benchmade 190 for bushcraft?

[Darran]

hi all
How do you think this knife would work in a bushcraft enviroment,to me it seems to meet all the needs,the steel 440c(if the same as my grip)is good and wont rust up or discolour.The handle slabs can be changed and the sheath looks ok as does the price.
So what do you think?
cheers

[ZDP-189]

I'm no expert, but the description says BM designed it for hard outdoor use. I can't see anything that would preclude it as a bushcraft knife.

[ZDP-189]

Just had a frightening IT experience. My firewall announced that I could not access this website (http://www.quickknife.com/benben190dro.html) describing the BM190 because it was was filtered out as "Weapons" and that I'd been busted by our internal 'IT police'.

That's bizarre as (a) I've never had this trouble before (b) the BM190 is not intended as a weapon and (c) Google's cache of the same page came through OK.

Can anyone tell me what it is about this page that makes it so offensive?

[Colin KC]

http://www.quickknife.com/benben190dro.html

Looks like a nice knife, it'll certainly do the job, doesn't say what Rc the blade is, but 440c *may* be a bit tough for easy sharpening in the field, then again, it may not be;)

[Tony]

58-60 Rc

[Colin KC]

Oooh Tony, you da man;)

Sooo, that'd make it middling tough to sharpen inna field:)

[Darran]

As i thought,what about a FÄLLKNIVEN F1,just the balde,own handles and get the convex reground to flat,would the vg 10 make it top tough to sharpen in the field'
I have nothing against carbon steels(i have a bison woodsman on order)but am just thinking of alternatives.
cheers

[gurushaun]

Why would you want to reprofile the F1? I find the convex grind on my S1 is fine, sharpening is easy too 400/600 wet & dry on a mousepad. Just wondered :D

Cheers

Shaun

[Darran]

hi shaun
I sharpen all my blades with a lansky system,when they get a bit blunt i strop them.I have an f1 that has been v ground and can strop this back to shaving sharp no problem,but i all so have a wm1 that is still convex and have real trouble getting this shaving sharp.I have looked at all the sharpening info on convex grinds and cant seem to get it,so i thought get a f1 blade get that flat ground add a nice handle.Hey presto a knife with good resistance to rust and a steel i have never had any trouble with a nice maintanable grind.
This all came about after a freind of mine moved by the sea,went fishing taking an scrade old timer that i hade given him,needles to say he had a real rust problem,got me thinking o1 steel and sea water,i would think is a nono.
Thanks for the replies i will proberly go with the 190 and think longer on the f1.
cheers

[megalift]

I'm new to this forum, and don't claim to be an expert gents, but I have got knives by Benchmade, Fallkniven and Al mar and have a lot of experience using them. Before you buy the Benchmade I would say that of the 3 brands I've named, Benchmade are lagging way behind the other 2 in quality and implementation of materials. VG10 is a superb steel - Holds an edge much better than any 440 I've come across, and in my experience, resharpening has not been hard - I use DMT 'ezelap' diamond sharpeners of 3 different grades, which admittedly are a bit pricey, but mine are a few years old now and having had heavy use are still going strong, worth the extra few quid I'd say. Having lapped the blade, I strop it with and old leather belt and would say I get from dull to shaving sharp in about 10 to 15 minutes. Also, if you want to go the stainless route look for knives made of ATS34 as well; this is another really useful steel. The knives I'm speaking of are my Fallkniven 'Njord' and Al Mar Sere Operator - Neither of which are particularly great field knives, I be using my new Wilkinson woodlore when I'm out on the trail from now on. But, as I said; from my own experience, I would say look at the Fallkniven again - They're really surdy. It may be that I just had a bad experience with Benchmade, but I really wasn't impressed, I think there are better out the for the money. Hope this helps.

[Kevin]

As i thought,what about a FÄLLKNIVEN F1,just the balde,own handles and get the convex reground to flat,would the vg 10 make it top tough to sharpen in the field'
I have nothing against carbon steels(i have a bison woodsman on order)but am just thinking of alternatives.
cheers

So, for bushcraft which is preferred.....a convex or a V?

If its a flat grind...does this grind go all the way to the edge?......great for slicing but I wouldnt have thought it a very strong edge if you are gonna use it for pounding through wood. Or, does it have a secondary V bevel?


Just interested.

Thanks.
Kevin.

[megalift]

Well I have a convex grind on my Fallniven Njord, and after whittling with it for hours, it'll shave the hair off the back of my hand, equally, my Al Mar sere is flat ground and it's much the same. In all honesty, I don't think it makes much difference - But maybe that's my lack of experience?

[Kevin]

Well I have a convex grind on my Fallniven Njord, and after whittling with it for hours, it'll shave the hair off the back of my hand, equally, my Al Mar sere is flat ground and it's much the same. In all honesty, I don't think it makes much difference - But maybe that's my lack of experience?

Is the Al MAr just one long flat grind (bevel) to the cutting edge...no secondary bevel?

Kevin.

[megalift]

No, it does have a secondary bevel on the edge, and to be honest, it would be a hell of a lot of work to remove it - But then I've never felt the need - It's a bl**dy good knife. The best prices I've come across are at www.newgraham.com - Take a look, I've got a Sere 2k (Folder) as well, and this is one of my favourite knives ever - It's beautifully made, I highly recommend the Sere series. If you can get that second bevel groung off, and if this is importamt to you, this would be a choice well worth considering

[Kevin]

....... If you can get that second bevel groung off, and if this is important to you, this would be a choice well worth considering

Hi Megalift.

I forgot to say 'welcome' :)

Is this it?

http://www.newgraham.com/images/microtech/al_mar_sro_1.jpg

Its a nice looking knife.

I wasnt considering removing any edge...was just interested in peoples preference for blade geometry for 'bushcraft' minded people.

:biggthump

[megalift]

Thanks! Yes, that's the one. As I said, I have a Sere 2k as well (I know that common wisdom says that folders aren't for bushcraft, but anyone who owns a Sere 2k will probably agree with me that it would do the job-it's very solid). As for the operator, it is a lovely knife - Solid in a 'Grown there' sort of way, and I can recommend the VG10 that it's made of, as is the Fallkniven Northern Lights series, although they're laminated which takes them into a whole different ball-game: Tough as well as sharp.

Perhaps someone can explain to me why Bowie knives are considered unsuitable for Bushwork? I can understand with regard to examples with a more extreme recurve, but examples such as the Fallkniven 'Northern Lights' series amount to little more than drop-points. Is it because the curvature of the blade is too great at the tip-making it easier to slip off your work-piece? If so, couldn't this be remedied by simply ensuring that it's sharp-enough to have sufficient bite? And as most people on this forum seem to know how to get a knife 'Scary sharp', is this a big consideration? In short, and on reflection, is a 'Njord' such a bad woodcraft knife after all? Thanks.

[The General]

The DMT Duo stones remove the argument of difficult to sharpen in the field. I use the course/fine model and its simply superb!

[megalift]

The same model I use - They're also available in 'key-ring' size too, I have one of these also in extra-fine just to finish off before stropping

[The General]

Yes I have the red and green (fine and xfine) also. Great products! I always keep the green pocket stone on my keychain. After all you never know when you need to sharpen a shovel, spoon or even a knife! :biggthump

[megalift]

Dunno about you, but I always find the spoons tough - It's getting a consistant profile all the way 'round the bowl that's the problem. Anyone know the right angle for trifle?? (This thread's going downhill rapidly.... lol)
:O)

[The General]

16.7 degree's! :p THough some say 18, bet then thats just silly! :biggthump

[stonehard]

Hi Quarterstaff and all
I had a look at the 190 and in my mind the problems are thus. Great looking knife however it is very much a hunter/skinner with a good sweeping curve by design it has no real point so as not to nick any gut or bile sacks this keeps the meat safe from contamination. The blade is shorter than the handle so it is probably has a good balance towards the handle again great for skinning but not for chopping.
if this is the only knife you want to carry into the field it comes up a little short as a woodsmans knife as you would have to carry another knife and or an axe. a good knife for use in the wood needs a point for piercing holes some can be quite small. you need to be able to chop brush and bone so a bit of forward weight is quite nice to have.
Any blade will get blunt with use so you will need to sharpen it so your going to need a stone of some sort. DMTs are light and do the job well. So steel is not that important, however carbon steel needs more looking after to stop it rusting. ie oil it when you come home and store it out of the sheaf if it is leather or it may rust if you got wet.
so my sugestions are thus.
If you only want to carry one knife a Woodlore seems to fit the bill even though I hate the hype that seems to go with Ray Meyers (Bushtuckerman fan)
if you dont mind two knives then
a Puma Whitehunter is a great knife https://www.toolshop.de/e/shop/knives_detail.jsp?productID=3151
The Crayton handle is good and makes it a little more affordable, couple this with a Leatherman Wave and your pretty much set and the Wave has a DMT file which although not very fine works great for sharpening at a push.
another alternative is the Fallkniven P1 folder coupled with a good forrest axe which this forum has many reviews on. Folders are not perfect but the P1 is solid and made from good steel and makes a great EDC although not strictly legal under UK law.

[megalift]

I'm thinking you probably mean the Puma White Hunter II, as the white hunter was discontinued in '87. The problem with either model was as you identified in your post, neither have a point to speak of - not much good if you need to punch a lanyard hole, or pick out a splinter. Also the W/H II has a very twee little handle on it, uncomfortable if you have bigger hands than Kylie Minogue (I owned one for all of a week or 2).

If you need a backwoods knife, but can't stretch to a Woodlore, you will really struggle to beat the Helle Fjellkniven (Or indeed any other Puukko by this company, see www.toolshop.de) for the £40 it'll cost you. It'll take a razor edge and it's laminated so it's strong, the only thing you're giving away is that it will corrode if you don't take care of it as it's not stainless, but I don't think that's much of an issue for most of us.

[stonehard]

Hi Megalift
I stand corrected The knife I placed a link to was infact a WHII however you must have hands like spades if that handle is too small I make it 11 centmeters which seems fine to me and I'm 6'4" as to the White Hunter being discontinued perhaps we should all rush off to Toolshop and buy up what can only be a very collectable stock of WH's if they no longer exist https://www.toolshop.de/e/shop/knives_detail.jsp?productID=810
and these handle are even bigger.
I totaly agree that the Helle is a great knife but strangely it has a handle of only 10.5cm which seems to me smaller than Than both White Hunters and pardon me for seeming a little picky but did I not see the word stainless in the Fjellkniven description
https://www.toolshop.de/e/shop/knives_detail.jsp?productID=4004
I assume this is the knife we mean

[megalift]

Ok,1 thing at a time, 'cos I think we've got an upset bunny here:
Both the Guard and Pommel on the Puma are deep and pronounced considerably reducing the amount of handle available to seat your hand - nothing like the 11cm you quote. Conversly the Helle does not, meaning you can vary your grip easily, a real boon when you fancy doing some reinforced grip carving eh? And the length of the handle is less critical because you can comfortably overlap your hands with that pommel. The origional WH was discontinued in '87. That version is a re-run,and if memory serves, made of 440c.

Why did you make the point that the 190 doesn't have a sharp point only to go and recommend a knife shaped like a spoon? Also, the blade is too long for a practical woodsmans knife and that faux-sharpened spine will be a hinderance if you need to do any splitting.

As for the steel the Helle is made of, I was aware that the Core was stainless, but thought the 18/8 was not, I stand corrected - A point worth making??

I do have large hands but not excessively so, I found the white hunter uncomfortable and got rid of it as a result. I refer back to your original point about hunting knves in your post and urge you to take a good look at the NAME of the knife you recommended...

[stonehard]

ok so this could get into a handbag slinging match. So I will make my point using BIG LETTERS AND AND IN SMALL WORDS AS YOU DONT SEEM TO BE ABLE TO READ EASILY OR FOLLOW A LINK.
I QUOTE "If you only want to carry one knife a Woodlore seems to fit the bill
2/"if you dont mind two knives then
a Puma Whitehunter is a great knife https://www.toolshop.de/e/shop/kniv...?productID=3151
The "Crayton handle is good" and makes it a little more affordable, couple this with a Leatherman Wave and your pretty much set.
3/ "alternative is the Fallkniven P1 folder coupled with a good forrest axe which this forum has many reviews on. Folders are not perfect but the P1 is solid and made from good steel and makes a great EDC although not strictly legal under UK law.
So as a collector I'm sure you can grasp the concept of owning and using more than one knife and that was what I suggested. The reason for this is that there is no such thing as a perfect "all round knife" hence I suggested if the Woodlore wasnt what you wanted then use two knives. Then you have the problem sorted. as you have experianced in allegedly owning a White Hunter for but a few weeks and wasted what must have been quite a lot of money, buying good knives can be an expensive thing thats why we read these forums to help stop making simple expensive mistakes like you buying said white hunter and even though you must have looked at it, tried it in your hand for fit and feel, you still went and brought one and when you got it home it was too small for your hand (do you buy your own trousers )
Just as a side issue did you kow that the White Hunter was only second to Randal knives on the wish list of most of the Soldiers in Vietman. In fact due to the price and the availability of the Knife it infact was in Vietman in larger numbers perhaps even being the most "privatly" purchased fixed blade knife in Vietnam. Now I have to say if its good enough for Nam then as part of a TWO knife system it works for me.
Now to finish off did you take a look at the Helle Fjellkniven befor you recommended it. The blade shape is almost the same as the Benchmade 190, where is that point that the white hunter hasnt got? you remember the one needed to dig out splinters and punch holes for Lanyards ( I'm confused why you would want to punch a whole for a landyard. perhaps you mean bore a hole for lashing or somthing) and not meaning to stress a point but looking at the Helle knives on Toolshop.de I fail to see which one of them has a point fine enough to "dig" out a splinter (certanly sharp enough to excise one) where the blade on a Leatherman wave is ideal (pointy blade not sheepsfoot as I know your gonna get picky) "Leatherman dont go out without one" 100s of SAS men cant be wrong.
now as a final finishing point did you actually try the White Hunter in the field or did you just buy it coz it looked nice. Well I know the answer to that If you had used it in the field you would have kept it and the reason I know that, is that Ive had one since 1975 when I Joined up. It has served me through more Tours of Duty than I can count and still is as good as any modern knife today. Oh I just thought, you were right about the White Hunter being a re-issue it was brought back due to "POPULAR DEMAND"

[megalift]

How surprising that you'd bring up 'Nam', and the Sas, and Military Service! Got all the Rambo films in your video collection too have you? (I often do not buy my own trousers, although I have been known to on occasions...)
It's stupid to make assumptions about the people you correspond with on forums; you haven't a clue who you talking to, it just makes you look even more foolish when you try to patronise them.
The Fallniven has a much sharper point (as does the 190) than the White Hunter and is an all-round better field knife - End of story. The Woodlore is a considerably better field knife and if you're taking an ax why do you need something so large, combersome and (Could this be it??) Macho?? Unless of course you're talking about about using the WH as a replacement for an Axe? But then I doubt you'd make such a silly suggestion - Right? It's a knife, not an axe...
Coming, as I do, from a Service family, with a long history on both sides, I find it difficult to believe that you were listening too hard during your 'many' field courses. At the very least, I am as intelligent as you and just as able to evaluate the knives I purchase, whether or not I change my mind soon after. The fact that I have money to waste on them is no business of yours, and frankly the point was unworthy even of you.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the expression of such is not nescessarily a direct attack on your manhood, or the ability to spell your own name. I happen to think that Ray Mears has a great deal to say that's worth listening to, including his ideas on field knife design. You, it seems to me, do not. That is my opinion, I'm entitled to it, stick with Rambo if that's what you want to do....

[The General]

FLIPPIN BEHAVE!!!! :rolleyes:

[megalift]

Fair comment Wayne, I stand suitably reproved and apologise to all involved, my new years resolution is to keep taking the medication....

[stonehard]

Edited by Martyn!

Contents deleted.
Grow up ladies!

/EDIT

[stonehard]

sorry wayne I promise to behave from now on didnt know Megalift was on drugs

[stonehard]

I know sorry mega call it service humour

[megalift]

Fieldcraft was still evolving 40+ years ago, as it is today. Improvements is metalurgy since Vietnam have made many things possible that simply were not back then - The IMI .50 cal is a good example. Just so you know where I'm coming from and so we don't get into this again, the WH was a very popular knife amongst the Vets, but just how much choice do you think they had? And genuinely, how much consideration to actual field suitability went into that choice? We are now 40 years of observations and lessons learned further down the road and this has given rise to the huge array we now have to choose from. As you rightly said, 1 knife does not do all - So let the knife be a knife, and an axe be an axe. As far as cooking implements go, why not fashion them out of wood? Pot-hangers etc. You and I have obviously gotten off on very much the wrong foot, and have some very different ideas, but then I know you'll agree wtih me when I say there is no 1 right way. Consequently, I apologise if my original post sounded more challenging than was intended causing all this bad feeling - I'm bright enough to be able work that one out! Call it a day?
You can have some of my tablets too if you like..... ;o)

[stonehard]

Mega
seeing that my valid points were deleted but you must have seen the e-mail and you my point of view so all I can say is this.
field craft has always existed right from the birth of man and like all things will evolve but will allways be based on the original ideas.
The troops in Vietnam had lots of choice when it comes to edged instruments. k-bar, marbles, buck, bowies etc even sharpend entrenching tools. The white hunter was chosen due to its all round suitability for surviving in jungle terrain. that means cutting down trees and cutting throats. I except your apology but you must learn some of us have been "there" many of us are lucky to have come back. My White Hunter was given to me by my Uncle who saw service in South Asia with the First Cavalry he did three tours of Vietnam he was involved in the Tet Offensive and Khe Sahn and many other horrific battles and carried a White Hunter with him. When I joined up in 75 he sent me a new knife from the States which became part of the reason I'm alive today I have also done a bit of time at the sharp end.

Being in the forces is a good way of being put at risk. Your kit and your training is all you have, so you choose it wisely and learn from those who know. It is very easy to die in a forest in peacetime if you are badly equiped. I love collecting knives but I do have a little practice and experiance to suggest what works in the field and buy them with this in mind. In a survival situation if you have access to water and a good knife then your chances of living are greater than with out one. If I had a choice between a White Hunter or any other knife in that situation I would choose The WH it may not be the best. but I know it works and I would trust it with my life. So in a friendly way I'm saying if you are going to give advice that may save some ones life. base it on fact and not on what you may have read in some sales hype or in forums that are based often on personal opinion and not fact.
oh as for the drugs do you accept paypal.

[megalift]

I accept everything you say, certainly first hand knowledge is very importantant and as far as mine goes, it's limited to Artic tundra and desert, no jungle at all I'm afraid. I can also see why you're attached to the WH, under the circumstances, I would be too - So once again, having touched a nerve (Wasn't my intention) I apologise - That said, it's been an education! lol
As far as paypal goes - The happy-pills go free to a good man! ;o)

[TAHAWK]

At the risk of upsetting the peace, I've owned a White Hunter since 1968, and I would hate to do much "chopping" with it. WHile it has a stout diamond cross-section, it's fairly light and short for chopping, and the top "chopping" edge is even closer to the hand (less leverage). Nor can I baton with it due to the top edge. It was designed, according to the slip that came with it (nice wood box), as a "hunting knife" "designed to skin and dress out game." That's what I used it for, until it was "retired" some years ago.

How about a folding saw to go with the medium knife and multi-tool (or SAK)? You could poke holes, remove splinters, get wood, and split that wood if the medium knife is an S-1 or like in stoutness.

I suppose all here know about the other thread pretty much trashing the new WS knife?

[megalift]

Hi TaHawk,

Yup! And I bought one of those too - Still haven't given up on the 'field knife holy grail'; one day I'll learn.....

[Danzo]

May we assume that you two (Mega and Stone) have shaken hands and are agreeing to differ based on different but equally valid experiences? Jeez, I sound like a relationship counsellor. There is much useful information in what both of you have to say, so play nicely or I put my underpants on over my tights and exercise some super-moderator powers.

Believe me I have both the underpants and the tights.

:thanks:

Danzo the Super Moderator

[megalift]

Danzo - That was beautiful man, brought a tear to my eye....

[Danzo]

As long as it didn't bring a lump to your trousers.........

:27:

:wink:

Danzo

[megalift]

I know this is the new millenium and all, and we're supposed to be open minded etc. But, Er, no. If that's ok with you - It'd never work anyway, you're there, I'm here and the price of fish is going up all the time, if you know what I mean??