were "beaters," this is where I would buy.

Am I satisfied owning Cowry X Damascus-bladed knives? Definitely YES. I bought pride of ownership in tools that will last generations of users. And nobody else on the block owns any, so I have the "oooh, neat" factor wherever I go.

[Naphtali]

I completely overlooked a superb option that I maintain in my storage. While I have not checked the web site, RAGNAR'S NORWEGIAN KNIVES may still have circa 1960s Brusletto blades made for Morseth Knives in Washington state. I bought a bunch and put them away.

Strictly speaking, blades are not knives, but using a Morseth blade as basis for a general-purpose outdoorsman's knife is a solution superior to using O-1/D2/fill-in the blank blade of similar pattern.

- Blades are laminated, therefore exceptionally ductile.

- Core lamination's Rc 61-64 yields exceptional abrasion resistance for this non-stainless steel full tang blade.

- Size and shape of blade render it nearly perfect for outdoorsman's use. For a Scandinavian laminated blade it is thick, probably a nominal .187 inch that has been descaled to about .180 inch.

These blades need their bevel profiled. What Brusletto furnishes is bargain basement. I owned a Morseth knife circa 1972 whose shape WAS this blade. Morseth's saber grind begins the bevel much higher on the blade. The blade becomes a cutting tool rather than a hacking tool.

When I bought my blades, Ragnar was retailing them at under USD 30. As I write, there is nothing on the commercial market that compares with this Brusletto blade.

Brusletto, at the time the blades were manufactured, had a 200-piece minimum for special orders. Since shape and core lamination's hardness are significantly "special," I suspect Ragnar may have obtained as many as 400 pieces. But when they're gone, that's that.

[S&B Knives]

seems a wee bit mute to pipe in here after all this talk, but the little icon at the top of the page keeps telling me to say something;)
I can say without a doubt that far beyond the smorgasbord of available materials, the last word in knife steel is the familiarity of the maker with the steel in question.
This goes especially for makers like Fowler and Goddard, who use steels that were certainly never intended for knife production 52100, and 5160.
They have both really shown that individual experiment with a particular steel is the only way to realise its worth for any one intended purpose.
That said, choose not your steel, choose your maker and his knowledge and go with that.
One last word about O-1, the rust resistance of which I must defend. A slight acid wash until your o-1 turns grey is a very good method. As well, my o-1 carry knife, used constantly, tarnishes very little. Rust never sleeps, so keep your blades awake too, by regular use and care and fear no oxidation.
cheers.

[Dave Budd]

Rust never sleeps, so keep your blades awake too, by regular use and care and fear no oxidation.
cheers.
:)

Here Here! that's exactly what I tell people when they complain that I don't use stainless!

[Wolfskin]

I have such regard for carbon steel blades, that for some customers asking for a high-performance knife for extreme conditions including moisture-laden and humid conditions, I will use a high-quality coating on a carbon steel blade. The one of my choice is KGI GunKote which I apply myself and is an awesomely durable coating. ChirsReeve Knives use it one their Green Beret Knife - thats enough endorsement for me. Its abrasion resistance and adherence to the steel is unmatched. Only problem - its hard to photograph because it is so matte.



Hi Jason

Thanks for taking the time to put up so much info. I am very new to knife manufacture (but I learn fast :) ) and this type of posting is great for getting up to speed quickly.

One question I have is where do you get the "KGI GunKote" from? I am assuming that it is something that can be done yourself. I have "Googled" it but cannot find any suppliers only companies that will treat blades for you.

Cheers
Wolfskin

[Wolfskin]

One last word about O-1, the rust resistance of which I must defend. A slight acid wash until your o-1 turns grey is a very good method.

Hi Corey

Just a quick question - you mention a slight acid wash - what exactly would that entail? e.g. what acid and what concentration?

Thanks
Wolfskin

[s30v]

hello

[Winter]

Great info.
EK knives.
http://www.ekknife.com/knives.html
Says their knives are made of HCS 1415 and I haven't seen this steel in this thread or ever heard of it.
Anyone know about this steel?

[DCL]

Nice info thanks a lot
:D

[The General]

Updated and spell checked...:X

[chaos6270]

whats the newest and best steel out , have you tried it and how does it compare to the other top quality steels , i'm aiming this at the general really
as i've read his comments on steel before and knows his stuff:)
tho any comments are welcome.........thanks

[The General]

Truthfully not much has really happened in the last few months.

There are several interesting steels in the pipe line, but the trend seems to be for super high wear resistance as the cost of all other aspects. Notably toughness and user sharpenability.

[Andy]

I wonder if that's because other industries using steel are using the steel for machine cutting tools which are more consistant. A blade for cutting rolls of paper doesn't have to deal with a user putting stress on the blade in a way it wasn't intended to cope with it. For that I would think the cost of setting the machines up to make the blades and the savings gained from doing this less often as well as reduced time spent replacing the blades becomes more important. Taking twice as long to sharpen a ultra hard blade isn't a big cost, if your machine is running with another blade whilst it's being done. Down time for doing this twice as often is.

[The General]

Good post Andy, agreed that many of the steels we are seeing are fore just such application.

There are very few steels made and intended for knives first and formost.

[benp1]

Sir, any thoughts on CPM 3V and INFI?

[The General]

Used 3V briefly and liked what I saw, INFI is A8 Modified and I have yet to use that steel.



Busse knives tend to be rather few and far inbetween in these parts. Not to mention quite expensive.

[benp1]

excellent, thanks.

have read a few busse reviews and the steel really looks awesome, haven't seen any negative views. the only thing holding me back is the price and the fact they are FUGLY

[Andy]

soupmonger might be the one to talk to about busse knives.

[Tio Loco]

Forgive me if I overlooked its' mention, but I did not see any mention of the old
L-6 steel. I made a lot of blades from it.

Easy to temper. Takes dual temper nicely. I used to heat a copper block red hot in the forge and then rub the back of the knife on the block until the edge went to straw color and then quench in oil. I bent several trial blades 90° and back without snapping the blade. The edge cracked but the knife stayed intact. It will rust, but the higher nickel content slows it a bit compared to a lot of high carbon steels.

It used to be easy to come by as most all of the old big circular saw blades were made of L-6. Fully drawn it is a joy to work in its' dead soft mode and will get as hard and brittle as glass if you desire.

I'm know there is a lot better stuff out there nowadays but for the man that wants to make his own blades it is a good steel in my opinion.

[farid]

I think Farid uses T1, I like M42 myself.

http://www.faridknives.com/steelsused.htm





T-1 is around 10% heavier than most steels due to it's 18% (W) Tungsten. For around 40 years it was considered the best steel for cutting tools in the engineering industry, now it is very expensive to manufacture due to the price of Tungsten. It was patented by Crucible steels.

M2, M42, M7, M35 and many other steels I can mention are NO match for the
T-1’s cutting ability and wear resistance. This steel requires 2350 F to
heat-treat.


regards
Farid

[hedwa]

Hi

I have a carbon steel knife and it is prone to rusting. Is there a product which I could coat it with which would not change the thickness or colour of the knife to much (E.G clear) but would prevent rusting.

[JMS]

Hello, great summary !

My few comments below:

I mostly agree except with BM's version of ATS 34 that was in my opinion of poor consistency, from brittle to good.
There are a few missing other steels which are not bad at all and would have merited a word. Aogami, shirogami, are great, specially in sandwitches, aogami is tougher, and shirogami has a fine grain and gets a very fine edge, Yet they are steels that are left between 60 and 65 HRC (63 for shirogami). 19c27, 13c26, the new 14C28 also come to my mind as I discussed them elsewhere recently . M2 is in my experience much much better in edge holding than ATS34. I have met great D2 aking reasonably thin edges from Dozier and Queen.

Indeed the heat treat makes a whole difference, specially in some sensible very high or quite low carbon (SS or not) alloys.

As a finish, because it is hardly a coating, I like on carbon steel knives a ferric-chloride finish rubbed with 000 steel wool , as it protects from rust quite nicely, like a natural patina does.

[The General]

While hardly intended to be a comprehensive round up of steels, these are all steels and alloys I have used and own.

I can't honestly comment a great deal on materials I have not tested and tried.

Specs on paper are only part of the argument.

I am always willing to test out steels and alloys of course but seriously don't intend to invest in any of the steels you have mentioned. So I won't be adding them to the list.:)

[RSF]

I have a question. We all know the various steels by their american or japanese names/numbers but what about the home grown steels?

What does EN45, for example, equate to?

Also here's a stumper.

I asked for the chemical breakdown for EN45 and EN43 when I ordered a few bars last week. When it arrived the three sizes of EN45 all had different chemistry!

Why would the same steel have different ingredients/percentages for each size of stock?

I'm guessing,the blocks you ordered were cut from bigger blocks and some parts could of gone more to the bottom (or any direction,leaving you with blocks which had loss the added materials threw the going seperate ways,If you get what I mean.

What is considered the best when it come to making a nice long lasting knife?

[easy]

how about RWL34 ?

[The General]

how about RWL34 ?

This is one I can comment on as I do have a knife in this steel. Its an improved particle metallurgy version of ATS-34 or 154CM. I believe there is an American version known as CPM154. They are in my tests slight but barely noticeable improvements over the previous types. They are I guess on a production basis more consistent and have a finer grain. Either way I could not really tell any noticeable difference in the testing I did. Limited as it was. Edge retention wise, I really would struggle to blind folded tell the difference.

I am told these steels (RWL34 and CPM154) are much tougher and less prone to chipping or fracture than the previous ATS-34 and 154CM. Hence they ought to give better results in larger harder use blades.

[Rick Lowe CPM]

A T1 is a HSS - high tungsten (18%W - 4% Cr- 1%V) steel look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_speed_steel
http://www.diehlsteel.com/t1.aspx
Used for cutting tools - mills drills etc
History http://www.ehow.com/list_6050282_properties-t1-steel.html
Hope it helps!

[Rick Lowe CPM]

FARID
What about the CPM Rex T15 we use for aerospace broaches and hobs? http://www.crucible.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpmt15t.html
12% W, 4.9%V, 4% Cr, 5%Co...... its almost like a belt busting American breakfast - carbides, carbides carbides! Underharden for toughness ,,,, what do you think?

[farid]

Hello Rick, how are you.
yes CPM Rex T15 is a great steel but my latest project that involves a high end Crucible steel are two choppers made from 12mm thick CPM REX 121, as you know very well it is the only steel Cricible has ever made that approaches around 71-72 RC.
talk later
Farid
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?111971-Farid-CPM-REX-121-knife&highlight=farid

[tamoko]

Any opinion about RWL34 vs BG42?

[The General]

Any opinion about RWL34 vs BG42?

I really like BG42 and RWL34. BG42 is an improved version of ATS-34 and 154CM and its incredibly clean. My understanding was it was developed for turbine fan blades. If I were to say I could really notice a performance difference between the two steels that could not be attributed to other factors such as heat treat, blade size and geometry and importantly style and thickness. Well I would be a liar.

I have used both and both are excellent stainless steels. I think BG42 probably slightly edges ahead in performance terms. Though that is almost certainly my bias as I have a soft spot for this steel.

[tamoko]

I ask because i have read lot of posts: "BG-42 outperform ATS-34".
And ATS34/154CM very same to RWL34. So it is possibly BG-42 outperform RWL in edge performance?

[Canadian_Mike]

Just for the sake of adding, I've been making knives out of O1 for the past four months, haven't seen any rust (just a slight oxidation in places where moisture has set) but recently I came across the mindset of treating some blades in hot white vinegar, creates a nice dark gray oxide on the knife, and none have shown any corrosion at all so far. Mind you I haven't gone to see with them yet, but sitting around in the damp garage in storage containers unfinished except for the vinegar treatment, not a mark on them.

[Ballenxj]

Some steels I have used (inc actual knife also as an example, though not in any way a comprehensive list. I own many many knives!) and general comments about them...
A very comprehensive list. Thank You. :)
I have to ask what methods you use in these tests for consistency sake?
On another forum we have a guy that tests his steel by cutting 1/2" rope using no more than 15 LBs of downward pressure. When the blade no longer cuts through the rope at 15 LBS, the test is over for that blade. The number of cuts is how they are rated. ;)
I'm just wondering how you benchmark them?
-Bruce

[MarkB]

Out of date info.

This information was used by me rather a lot for reference.
If you do not mind me asking, is it removed or is it being replaced with up to date info?