View Full Version : Chinese vs Japanese swords; discuss ?
Its just occured to me that despite a lot of similarities between the two cultures Chinese and Japanese swords seem to be very different. It is my understanding that sword making techniques, like written language, came to japan from china via Korea.
I wonder what influences led Japanese bladesmiths to develope the katana into such a distinctive design, especially since it is executed in small medium, large and extra large sizes ( tanto, wakizashi, katana and the really big one for turning horses into kebabs)
I think I remember reading (I think it was in the samurai sword by J. Yumoto), that Japan borrowed heavily for the design and manufacture of thier early swords from China. I think he said legend has it that the really early Japanese swords were total crap and following a big battle where most of em got broken, the emperor ordered that better swords be made. Apparently it heralded something of a renaissance in Japanese swordmaking, but they studdied Chinese swords to get the techniques.
In early Japanese history, the ancient period before about 700AD, the Japanese were somewhat technologically inferior to the Chinese and Koreans. I think the Japanese swords of this period were cheap and nasty copies of thier Chinese and Korean betters.
I think it all turned round with one swordsmith about (hang on, checking book...)
...the year 900AD, a smith in Hoki by the name of Yasutsuna began forging excellent Samurai swords.
I think that's where it all turned round.
Very vague I know, sorry. :)
keith_beef
22-01-06, 06:40 AM
Could it also have something to do with the Japanese deciding to have nothing to do with the rest of the world for a few centuries, and so finding their own way of doing things?
K.
a few my thoughts
what kind of swords are you refering to?
certainly the jian/ straight double edged style sword is very different from the tachi or katana but the dao/ single edged broad sword is not too removed from the shape of the katana.
the early japanese swords were very similar straight doube edged swords. They are not as practical when raising the sword above the head to block or make a cut though as there is an element of danger form the non leading cutting edge (although the straight jian mainly cut from the tip).
you see this difference in chinese sword play where it is the broad sword which is generally only raised above the head.
there is also the influence of horsemanship on te design of the sword. the tachi
which is essentially a calvalry sword and the precurser to the katana was the result of the need to be able to draw the sword one handed whilst mounted and safely over the head of the horse.
the curvature also allowed a more decisive and devastating cut/ slice.
its also interesting to note that with the dutch trade and influence the curvature of the katana became less so and there are some edo katana that are all but straight and used in a kenjutsu style which concentrated more on tskui/thrusting rather than cutting.
Anarcus
25-01-06, 10:37 PM
Thats some answer :D
Nice thread, I just learnt sumit
I'm sitting here holding a Burmese 'Dha' which is a loose term for a family of swords found throughout Burma (Myanmar) and the more Northern parts of Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam.
My one has a 21" blade, very similiar to a tulwar in shape, but with a shallower curve, and a 12" bamboo handle, not unlike a wazikashi. Sheath matches the handle.
It's without a doubt one of the most effective swords I have ever handled, including Ninja swords, before Mojo jumps in.
:rolleyes:
It is incredibly fast in one hand, but capable of delivering really quite scary blows when used two handed. I cut through half a pig with it once, a dead one, of course, but for a blade that is less than an inch thick for half of its length thats quite impressive!
Other than the Kris the weaponry of what used to be called Indochina is still not highly valued. It's a real shame as the different versions of the 'dha' really are interesting pieces, and unlike the Kris they rarely harbour evil spirits.
I'm not joking about the last bit and only people with some familiarity with old Kris blades will know what I mean, eh, Yusuf?
;)
Danzo
Danzo's quite right. There's loads of other examples of curved sword blades similar in design all across Asia/the East.
It does make you wonder why the Japanese blade is really considered as something so revolutionary and stand-outish above all the others???
....I mean apart from its unique (hmmm scandanavian blades) fabrication.
Wayne D
26-01-06, 08:50 PM
As you say the partialy curved blades similar to the dao and Katana are seen right across the Asian continent in single and double hand formats.
hardly suprising as many have said there are only so many solutions for the 'perfect' weapon.
Again I'm going to mention my own Ancestry (sorry folks :rolleyes: ), over 1800 years ago amongst the Kshatrya (one of the castes of the Romani people), the swords used curved blades very similar to the wakazashi ranging in size from 18" to 26" , these were quite regualrly used in pairs and their descendants can be seen in the Kindjals of the Cossacks; although the Cossack (or Kuzhack) Kindjal tends to be a single handed grip.
personaly I think the Katana is a fantastic weapon , but it isn't unique and I do feel that a lot of the mystique and awe that sourrounds them comes not from the weapons, but the Samurai who wielded them.
Shinken
26-01-06, 10:12 PM
As with mosy things good, form follows function!
:jason
ggfh666
27-01-06, 11:08 AM
It's a hamon thing....
james koji
27-01-06, 11:30 AM
It's a hamon thing....
yep, I think so too. that and the samurai thing. Actually, the samurai have their equivalent in all cultures. In south east asia, they have curved swords too...the pedang, golok etc.
I blame Ieyasu & Munenori!
but they are all soo pretty how can i choose? he he
Crandart
28-01-06, 05:48 PM
The Japanese sword has evolved from the original straight shape probably in part due to the production of the hamon as a straight blade when quenched to produce a Hamon will end up curved. There has been a great variation in styles with the area of maximum curve being towards the point, the handle or as in most modern blades in the centre of the blade. I think the greatest difference in styles is in relatively close era; the Nambukocho blades were very heavy, little curvature and taper, and very long wicked looking Kissaki ( the point), the Kamakura blades tended to have large curvature, nice taper, light and with a relatively small kissaki, very different. Also as warfare changed swords were shortened as the emphasis was more on foot rather than mounted troops.
The best of the modern Japanese smiths are producing swords on a par with the best Koto ( pre 1600) blades. Guys like Yoshindo Yoshihara and his brother, are able to produce the tempetature gradient across the blade neccesary to produce Utsuri ( a shadow of the hamon further up the blade) and are re-discovering some of the lost secrets.
The point I'm trying to get to is, the Yaki Ire is the real spark of genius, many cultures have produced similar shaped swords and swords with even more complex construction e.g. the Vikings and Saxons, but did anyone use a similar method of hardening the blade and produce a hamon??????
dtalbot
28-01-06, 10:57 PM
I'm sitting here holding a Burmese 'Dha' which is a loose term for a family of swords found throughout Burma (Myanmar) and the more Northern parts of Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam.
My one has a 21" blade, very similiar to a tulwar in shape, but with a shallower curve, and a 12" bamboo handle, not unlike a wazikashi. Sheath matches the handle.
;)
Danzo
Now that I'd love to see! will it be visiting Wirksworth?
Now that I'd love to see! will it be visiting Wirksworth?
Sure. I carried it strapped to my backpack for eight weeks from the Burma/Thailand border, via Laos, all the way down to Ko Tao, so I guess I can manage Derbyshire!
:D
Danzo
....in fact if you are in Nottingham over the next two weeks then you can pop in and borrow it for a proper play if you want David. I'm off on paternity leave from Monday so I'll be in all the time.
Danzo
I personally think that the Japanese blades are entirely unique. I don't think you will find the same refinement in design coupled with methods of manufacture, use and even religeous significance anywhere else, and this is meant with no disrespect to any other culture.
What started out as a straight blade made its journey in both shape, cross section and craftsmanship to something that paired perfectly with those who used them. The original manufacturing methods were taken on board from China but after that the entire culture of the nation became almost inextricably interwoven with the sword.
I certainly know of no other culture that took the sword to such a level.
They formed a fundamental part of the Japanese belief system, at least to those who claimed the right to wear and use them.
I honestly feel that no other edged weapon is as evolved as the Katana taking into account how it is used, how it is made to be used, its symbolism, significance and ability in the right hands.
dtalbot
28-01-06, 11:47 PM
....in fact if you are in Nottingham over the next two weeks then you can pop in and borrow it for a proper play if you want David. I'm off on paternity leave from Monday so I'll be in all the time.
Danzo
May be a plan in that, I finish with DTI on Tues then have almost all of Feb off before sarting back at BGS (or anywhere but BGS if I get my wish,, anyone looking to hire a strategist?;) ) so may have time to pop over.
Cheers
David
I personally think that the Japanese blades are entirely unique. I don't think you will find the same refinement in design coupled with methods of manufacture, use and even religeous significance anywhere else, and this is meant with no disrespect to any other culture.
What started out as a straight blade made its journey in both shape, cross section and craftsmanship to something that paired perfectly with those who used them. The original manufacturing methods were taken on board from China but after that the entire culture of the nation became almost inextricably interwoven with the sword.
I certainly know of no other culture that took the sword to such a level.
They formed a fundamental part of the Japanese belief system, at least to those who claimed the right to wear and use them.
I honestly feel that no other edged weapon is as evolved as the Katana taking into account how it is used, how it is made to be used, its symbolism, significance and ability in the right hands.
No arguments there from me about how deeply ingrained into the psyche of Japan the sword became. MacArthur knew what he was doing when he banned the manufacture of them at the end of the war. State, faith and self belief all became tied up in an iconic symbol.
My point is simply that there are an awful lot of fascinating swords across SE Asia, many of them made to a high standard, yet in the West we become very fixated on Japan and on the Kris, to our own loss.
Danzo
Other than the Kris the weaponry of what used to be called Indochina is still not highly valued. It's a real shame as the different versions of the 'dha' really are interesting pieces, and unlike the Kris they rarely harbour evil spirits.
I'm not joking about the last bit and only people with some familiarity with old Kris blades will know what I mean, eh, Yusuf?
;)
Danzo
yep ... as a trained scientist thingy i am not susceptible.. but at least two of my old indonesian blades have had to be chucked in the river cause of the trouble they caused wherever they resided,.. my house.. friends houses or even at the local mosque :] :yuck:
as to the chinese sword vs Japanese .. hmmm .. in single combat the straight sword, as Japanese masters recorded, is much more efficient but for the context of fightin as it happend in a pre firearm age the curved sword was the tool of choice.. be it the chinese sabre, broadword or da dao... jpanes katana or nodachi...:)
cheers
ug
ps one of the more interesting thngs to note is how Zen poetry often used Taoist martial imagery from first hand experience.. sort of contradicting the isolatioist mantras ofboth nations .. and indicating that weapons technology must have also been shared
err..just also to add . yes .. thai and burmese dha/da .. very good and much more suited to the tasks than similarly sized wakizashis... ;)
The master returns!
:love29:
Danzo
yeah right .. just read that off the back of a duvel bottle :) (ok ok the monks are getting a bit verbose these days)
you need to ask Father Colin about using katanas to slice up fruit being thrown at his head 8)
yep ... as a trained scientist thingy i am not susceptible.. but at least two of my old indonesian blades have had to be chucked in the river cause of the trouble they caused wherever they resided,.. my house.. friends houses or even at the local mosque :] :yuck:
as to the chinese sword vs Japanese .. hmmm .. in single combat the straight sword, as Japanese masters recorded, is much more efficient but for the context of fightin as it happend in a pre firearm age the curved sword was the tool of choice.. be it the chinese sabre, broadword or da dao... jpanes katana or nodachi...:)
cheers
ug
ps one of the more interesting thngs to note is how Zen poetry often used Taoist martial imagery from first hand experience.. sort of contradicting the isolatioist mantras ofboth nations .. and indicating that weapons technology must have also been shared
Yusuf I'd love to hear your stories about those kris sometime...they are indeed very mystical weapons .
no probs.. next hammerin get together ... and i'll even bring a couple along for 'raising hair on back of neck' testing :)
sirupate
04-02-06, 12:37 PM
The early japanese swords like the chokuto and ken were heavily influenced by Chinese and Korean manufacturing methods and style of sword, indeed one the most highly rated sword smiths of Japan in the early period, was a Korean.
The Japanese sword as we know it today began to take its shape in the early Heian (782-1184) Period, when the smith (Kaji) Amakuni made the sword known as Kogarasu-maru (The Little Crow), which had a distinctive curve. The next development during the Hein period was the Shinogi (ridge line), which was perfected by the smiths, Sanjo Munechika, Yasutsuna and Tomonari. The Shinogi Zukuri (Ridge style) Japanese sword is the type most associated with Japan today, and their were basicaly two types the Tachi which was worn by the higher class Samurai and the Uchi gatana (it was recently discovered that it was in use during the Heian period) the forerunner to the katana.
What made the the Shinogi Zukuri katana Tachi/Katana special? the main thing is that it was the first sword produced that was capable of effective offense and defense. We did not have a simalar sword in terms of capability until the 15th. century, the Royal Armories demonstrated this on the History channel about 4 years ago fairly effectively, but even then the were not sure how it would eventually compare to the old bujustu (not budo) of Japan.
On top of this the best Japanese swords are superby constructed, and there durability was tested in full by the Mongols, the Koreans, the Chinese Imperial Guard, etc. And when the first westerners went over to Japan (ie.the likes of Will Adams), they held the Japanese swords in very high esteem.
To say the best made Dha are equal to the best made Wakizashi and maybe even better, is not correct, the dha are very cumbersome to use compared to a wakizashi and do not have the same build quality, I've hanled quite a few of both over the years, and the best made wakizashi are on a par with the best made katana, as for traditional Kris they were renowned for being brittle.
Regarding Japanese sensei saying strait swords are beter than curved, thats a new one on me, and infact historically incorrect. The only genuine comparison and records ever done of straight V curved was the actual life and death duels recorded between epeeists and saberists, the saberists actualy came out on top with their curved swords.
Pics below of tachi and katana, sorry about the poor picture quality;
http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2006-02-01_195136_japBB_012.jpg
http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2006-02-01_195148_japBB_011.jpg
http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2006-02-01_195201_japBB_009.jpg
http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2006-02-01_195212_japBB_002.jpg
Cheers Simon
To say the best made Dha are equal to the best made Wakizashi and maybe even better, is not correct, the dha are very cumbersome to use compared to a wakizashi and do not have the same build quality, I've hanled quite a few of both over the years, and the best made wakizashi are on a par with the best made katana, as for traditional Kris they were renowned for being brittle.
Hi Simon, not seen you around here for a while! I hope all is well. Just to clarify my point, I wasn't suggesting that even the best Dha/Dao are anywhere near the quality of the best Japanese swords, simply that we pay very little attention to them in the West in comparison to Japanese weapons, which is a shame as they are fascinating weapons in their own right.
And much, much cheaper.
;)
Danzo
sirupate
04-02-06, 01:09 PM
Hello Danzo,
I've popped in from time to time;) From that respect I totally agree, and also in regard to European blades as well.
There are many fine and extreemly well made blades across the World, and none should be ignored;)
Cheers Simon
hey dude
wow.. thats some real knowledge there but i won't bow to your greater wisdom.... the best dha, and i still have a few, are at least equal to the meagre poor mans wakizashis that i have used.. the main prblem is that using ryuha forms and cutting techniques actually goes against the basic premise of a dha .. tha balance point maniplation and pulling method for dha are not contained inside Japanese forms.. indiginous thai and burmese sword methods, closely related to Kalaripayyatu, really highlight the greater potential of the dha... we have to remeber that the Thais also succesfully used dha against all comers... ;)
as for construction.. i took one to the frst hammerin which was multiple quenched with beautiful lines, inlaid with buddhist scriptres in silver, all the spiritual stuff of Japanese swords and about a tenth of the price of a nbthk showa era blade i practice with .. it even got Doc Price a bit excited... :O
as to straight vs curved.. hmm .. i do ow to your greater knowledge
good training :)
ug
sirupate
05-02-06, 11:26 AM
Hello Ugug,
Its very interesting what you say abot the Thai's/Siamese, you might be interested in this little bit of well documeneted history then;)
Krabi Krabong (Sword and Staff fighting) the military form of Siam probably had its origins from the Sino-Indian battlefields; it was further developed by the Japanese Samurai Warlord Yamada Nagamasa (Nizaemon), in the 17th century when he and 800 Ronin (wave men, master less Samurai) helped put down a rebellion on behalf of the King of Siam.
Cheers Simon:)
Minotaur
08-02-06, 04:07 PM
The change in Japanesse sword design came from their first battle with the Mongols, who used curved swords.
What little I know about it agrees with what someone said earlier, that after losing big time, the call went out to re-think what they used, and how they used it.
Old Krises need to be treated with a hell of a lot of care. Their legends all say that a Kris will give it's rightful used another gift, i.e. they can find certain things, right up to ones that call all but the rightful owner. They also do not like to be put togeather so the more you have the more problems you get. Just as a minor point, be really careful with the blades as they were often poisoned.
sirupate
08-02-06, 04:33 PM
Hello Minotaur,
This is a quote from an earlier post on this subject
The Japanese sword as we know it today began to take its shape in the early Heian (782-1184) Period, when the smith (Kaji) Amakuni made the sword known as Kogarasu-maru (The Little Crow), which had a distinctive curve. The next development during the Hein period was the Shinogi (ridge line), which was perfected by the smiths, Sanjo Munechika, Yasutsuna and Tomonari. The Shinogi Zukuri (Ridge style) Japanese sword is the type most associated with Japan today, and their were basicaly two types the Tachi which was worn by the higher class Samurai and the Uchi gatana (it was recently discovered that it was in use during the Heian period) the forerunner to the katana.
There were some changes after the expeditionary force of the Mongols in 1274 (Kamakura period 1185-1332) and the invasion proper in 1280, although the tachi of the time were excellent in the civil wars previous to the Mongol invasions, they were not designed to pierce or cut through the tough leather armour favoured by the Mongols, so they lengthened the point, made the swords broader and the hamons larger. However the basic shape did not really change from the improvements made in the Heian period, so the tachi had developed a good curve a century earlier. The Mongol cavalry sword which was the forerunner to the Tulwar, had a distinct disadvantage to the Tachi, in that when it was parried it was to light to re-direct quickly enough, and was primarily an offensive sword.
Where as the tachi was both offensive and defensive and without doubt gave the Samurai a great advantage close in against the Mongol, Chinese and Korean troops involved in the invasion.
With regard to traditional kris, although they often had lovely patterns and and a lot of care went into the making of them, they were remnowned for being brittle, so it was not uncommon for warriors to carry several into battle with them, so that when one broke they had another to hand quickly.
Cheers Simon
Hmmm. Interesting debate.
The keris, as far as its use in Indonesia is concerned, is primarily as a talisman. There are some schools that use keris in their fighting techniques, but not the valuable ones. When I was in Indonesia I had an opportunity to look at a few nice examples, some of them valued upwards of $20,000. That's for the blade alone, no fittings.
Such talismen can be various artifacts, such as spearheads, and dont just have to be the 'standard' dagger.
As part of the cleaning process, a solution using arsenic is used. This may have contributed to the stories about keris being poisoned. Some may even have been, but not by anyone who knew about their correct use.
You can 'read' the supposed gifts of a keris by the pamor. Different pamor relate to different properties. There is no reason why you cant have several keris in one location at any time, certainly no accuracy in the statement that the more you have, the less lucky you are. Keris can reportedly be particular regarding 'ownership', but it is important to treat them appropriately. The owner should be sincere in their appreciation of the keris and make it offerings of flowers and incense. You dont 'buy' a keris, but rather offer a 'dowry'.
There are numerous details that I wont go into regarding keris, but the knowledgable Indonesian collector will be aware of them.
On the matter of straight vs curved blades in combat, I understand Sir Richard Burton favoured the rapier. He certainly had some practical experience, so his opinion must count for something. A friend of mine who studied swordsmanship in Japan, including the Yagyu ryu, also studied western methods under Hank Reinhardt. My friend also favours the rapier.
The Christian crusaders must have left a lasting impression regarding their effectiveness with the sword, because the design was copied and later used by various North African tribes. There is an example of an antique one here:
http://oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1329
On the use of the sword, you have to be careful with your sources.
I can remember a program made some years ago, Decisive Weapons, that used to be narrated by Sean Bean. One of the main 'experts' was Victor Harris, a kendo practitioner and translator of 'A Book of Five Rings'. I understand he is also retained by the British museum. Harris has no training in traditional Japanese swordsmanship. Meik Skoss, a holder of the Menkyo Kaiden in the Yagyu ryu had this to say about Harris's translation:
"Victor Harris should be commended for his attempt to provide a translation of the work by Musashi. It is very unfortunate, though, that he fails so completely. There are an awful lot of egregious mistakes in the introductory sections alone and his interpretation of the actual text of Gorin no sho (the title in Japanese) is not so good.
http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss5.html
It is interesting how someone can be considered an 'expert' in the use of weapons and yet not have a clue as to how to use them. Harris and others were happy to expound on the wonders of the Japanese sword. One of these experts was happy to waffle on about the unique layered method of construction. Clearly he had never been to the British Museum to see the Sutton Hoo sword then...
I am more interested in what people like Hank Reinhardt have to say. He has been studying the use of swords for over 50 years now, and has continued the research of the renouned authority Ewart Oakshott. Real hoplology as opposed to 'antique collecting'.
You can read some of Hank's opinions here:
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/hrinterview.htm
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/hrinterview3.htm
And some Oakshott
http://www.thearma.org/oakeshottinterview.htm
If you want Japanese information:
www.koryu.com
And Hoplology from the inheritors of Donn Draeger's work:
http://www.hoplology.com/
There is no doubt the Japanese brought the manufacture and use of the sword to a high art. Better than the work of Toledo and the Spanish schools? The Conquistadors were somewhat more successful than their Japanese counterparts when it came to Empire building. Without a doubt and contrary to what has been written in much of the martial arts press, the Spanish methods strongly influenced Filipino martial arts.
It is far easier to appreciate the Japanese sword because of the fine condition of many very old examples, the cultural reverance for the sword within Japanese society, its continued manufacture and the existance of a few koryu. By comparison, the sword was not an elite status symbol in China and could be used by commoner and noble alike. There was not the cultural reverance and combined with the political situation, you don't have the continuation of the craftsmanship.
My own training has been in the used of the Chinese sabre. I dont consider the method to be inferior to the Japanese methods. Just different, and designed for different circumstances.
Anyway, thats enough from me. I'm off to bed!
sirupate
28-04-06, 08:15 AM
Hello Mike,
Some very interesting points;
The kris was and still is used as a talisman, but traditionaly its original use was as a weapon, for which it was renowned for being brittle.
As for for thrusting V cutting, this is a debate that I still find intriguing, the epee is the ultimate thrusting duelling sword, and there were a series of actual duels between saberists and eppee experts to see which was better, the saber came out on top, for various reasons.
As for the debate on the Gorin No Sho translations thats a long standing one, and every one there has there own agenda, and perhaps the only person that could genuinley actualy understand it anyway, was Terao Nobuyuki.
By the way Victor Harris whom I have had the pleasure to meet, is a world renowned expert on the Japanese sword, and even the Japanese sword comunity hold him high regard, at least the ones I have met.
Cheers Simon
I can remember a program made some years ago, Decisive Weapons, that used to be narrated by Sean Bean. One of the main 'experts' was Victor Harris, a kendo practitioner and translator of 'A Book of Five Rings'. I understand he is also retained by the British museum. Harris has no training in traditional Japanese swordsmanship. Meik Skoss, a holder of the Menkyo Kaiden in the Yagyu ryu had this to say about Harris's translation:
"Victor Harris should be commended for his attempt to provide a translation of the work by Musashi. It is very unfortunate, though, that he fails so completely. There are an awful lot of egregious mistakes in the introductory sections alone and his interpretation of the actual text of Gorin no sho (the title in Japanese) is not so good.
http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss5.html
It is interesting how someone can be considered an 'expert' in the use of weapons and yet not have a clue as to how to use them. Harris and others were happy to expound on the wonders of the Japanese sword. One of these experts was happy to waffle on about the unique layered method of construction. Clearly he had never been to the British Museum to see the Sutton Hoo sword then...
I am more interested in what people like Hank Reinhardt have to say. He has been studying the use of swords for over 50 years now, and has continued the research of the renouned authority Ewart Oakshott. Real hoplology as opposed to 'antique collecting'.
Mike, I'm afraid I must point out the glaring contradiction you make in which you state that Victor Harris is a "kendo practitioner" and then go onto state how he "(does) not have a clue on how to use them", that is weapons or rather swords.
Admittedly an exponent of kendo could not truly call himself a practitioner of a traditional koryu, but I think your statement is somewhat naive and perhaps misinformed. Mr Harris was, as sirupate said, the head curator of oriental antiquities at the British Museum for many years and a former patron and founder member of the British Kendo Association, which is this countires "branch" (for want of a better word) of the ZNKR, one of Japan's principle governing bodies on modern kenjitusu.
I find it hard to believe that througout his studies that Mr Harris has not studied and had tutelage in some of the many styles of kenjitsu still in existence.
In respect to Go Rin No Sho (Book of Five Rings), Harris was the first person to translate it into English. It is considered by many to be one of the best translations available, particularly from a kenjitsu point of view. After reading many different translations I am inclined to agree. I find it is one which is the least interpretive and does not confuse the reader into deriving particular meaning or understanding from the text, unlike some of the other versions I have read.
It is far easier to appreciate the Japanese sword because of the fine condition of many very old examples, the cultural reverance for the sword within Japanese society, its continued manufacture and the existance of a few koryu. By comparison, the sword was not an elite status symbol in China and could be used by commoner and noble alike. There was not the cultural reverance and combined with the political situation, you don't have the continuation of the craftsmanship.
My own training has been in the used of the Chinese sabre. I dont consider the method to be inferior to the Japanese methods. Just different, and designed for different circumstances.
The sword was not always an elite status symbol in Japan, really only from the Edo period onwards - from which time the cultural reverence really took hold. IIRC commoners were permitted to carry a short sword for quite some time throughout Japanese history.
Was it not the case in China that the Dao was the sword of the commoner and the Jian that of the nobleman?? I thought the movements of Jian were supposed to reflect that of the refined, and studied movements of the calligraphy brush?
Hello Simon,
I dont doubt some keris would be brittle and unsuited to combat. What I was saying was that the best ones were made as talisman and were not intended for combat anyhow. That is certainly the case in Indonesia. I've been fortunate to have gotten information from people who deal with the 'high end' keris, both in restoration and collecting. Anyhow, many of my remarks were more directed at the comments that had been made regarding the esoteric side. Even in Indonesia many people dont understand this aspect very well.
Up until recently I had in my possession a fine Maduran keris, (valued at around $1500 when I was given it). Due to my going to China it has been passed along to a friend. Keris are interesting objects but dont hold any real interest for me.
Yes, the thrusting vs cutting debate certainly is very interesting. I thought Hank Reinhardt made some good observations:
Take the rapier: Certainly a well-made rapier is a superb weapon for individual combat against most single swords one-on-one, but add in other items of offense or defense and it changes things drastically. Let me give you an illustration that comes to mind. I was playing with a friend of mine several years ago and as you know I'm an addict on kukris [the concave Nepalese fighting knife]. I had one out there -- so he armed himself with a rapier, I took the kukri and we went at it. Well, we had about seven or eight fights which I won all. I closed inside the rapier and whacked him with the kukri. Well, he wanted to swap blades so he could try it, and we did and he lost all the fights with the rapier because I used it in a completely different method than what he used it for. He used it to "kill" me -- to get a good solid thrust in. I used it like a sewing machine -- I didn't care how deep I go or where I hit him, I wanted to hit him as many times and as rapidly as possible in as all sorts of areas.
I'm not convinced that modern fencing stylists using epee vs sabre proves anything in so far as real combat is concerned. It is however an interesting experiment. Ultimately it must come down to the soundness of the method and the ability of the individual.
It is also interesting how the Chinese maintained the use of both the straight edged sword and the sabre. So far my own practice has been limited to the sabre, but I intend to rectify that when I am in China.
One can rarely rule out personal bias when it comes to most debates. Academics can often be very bitchy. My point about the Go Rin No Sho is that it needs someone who has experience of practicing a classical Japanese style to really get any understanding from it, and ideally someone who has actually been initiated into the Hyho Niten Ichi Ryu.
You might find this interesting: http://koryu.com/guide/niten.html
I am not disputing Mr Harris's academic standing or his personality. Getting a high rank in Kendo is no mean feat and all credit to him for that. What I am saying is that he isnt trained to use the Japanese sword for combat. There is a world of difference between kendo training and the actual combat use of swords. My interest in weapons is primarily their use as opposed to other qualities. I dont dispute the high art status of the best Japanese swords, but that is not where my own interests lie.
Basemetal
28-04-06, 11:25 AM
Chaps...Bex in particular...
There is more leeway given in "Oriental, Historical and Militaria" than elsewhere, but bear in mind we DO NOT discuss fighting techniques on British Blades.
The quote from Hank Reinhardt in post #37 crosses the line I think.
The quote from Hank Reinhardt in post #37 crosses the line I think.
Spot on BM. I was trying to avoid that line of chatter.
Mike - I think VH has probably tried his hand at Nitto. It is quite common in kendo to come across those capable of using "knife and fork". Two of my previous instructors practiced Niten Ichi Ryu, my current instructor is quite a capable nitto practitioner too. Strangely we we're discussing some bunkai on swords vs hanbo & swords vs sword in the dojo last night (from a traditional view point). It raised some very interesting points....and highlighted a few of our weaknesses. Thats whats so useful about bunkai I guess!
Mike, I'm afraid I must point out the glaring contradiction you make in which you state that Victor Harris is a "kendo practitioner" and then go onto state how he "(does) not have a clue on how to use them", that is weapons or rather swords.
It is not at all a contradiction. Kendo has very little resemblance to how a sword is used in actual combat. It really doesnt. My statement is not in the least naive because the information comes directly from koryu experts. A practitioner of kendo could not at all compare themselves to a koryu practioner. You may not like this, but it is fact, as opposed to opinion or conjecture.
Being a curator has no relevance as to how a sword is used either. It is completely irrelevant. Affiliation between the BKA and the ZNKR has no relevance. Training in an actual koryo does. If you can show me proof that Mr Harris has been initiated into a recognised ryu and has gained rank I will happily retract what I have said and apologise unreservedly for any slight, percieved or otherwise.
You comment regarding the possibility of Mr Harris having possibly had some tuition in different ryu, besides being entirely speculative, shows you dont have much concept of the reality of training in traditional ryu. That isnt my opinion-go and read what the likes of Ellis Amdur, Dave Lowry, Meik Skoss, Karl Friday et al. They have all gained recognised rank in koryu.
This thread on ebudo will help you along:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31769&page=1&pp=15
You can always ask for some clarification over there, as the above mentioned authorities are all members.
You can also go to www.koryu.com. Aside from a good number of online articles, they are able to recommend relevant books as well.
Go Rin No Sho was written by Musashi for an initiate of his school. If a person does not have this level of understanding in a ryu, they simply arent going to be able to truely understand what is being said. Many koryu had similar such texts, and all were worded in a way that meant only initiates would be able to gain any real use from the text. They were in many ways an aide memoire, given out to the student once they had already attained a level of understanding in the ryu.
There are at least two different translations to the Go Rin No Sho prefered to Mr Harris's. Go do a search on Ebudo and you will see for yourself. Make no mistake, Meik Skoss is a recognised authority on subject of koryu and there was nothing ambigous about his comments. Of course, not everyone will and does agree with him, but he speaks from a position of authority.
If you are indeed initiated into a koryu, then of course I will be happy to give your opinion equal status to Mr Skoss's. If you are not, then you really arent qualified. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying I am either-simply that I get my information from expert sources, not personal bias or limited understanding. If you can come up with equally informed sources, rather than your opinion, I will happily acknowledge them.
I am well aware of the history of the sword's status in Japan, thank you. I am also well aware of the restrictions that were in place during the Tokugawa shogunate, etc. I am well aware of when and why the sword achieved its elite status in Japan.
No, your comments regarding Chinese swords are not correct, and magazines such as 'Inside Kung Fu' should not be relied on for information, nor should a lot of writings on the subject.
A few points. The majority of martial artists in China were illiterate. Not all, but most, just like the general populace. Literacy is still something that the Chinese govement are dealing with, which is why they brought in a simplified version of the writing to try and improve this situation.
The most famous swordwork was that of the Wudang taoist monks.
The Imperial guard practiced with both the jian and the dao. You average bannerman was certainly not an aristocrat.
As far as the movements of the jian resembling the refined use of the caligraphers brush, that is poetic license and nothing more. Like any form, the method had to be combat effective first.
As a whole, martial artists had a much lower status in China than in Japan. You simply had a very different society with a very different structure:
From http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/is_history_bunk.html
In 1728, the Yong Zheng emperor issued an imperial prohibition on martial arts, condemning martial arts instructors as "drifters and idlers who refuse to work at their proper occupations," who gather with their disciples all day, leading to "gambling, drinking and brawls." Two hundred and sixty five years later, we look back on the same past as a golden age of great masters with high levels of ability and great virtue.
And please, spare me the whole five ancestors, overthrow the userpers thing. I am also aware of the relevant Chinese history, (not trying to be a smart arse, but I do have my degree in history, so I understand the methodology).
It's been fun, but its lunch time and more pressing things call!
Regards,
Mike
Chaps...Bex in particular...
There is more leeway given in "Oriental, Historical and Militaria" than elsewhere, but bear in mind we DO NOT discuss fighting techniques on British Blades.
The quote from Hank Reinhardt in post #37 crosses the line I think.
Beg pardon. It was just to illustrate the point. I certainly wouldnt go into any explicit details.
Basemetal
28-04-06, 12:42 PM
Moderation has to be finely judged, given the purpose of historical military and oriental blades -but this (my Post #38 ) is just a "reining in" to show we'd reached one of the boundaries for "fighting technique" detail.
Please don't let it inhibit this otherwise fascinating thread :cool20:
Spot on BM. I was trying to avoid that line of chatter.
Mike - I think VH has probably tried his hand at Nitto. It is quite common in kendo to come across those capable of using "knife and fork". Two of my previous instructors practiced Niten Ichi Ryu, my current instructor is quite a capable nitto practitioner too. Strangely we we're discussing some bunkai on swords vs hanbo & swords vs sword in the dojo last night (from a traditional view point). It raised some very interesting points....and highlighted a few of our weaknesses. Thats whats so useful about bunkai I guess!
I certainly appreciate what you are saying, but I think to properly understand the use of the Japanese sword, a person really has to become an initiate of a koryu-this is also the case in the older Chinese schools as well. I think a major problem that people reconstructing schools in the west have, is that they dont have this.
I dont doubt that people can get some idea of the use of a sword from the practice of some kata, but there is a great deal more to it than that.
Ellis Amdur has a very good article in relation to the TSKSR in his book, 'Old School', that explains this point far better than I ever could:
http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html#oldschool
Regards,
Mike
whoa! :ralmao:
"A practitioner of kendo could not at all compare themselves to a koryu practioner. You may not like this, but it is fact, as opposed to opinion or conjecture."
Totally agree! Hence my precurser(?) "Admittedly an exponent of kendo could not truly call himself a practitioner of a traditional koryu...".
Sorry if I sounded rude to call it naive but I have been led to believe that he has had some martial training in the sword...albeit in a modern 'Do' (one which is 'complied' from classical ryu). Maybe I have been misinformed afterall? Forgive my specultations. I simply meant to defend the fact that whilst Mr Harris maybe no expert in the practice of swordsmanship he is in the Japanese language and in its history (and appreciation of its swords :rolleyes: ). You could argue that this being said it is likely to be as bias towards a particular style?
I am aware both of how a traditional ryu works. I am graded in such (although I'm sure one could argue as to whether it is truly a koryu as many have before :rolleyes:) but what does it matter. I seek no approval for my opinion.
It seems that we are of a different opinon regarding our texts. I will no doubt hunt down some of these books you've referenced Mike so thanks for that. It will be interesting to read them and form my own opinions. I do like some of Dave Lowry's books, I've found some quite useful.
I admit I know nothing of Chinese swordsmanship, other than a book I've read on Tai Chi Jian, the author of which name elludes me...maybe Dr Zhang something or other??? I've never seen a copy of 'Inside Kung Fu'. I find most martial arts magazines as much twaddle as they are adverts and egos.
Thanks for opening my eyes on that one.
Kind regards
This is one of those topics which obviously arouses strong views and allegiances, but a big thanks to Bex, Scruff and Simon for remaining polite but firm with each other, whilst imparting a mass of knowledge and opinion.
It's a fascinating thread.
:biggthump
Danzo
No worries Scruff, it has been a pleasure discussing this. I certainly have a great deal of respect for Kendo and the related arts. I apologise if my earlier comments seemed to give another impression. That wasnt my intention. I find all traditional and classical martial arts fascinating.
Interestingly enough, Dr Karl Friday is a Professor of Japanese history at one of the US Universities-Georgia I think, (it is-just checked). Apparently some of the worst errors in Mr Harris's book were the historical details, according to Dr Friday:
Harris' abysmal command of the general facts of Japanese history points to the heart of the criticisms I've leveled at all existing translations of bugei texts (other than those by John Rogers): the translators don't know enough about either the historical period they're working in or the classical bugei to avoid important errors.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/bookreviews.koryuken.htm
Dr Friday does go on to say that at that time Harris's book was one of the better translations around. Since then, a few others have come out that seem to be much better.
This situation isnt unique to Japanese martial arts. Dan Docherty has made similar remarks in respect of Chinese methods, in particular tai chi chuan. Dan has the distinction of being able to apply the art as a combat art, and was initiated into the 'inside the door' teachings. He also reads the language and speaks Cantonese and Mandarin.
The idea that to know a weapon academically you have to be able to understand how it was used seems to have been promoted first by Sir Richard Burton, then later by Donn Draeger. This work has been carried on by Draeger's sucessors:
http://www.hoplology.com/
I dont know if you have read Dr Friday's book, 'Legacies of the Sword', but it is a fascinating overview of one of the oldest schools in Japan, the Kashima Shin ryu:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0824818792/sr=1-1/qid=1146232291/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6427199-9477608?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books
http://www.kashima-shinryu.jp/English/index.html
Dr Friday's book is one of the best I have ever seen on the martial arts. Well worth having for anyone with an interest in martial arts or Japanese swords.
Some very enlightening stuff has been written by Ellis Amdur, Dave Lowry and others regarding the rationale of the koryu. Each school has its own distinct method, with the physical, spiritual and psychological aspects being essential and ingrained to them. In order for the method to 'work' for a student, it has to become part of them.
To try and master more than one ryu is therefore considered to be extraodinarily difficult. Amdur has stated that he had great difficulty learning two different ryu as a result.
The essential distinction here is mastery. One can practice and learn some methods from another school, but the aim of the samurai was to ingrain the teachings, the principles behind the techniques. Lowry has called it a 'worldview'. The principles of the school and the practitioner become as one.
The simple practical reality, rather than the popular spiritual ideals often associated with martial arts, was that the samurai could neither afford to hesitate when in danger, nor could he afford to make a wrong judgement, (leading to disgrace and possible execution or suicide). Life and death, as opposed to an interesting hobby for us modern enthusiasts.
In my own limited way I have found the same problems in trying to practice different martial arts. Differences in movement, in psychology, have jarred. An example. Having practiced aikido and pencak silat, I can say that not only were the physical movements quite different, but also the psychology of the arts. I was unable to reconcile my practice of both of them-trying to do so was like trying to have a split personality. I hope this makes sense. Lowry and others are far more elloquant.
Was this the book on Chinese sword you refer to?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0834804123/sr=1-2/qid=1146234154/ref=sr_1_2/002-6427199-9477608?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books
Funnily enough, this author and the group he is part of really do know their stuff. However, the Chinese are still quite secretive, and nothing of great value is ever going to be shown in a book. The 'inside the door' aspects very much remain 'inside the door'. What tends to happen is the 'authorised version' is wheeled out, complete with associated myths and folk tales.
I'll happily agree with you on the martial arts press. I did like the old 'Fighting Arts International'. Bought that one for years, got a fair few of the back issues. Eventually got a subscription-and they went out of business....:rolleyes: I once had hundreds of assorted magazines, (martial arts, shooting, Blade, Playboy ;) ) etc but might have maybe five left now, (non of them Playboy's or similar before anyone says anything :P ). Used to have quite a martial arts library as well. Now I've found my 'way', there isnt much need, though it is nice to occassionally chat about these things :D .
Regards,
Mike
This is one of those topics which obviously arouses strong views and allegiances, but a big thanks to Bex, Scruff and Simon for remaining polite but firm with each other, whilst imparting a mass of knowledge and opinion.
It's a fascinating thread.
:biggthump
Danzo
We aims to please :)
No worries Scruff, it has been a pleasure discussing this. I certainly have a great deal of respect for Kendo and the related arts. I apologise if my earlier comments seemed to give another impression. That wasnt my intention. I find all traditional and classical martial arts fascinating.
No problems. I've gone off in a ranty fashion in the past (on here too :ashamed01) but its always hard to get your point across in 'text' without sounding a bit blunt at times :rolleyes:
Interestingly enough, Dr Karl Friday is a Professor of Japanese history at one of the US Universities-Georgia I think, (it is-just checked). Apparently some of the worst errors in Mr Harris's book were the historical details, according to Dr Friday:
Harris' abysmal command of the general facts of Japanese history points to the heart of the criticisms I've leveled at all existing translations of bugei texts (other than those by John Rogers): the translators don't know enough about either the historical period they're working in or the classical bugei to avoid important errors.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/bookreviews.koryuken.htm
Dr Friday does go on to say that at that time Harris's book was one of the better translations around. Since then, a few others have come out that seem to be much better.
A friend of mine studied Japanese history and he always found this one quite an amusing blooper, particularly for a "expert". At least it reminds us we're all fallible.....and if writting a book, to hire a knowledgeable proof reader!!
I dont know if you have read Dr Friday's book, 'Legacies of the Sword', but it is a fascinating overview of one of the oldest schools in Japan, the Kashima Shin ryu:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0824818792/sr=1-1/qid=1146232291/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6427199-9477608?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books
http://www.kashima-shinryu.jp/English/index.html
Dr Friday's book is one of the best I have ever seen on the martial arts. Well worth having for anyone with an interest in martial arts or Japanese swords.
I've not yet invested in this book, but yes I am aware of it. No doubt this will be first on my list of your recommendations. Thanks.
On the point of Kashima Shinto Ryu, I've visited this site before. Its not only very interesting but also very reassuring that there is an effort out there to protect and preserve classical ryu so that they are not lost in the obscurity of modern mixed martial arts or diluted into a modern do.
I totally agree about the idea of following 'one path'. it always hard to accept how people can be ranked or graded in so many martial disciplines and still claim to be an expert, and equally as worrying, instructor in each. The old adage always ring true about jack of all trades, master of none.
Was this the book on Chinese sword you refer to?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0834804123/sr=1-2/qid=1146234154/ref=sr_1_2/002-6427199-9477608?%:D 5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books
That's the one. Glad its not a duffer. I find the Chinese arts, particularly those of the sword, bafflingly impressive. The book for me was purchased out of interest. It does seem to be well written and put together but I can see how elements may have been omitted. Isn't this often the case in such books though.
Thanks again for the discussion.
May I wish you all the best on your path.
Thom
ps. Danzo - Thanks for reading.
Cheers Thom. I've had some real moments in the past myself ;) It is indeed harder to get the point across in text.
Kudos to Victor Harris for getting the work out and and getting it noticed. It was all a step in the right direction is so far as making people aware and encouraging further research.
If I wanted to study a koryu-and I did seriously think about it-then the Kashima Shin ryu would be the one. I'm not saying they are the best or anything like that, just that they seem to be prepared to teach people to the level they can attain in the ryu. Like most people I would hope to be judged on my merits and not my skin colour.
The school seems to have adapted to the modern era while remaining true to its roots, which is a very impressive achievement.
I never managed to combine different arts well. There does seem to be a handful of people that can, but I'm not one of them. I do think in order to achieve some level of proficiency in multiple arts, they all need to have some similarities. Someone who wanted to study different filipino methods; different silat styles; karate, etc. The movement from the different schools have to work together.
After all, new styles have usually been built on past training in other schools. What we lack these days though, are people who have the authentic experience to do that. That isnt necessarily a bad thing-life and death combat isnt something any sane person would want to take place-but a simple reality of where we are now. Combat has moved on in many ways.
I am very optimistic I have truely found my own way now. Cant be absolutely certain until I get out there and really get to it, but over 90% as it stands. It is a very good feeling.
I thought that might have been the book. I got the recent one by his martial 'brother', titled Combat Secrets of Taiji, Bagua and Hsing I. Without a doubt they are one of the best groups in China, but they certainly arent going to show their combat secrets in any book-no more than the TSKSR allows outsiders to witness their advanced sword kata.
If you're interested, I would be happy to compare notes regarding sword work while I am in China. It is going to be a while before I get started, (language and job are the first priorities!), but let me know. I'm sure I'll be able to find some interesting materials book and DVD wise as well.
My best to you also in your future training. It has indeed been a pleasure.
P.S. Here is a link to some interesting sword cutting testing of the European style:
http://www.thearma.org/Videos/NTCvids/testingbladesandmaterials.htm
Hi Mike - Sorry for the delay been away with work. Yes it would be good to hear how you get on out there. Your very lucky to be able to get away and devote yourself to your studies like that.
Please do try and drop in from time to time.
Best wishes and good luck!
scruff
No worries-been there with work myself, and I expect to be very busy when I first get out to China!
Will be sure to drop in on the forum-I'm trying to encourage a makers organisation after all!
Any interesting Chinese sword stuff I find I'll let you know.
Regards,
Mike
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