Finnish puukko hangers

[Rich S]

Really dumb question -

I've noticed on many of the vintage Finnish
puukko that the hanger clip (not those with
leather straps) is too small for most belts.
So, how were they worn? Clipped to a belt loop?
around a button? Curious minds want to know :-)

Thanks
Rich

[Tiffers]

Hi Rich, do you have a link to a picture that illustrates this?

Thanks!

Tiffers

[Basemetal]

Button.

[PHIL562]

My Lap Puuko sheath will fit on a 1 1/4 width belt and can be suspended by looping on a button as well.

Is it because our friends across the water have big, wide belts ;-0)

[Rich S]

Clips like this and also the smaller ones like on the modern Iisakki.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinpic/clip.jpg

Rich

[EdgePal]

People in the north of Scandinavia use traditional their knifes as belt knifes and carry them daily, but not everywhere and not all the time. To carry a knife in the belt is sometimes not practical and sometimes forbidden, for example, when you go in to a church. (old tradition).

The knife shall be secured in your belt, but it shall also be easy to take the knife off. That is why people here often have a “hook” buttons, or a loop in their belts, or trousers, and use this to carry the knife.

The longer the knife is, the more problems there are to carry it in some situations, for example when you travel by boat, working with fishing nets lives in tents or Hogan’s, and so on. The knife makes trouble for you and before it does that, you take the knife away from your belt. It shall be easy to do - and easy to put the knife back again. (That is also why some people use a special knife belt).

Some people have a special belt for there knifes and they often carrying two knifes, one normal size and one bigger size. The bigger knife is not carried all the time and this type of knife has often a “hook” or a loop on the sheath. It sit secure in the belt, but it is also easy to take the knife of the belt. Alternative is to take the belt off.

I use a small “cabinhook” (directly translate from Swedish) and can just “hook” the knife on to, or off, my knife belt. It is practical.

Bigger knifes is hard to carry sometimes, they are long, heavy and they live their own lives. When you are running the knife hit you all over you body sometimes, when you sit down on the ground the knife is longer then your but and makes it hard to sit because the knifes do not aloud your but to reach the ground – and it hurts…

Some people do as cowboys did, they fasten the knife with a string around the leg. I saw a small string of fabrics on the leg of my trousers and when I carry the knife (nearly almost the time) I slide the sheath under this string and then there are no problems to carry it, the knife follows the leg so to speak. It is not beautiful but it is practical. (The string shall be in the middle of the sheath).

For many years ago I try to find out how the Vikings carried their swords when they was traveling far distances in the nature. I was used to carry my knife belt and also a big knife. To carry a sword is harder, it is a very unpractical thing to carry. The sword is making a lot of trouble for you, and it will fell you down to earth many times a day.

When you live in the nature you must be able to walk on flat land, climb on rocks sometimes, walk in “jungles”, jump over creeks, walk in water over rivers and so on. You shall be able to sit down, rice and sit down again, all the movements you normally do in the life outdoors when you live there for longer times at the time.

I bought a viking sword, make a sheath to it, and then I carried it for some month daily. I tried many ways to carry it. Try to reconstruct ropes, knots, loops and so on just for carrying the sword in a practical way. Then, the ropes, knots and loops must also function practical when you like to, or need to, carry the sword in the belt. It takes some time for me but I think I find out a way that this worked properly. If it is the right way, I do not knew, no one knows, but it was working perfect for me – and the sword go from to be my enemy to be my friend.

I can say this:
it is impossible to live in nature and always carry a sword in the belt on your side. The persons who say that this was the normal way to carry swords have never carried swords more then, perhaps, on flat grounds for some hours during a weekend.

I find out that when the sword is transported, it was carried on the back and carried with two leather ropes as a backpack. You can go thru bushes, sit down, climb, balance and run with the sword this way. And only this way. All other ways I tried, did not work.

If the sheath have a loop of leather, brass or steel in the top end, you can slide the ropes thru this loop and you can then slide the belt thru this opening (new loop) you now get from the leather carrying ropes. Now the carrying ropes functional as belt hangers and you carrying the sword in them and the sword is hanging on your side perfectly balanced.

This is my opinion after about three month carrying a Viking sword daily in the nature.

· Next time I shall test how they transported: sword, 2 spears, axe, bow, arrows, shield, helmet, food and water, all together.


So, some knifes have small clips of loops, often smaller on long knifes then on smaller knifes. Swords can have very long “clips” or leather ropes and they have at least two functions, one to carry the sword on your back, and two, to carry the same sword in your belt.

Have someone study “clips” from other cultures?

Thomas

[Rich S]

EP -

Thanks, good explanation. Much appreciate your insights.

Rich

[Piet.S]

Thanks Edge Pal, that is some interesting insight.
I have a question too.
In many movies you see people fighting with swords and in allmost all of them you see them smashing their swords togather. They stop the blow from the attacking sword with their own. I believe this is nonsense. Swords are not made for this and get their edge damaged. Further it is very difficult. So I believe you attack with your sword and defend with your shield and things has been this way until swordfighting became fencing, with rapiers and such.
What do you say?

[Basemetal]

Careful guys...we don't really discuss fighting methods here, but I can see why you ask Piet. There has been a similar discussion in the Military History forum if you can find it.

[Hepotec]

In my opinion, there would have been very few people who actually needed to carry a sword in the wilderness. Warriors with swords were usually people of a social class which meant never needing to live for long periods in the wilds. Swords are/were very expensive and the local woodsman would have needed decades of wages to buy one.

Warriors normally move in warbands which stick to well travelled roads. They collect food by taking from locals, seldom having the time to search the woods for food. They also travel on horses or by boat/ship.

People in the wilderness would have carried a knife, like all people and possibly an axe. If they needed to protect themselves, then a spear or bow would be a much more sensible thing to carry. A sword is nowhere near as useful against an angry boar of bear as a spear or a bow.

Obviously these are generalisations and are in no way meant to belittle modern day reconstructions of carrying techniques. Experimental archaeology is both useful and necessary and should be encouraged, but it doesn't hurt to have a bit of healthy debate to help with the direction. .

[EdgePal]

Piet.S:
I do not knew anything about fighting with a sword, sorry. I was just curious about how they were carried.

Hepotec
No one knows how the sword really was carried during those days. In England perhaps there was roads to travel on, but here in Scandinavia we have no roads during those days. We were living in the wilderness all the time. When we go somewhere, we go in the nature.

Who owned a sword? Well, honestly, do anyone knew? The sword we have found are often very pretty, expensive, and most of them are obvious for show off more then to fight with, perhaps most of them are just burial swords? The real fighting sword probably was of so bad quality so they did not survive many years in a grave – or did the swords not survive after the war because of damage as Piet:S talking about? We honestly do not knew. Perhaps the swords was: by it, use it, and throw it away? (one battle only)?

Old history is very hard for us to understand because we knew so little about it, and what we have found in graves is perhaps not the true…
Most of us have a picture in our heads and the picture shows more how we like to se our forefathers life’s - then how they really lived.

Here in Sweden was a discussion for some years ago about how our forefathers was buried. Official history talks about megalith graves, stone graves and burial “small hills” or, during the Viking time, “big hills”. We have found about 300 000 graves.
We are not so many people in Sweden, just now about 9 million. But, sins the first man come to this land for about 12 000 years ago, there have been about 300 million Swedes. They probably are buried here – but we have only find about 300 000 of the graves. That is about 1 grave found of 1000 graves.
We have found the graves that are not normal. The big ones, the different ones. How a common grave for a common man, warrior or not, looks like, we do not knew. For woman’s and children we do not knew anything at all.

If what we have found, is the proof of how our forefathers have lived, so must, what we not have found, also be proof of something. We have not find the missing 290,7 million graves – so that proves that all of our forefathers, dive in to the north sea when they field old or sick? Perhaps they travel to England and die there? We exported them and you kill them? Well, I do not think so, but we have a lot of things to find out about our history.
We can also use this way of thinking about swords. How many swords have it been in Sweden during the Viking time? During this about 300 years there was about 4,5 million Vikings, half of them was men = 2,250 000 men. If 1 man of 10 own a sword, it will be about 225 000 swords. How many have we found? 225? = 1 sword off 1000 probably existing. Can we build our history on this and say that the Viking sword absolutely look like this! I do not think so. We can say that the sword we have found so far, look like this.

I think that if you try to calculate how many people have lived in England thins the first Englishman put his foot on your small island, you will be amazed. If all English people who have lived there was buried in a “small hill”, England will be rather bumpy when you travel because there can’t be anything else then small hills all over England.
Dig where you stand! Perhaps you find a sword or a knife?

One thing is the same. People was build like we are build today. They was as clever as we are. They have the same needs as we have, and so on. One thing is still here of our history. All of us. We are the consequence of our history. That is why it is possible to try to find out things a practical way. If our shoulders hurts, our forefathers shoulders also hurts, and so on. We can not say that this is exactly how they did it – but we can say that this is one way to do it. Something like this anyway. In this direction, probably…perhaps…

Thomas

[Hepotec]

Some very valid points Thomas.

The fact that we have only discovered a small percentage of graves from the past is the result of many diverse circumstances. Sweden has a large coastline. Many people were buried at sea. Some were buried in coasal cemetaries which have long since eroded. Bone, by definition will not tolerate acidity or alkilinity, degrading quite rapidly in all but the most favourable of circumstances. Subsequnt activity often impacts too. I have excavated graves in medieval cemetaries with Roman disarticulated remains in them. The Romans buried their dead, a thousand years later a second grave is dug which removes the original occupant. In the graveyard I am excavating at the moment, there are graves disturbing original graves being disturbed by a third even though the life of the burial ground is only around a century. Seems strange that a grave can be lost in so short a time.
As for women and children they are represented in the burial record. In my current burial ground they make up around half of the burials, and some are from Denmark, from the isotopic analysis.

As for interpretation of the past that is a very difficult subject and one that is close to my heart. I constantly tell my students to challenge traditional interpretations of the past. Jyus because a professor said it happened, doesn't mean it actually happened. But we have to take some things on trust. If a method of carrying a sword is described in a saga, and then an example is found archaeologically, then it is safe to argue that this is a method used. There are visual representations in places like the Bayeaux tapestry and on burial stones. The sagas do tell us of sword use and how swords were passed on for generations. Some of the more famous swords were used for centuries. I don't think it is likely that swords were used only once. They take a very long time to make and it has been shorn that they are treated as precious items from burial practice.

I think one in ten men owning a sword is way too high. Most men would have had a weapon that doubled as a tool. Today not everyone has a sportscar. Most people have a conventional car. In the past a few people had a sword, everyone had an axe, for chopping, which could be used in battle, or a bow for hunting which could be used in battle also. I think that even 1 in a thousand would be high for sword use, but given they contain a lot of metal, they are often reused and iron corrodes very quickly in the ground, so many will have simply disintegrated.

A very interesting topic though.

[Sajuma]

I thought that I posted here some comments...? did I dream that or was my posts deleted?

Juha

[EdgePal]

England is a small country and you are, and have been, a lot of people there, and I can understand that you stack your dead and buried them in the same graves…. Sweden is a big country, we have always been a few people here, we have always could afford to have space between the graves. So long distances, so we some time forgot where the grave was… At least that can be the reason of that we have not find them?:D

Sweden’s history is different from England’s history. You gays was far ahead in your culture. You have Roman ways and planning and a lot of thing we did not have. We was in the ultimate north with water around us, here was cold, hard winters and the Roman people did not like our country, they understand that they will freeze their buts of here, so they din not even try to concur us. We are grateful about that, I think the Romans is that also.

History is very interesting. Archeology is fascinating. We knew a lot of our history - but what we knew is only a small part of what really happened. I have a big respect for people who work with our history and their knowledge. I have read, I think, all of the old sagas. As you knew there is a lot of them. One thing strikes me. Of all the sagas, not one of them, tells about the volcanic activity on Island. Not one of them tells anything about hot water springs.

My point is, something in different cultures is so common that you not even talk about them, why should you, they are so common. Everybody knew everything about them.

The alternative is that there was not any volcanic activity, or hot water springs on Island during about 500 years…

Yes, I think I can read the sagas and trust a lot of things in them. But, I must also understand that the sagas is just sagas, written about 300 years after the time they are telling about, at least most of them. The sagas is written by Christian people who try to describe pagan peoples way of living.
In sagas weapons is often “romantic” things, the sagas can be built up around a weapon. Then we have circle evidence. A saga is made up (?) around a sword and the sword get famous and the saga is the proof of that the sword really existed. Perhaps it did, perhaps it is just a romantic saga.

In a army from that time they also need different type of weapons. The different weapons works together in the battle in the same principle that modern weapons work together today, but in a smaller scale. I do not think that the leader of the army just collected people around him and that he then go to war. He must have a strategy of the weapons, the use of the weapons and what the combination of the weapons shall perform. Perhaps not the strategy we are use to have, but a strategy who was normal for him, or for that time, or culture.
When a new strategy was formed, he also win the battle.
The warriors during that time have more weapons then just one. The archers have not only the bow, the archer have also other type of weapons. The axeman start the battle with one or two spears, and so on.
I think that was so normal that they not even speak or write about it. But, I think the principle can be seen in some of the graves from that time. There was often many different types of weapons who was following the dead. Then is the question of what you, and I, think of why there was so many different types of weapons in the grave. It is up to us and our believes.

Here in Sweden there is not a lot of common axes found in warrior graves. The common types of axes is found in carpenters and farmer graves, not warriors graves. In warrior graves we find battle axes.

One sword in 1000 men? No, I do not think so. If so, there was about only 50 sword on Island during Viking time?
I think that is was more sword then that, and I think that the sword was rather common. So common that a King, here in Sweden, forbid everybody who was not a noble man, to carry swords. The sword who was common then get to be a symbol of status and power. I think you have something like that also in England? That was the Kings way of disarm common people their swords, that times weapon of mass destruction.
I think the King feels him self a little safer and there was a possibility to se who was a noble man or not. Noble man carried swords on their hips, common man did not.

The common men hide the swords, and they rust away. That’s why we do not find them.

In Sweden, iron was common. Every farm could produce some iron, and they did. The quality was not so high, but swords and knifes could be made of it. Perhaps “one or two battle only type” but there was no problem with that, they just made one more. Black smiths was also common.
Today we find many “iron Owens” from that time. Often Owens who used “red soil” as material to produce iron. We find them everywhere, in hundreds. The oldest is from about 500 what I knew (I am not updated on this for the moment). What I believe today is that nearly every farm have it’s Owen and produce small amounts of iron, just for the farms needs.

Yes, you have right about the sports cars, but, common cars go as fast as sports cars today… they just look different. One drive only?:)

Nice to talk to you!

Thomas

[Rich S]

I thought that I posted here some comments...? did I dream that or was my posts deleted?

Juha

Yes, some of mine also disappeared into the electronic ether :-(

Rich

[beach bum]

Yes, some of mine also disappeared into the electronic ether :-( There was a glitch with the server last Friday :P


http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18592

[Sajuma]

Rich, did ou see my comments?
Juha

[Rich S]

Juha -

Yes, read them before things got deleted. If you didn't get my response.

I think the stag handled puukko is all original. Maybe a factory special
order or the like. There is a nickle silver butt plate; the spacers are
the type used by the factory, the engraving on the ferrule and
sheath are the same and the knife sets properly into the sheath
at the proper depth. So I think all original or else one he$$ of a
fine customizing job.

I appreciate your comments, help and insights. Always nice
to get info from someone closer to the action :-)

Rich

[Sajuma]

Sorry, I put the link of the photo in one Finnish puukko site but there was no answer neither, no one seems to have seen puukko like yours.
It is rather strange to see stag in Finnish puukko's. Specially in "kauhavalainen"...

Juha

[DGG]

EdgePro-

I really enjoyed your posts. I just can picture you trying to walk through a dense thicket with a sword at your side and getting snagged up. That technique probably works best when mounted on horseback but I don't think the vikings had too many horse hauling boats back in the olden days.

I have a question for you. When you use a puuka for hunting are you usually wearing gloves? All my hunting knives have blade guards because I'm of the opinion that one slip from the handle to the sharp blade will cause major hand injuries. When it is cold, wet, and bloody, accidents happen. Especially when working blind up inside the body cavity.

But puukas don't have blade guards and are more like a fishing filet knife in shape. Thoughts?

Oh, I know where all the Swedes are too. I think all the missing ones are in/were in Maine, Massachusets, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota with a few in Canada and Greenlandl

[Wayne D]

People in the wilderness would have carried a knife, like all people and possibly an axe. If they needed to protect themselves, then a spear or bow would be a much more sensible thing to carry. A sword is nowhere near as useful against an angry boar of bear as a spear or a bow.


Don't forget that older Hunting knives were far larger than those used today - with them regularly in the 14 to 18 inches range . which means they could have been used for defense against nasty beasties and people in an emergency.

[EdgePal]

Hi DGG,

Carrying a sword. Yes, in the beginning I feel like a fool, and people who se me was probably certain as I was one. I was in areas where there was just a few people and they who was there, most off them knows me and know why I carried it.
Horsemen have often swords who was a little longer then the “infantry”. A horseman must really have big problem to carry his sword in his belt.
On his way to England have 2-3e horses in the ship. When they come to England the send out the horsemen as scouts, 2-3 km in land and then the infantry did what they use to do in England. When the horsemen find that the angry English people have gather an army, they go back to the ships and they all go by see again. That was the normal strategy for a normal raid.
When the Viking ship fleet come, 100 ship, then they have 2-300 horsemen ready to fight. Then they take the horses they can find in the area and the number of horsemen was growing.

No, I do not use gloves when butchering because the animals I butch is rather big and they are still warm. They heat up my hands. I have never have any problem with slippery handles. Perhaps that is because our type of knife, without blade guard make you use handles who is not slippery, or, perhaps, just because we are use to this type of knife.

I think if you are use to blade guards, you also use them and trust that they are there. You use the knife a little different then we do.

I think blade guards is a late innovation. The type of knife we find here have no blade guards. There is not so many sheaths find, but those who is found is for knifes with out blade guards. I think this type of sheath, with leather up 2 thirds on the handle, was easy to make. A knife with a blade guard need a different type of sheath, and, the sheath must have some lock construction on the handle who keep the knife in the sheath. That is a lot more difficult to make, at least during that days.
I think also that blade guards first appeared as a protection for the hand (fingers) during knife fights or during wartime. After that people get use to have this type of protection for the hand.

From 12-1300 we have find Hat knifes, I have earlier show some pictures on them. The have leather sheaths and a “Hat” of leather around the handle. When you shall take the knife out, you must first lift up the hat, then you can take the knife out. In this type of sheath you can not lose the knife, it is very secure in the sheath.

Yes, I have read somewhere that there is probably more “Swedes” in USA then in Sweden. There was about 1,5 million Swedes who emigrate to USA around 18 - 1900. Every fifth Swede emigrates. That was bad times in Sweden during those years and they try to get a better life. It seams they did because there is a lot of them now.

Wayne D
I do not think that big and long knifes is better hunting knifes then small knifes. They did not hunt with the knife. The knife was to skin hunted animals and to cut them up.
A good hunting knife, in my opinion, shall be about 10 –12 cm long, have a sharp tip so I can get thru the skin, a big belly so I can take off the skin, a straight edge so I can cut the meat and come close to the bones. Then, of cause, it all depends on what animal you are hunting. In Sweden it most often are mouse and deer’s.
A hunting knife is (for me) a knife I carry in my belt when I am hunting. It is a all-round knife for hunting.

If I shall hunt for longer times, I also have with me special knifes for butchering. That knifes are different and bigger and special designed for butchering. Along with this knifes is also a belly opener.

Then, the knife size is different between country’s. In Germany I think they use rather long knifes when they hunt “wild pigs”. The “design” of the hunted animal also decide the design, and the size, of the knife who shall take it depart.

Thomas

[DGG]

Thomas -

That's a great post, thanks. It doesn't sound like you have any laws prohibiting knives and such where you live. Where I live we don't have such laws and can carry automatic knives but if you don't act properly the police will quickly arrest you and give you a big penalty, either a fine or jail. Probably the most popular fixed blade around here that is not used in the kitchen are the scuba diving knives. Many are now of the H-1 rust proof steel.

I never realized the Vikings took horses in their boats but it makes sense the way you describe them as being scouts. Did many eventually settle in England or Scotland or Ireland and become integrated into the populace? Were all Scandanavian countries Vikings or just the Swedes? My grandma who was six feet tall was from Denmark. As little kids we never disobeyed grandmother.

[EdgePal]

We have laws against knifes in Sweden also, but I think they are not so hard as yours. I live in the middle of Sweden and out in the woods. In the village I live there is 5 family’s and the village is 1 km long. Around us are many km wood, rivers and mountains. It is wilderness. I feed deer’s outside my house during the winter, there is about 30 deer’s and I have just feed them because it is cold outside, about 20 degrees for the moment. We have mouse, beers, wolfs sometime, lynx, and so on. That is normal in this part of Sweden. Where I live, I can carry anything I like to carry, including knifes. That is normal here. It is not against any law.

The Viking time was short, just about 300 years. During those years the Vikings was everywhere on earth more or less. Both as tradesmen and warriors. If they do not like to trade, fight them…?
The Vikings have a new strategy of war and they was successful (new strategies usually are). When the enemy have learn the new strategy they was not so successful any longer.

The Viking ship was perfect and the first landing craft ship. It is still perfect in the construction. It go in one meters dept with full load of cargo and men. That was a new thing. The go fast in to land, directly on the beach, horses and men get of and start the raid. When they get of the ship was floating again and the men who was left with the ship make it ready to sail again when the raid personal comes back. The fight fast and hard, they chocked the people who lives there, before anybody can start a organized defense. People run away, gather other villages people, built up a defense and when they come back, the horsemen have seen them and they go back to the ships. The first raids was like this.

The Vikings come from Denmark, Sweden and Norway. They was tall, blond or redheaded, blue eyes and they was mean, it was a strategy to chock the enemy.

Later on the Vikings comes with hundreds of ship and a complete army and they occupied parts of England. There were some big battles and real wars. Some of the Vikings settled down in England (lower taxes perhaps)? And our languishes was mixed together. Many words in English is from that time and many of English villages have names from that time.
Some Vikings who settle down changed the name of one of the city’s to Jorvik. Jorvik become York. People moved from York to USA and build up New York. Amazing. From a Viking name of a small English town.

If my grandma hade been 6 feet tall, I never disobey or argue with her either.
By the way, I am 6,4 feet…

Thomas

[Hepotec]

Just a (lighthearted) correction here :D .....York is neither small, nor a town. It is a city and quite large, not on the industrial scale of Birmingham or Sheffield, but certainly not small.
It was a big city in Roman times, being founded in the first century. Constantine was proclaimed Emperor here in 306ad and it was the second city of the Roman Empire for a century. After the Roman empire contracted it continued to be an early Medieval city home to both Angles and Vikings. And during the Viking incursions into England, it was the capital of Viking England.
When Hardrada made his bid to take England he landed his fleet at Riccall, 5 miles from York. The Battle of Stamford bridge was 15 miles from York and the precursor, Gate Fulford was actually in York. Godwinson had to march his army from the south to York to protect the kingdom.
Incidentally, the name Jorvic is only a contraction of the earlier Anglian name for York which was Eoforwic.

After the 1066 invasion York continued to be a major city and The Conqueror chose to burn a quarter of the city as retribution for the cities continued resistance to his occupation well into 1068.

There is also a rather famous quote "the history of York is the history of England". York is quite possibly the centre of the Universe.

As you may have gathered I am a (proud) Yorkshireman and I live in York. York remains a thriving city despite my presence.

Have I said anything about York in that post?

[EdgePal]

Hepotec,
I am very sorry about I use the word small for York. York is a GREAT city, my forefathers love it, I love it and all my children love it. Let York live for ever! Absolutely no shadow may fall on the name York. :C

The reason I love York is that I have the most fantastic dog, a Yorkshire terrier of cause, she was the most clever dog I ever had, the most charming, and the biggest dog I ever had, at least in her hart, she was about six feet tall in her hart, and if there is a Menza for dogs, she must be chairmen there today.
So, once again, York is a city, and one off the best city’s in the world.

I did not know that old name Eoforwic. Thanks. I shall keep it in mind.

I feels that you are a little shy when you talk about York. Speak up man!:)

Thomas

[Hepotec]

I am happy you like our city and were not offended by my ranting. :lol:

[DGG]

EdgePro-

What kind of work do people do in your village? It sounds like a great place for (1) a timber mill or (2) a furniture factory or (3) a resort for hunters, fisherman, and campers. Am I close to guessing the correct answer?

I am a "bean-counter", a local term for an accountant. However I have farming roots and sailing roots about the Great Lakes regions.

Hypo-

Was York the first major Roman city in England? Isn't there one called "Bath" which was a Roman city also or are Roman cities common all over the country. The only city I know about except for the major is Kimbolton where my dad was a B-17 pilot during the war.

[Hepotec]

Hypo-

Was York the first major Roman city in England? Isn't there one called "Bath" which was a Roman city also or are Roman cities common all over the country. The only city I know about except for the major is Kimbolton where my dad was a B-17 pilot during the war.

York wasn't the first city, but it was one of the largest in Roman Britain and remains one of the best preserved.
There were already some primative cities in the south of England before the Romans, known collectively as emporia. The Romans took these over and romanised them, as they had done on the continent. There were roman cities along the lines of all of the main roman roads. Many are still there today, some passed out of use. Bath was a major one and still has lots of Roman stuff there even today. Well worth a visit.

[DGG]

York wasn't the first city, but it was one of the largest in Roman Britain and remains one of the best preserved.
There were already some primative cities in the south of England before the Romans, known collectively as emporia. The Romans took these over and romanised them, as they had done on the continent. There were roman cities along the lines of all of the main roman roads. Many are still there today, some passed out of use. Bath was a major one and still has lots of Roman stuff there even today. Well worth a visit.

Thanks for the good info. The oldest place around here is St. Augustine, founded by the Spanish in the 1500's because of the nice inlet there. It has an old Spanish fort and a couple gazillion tourist shops now. College kids from all over the US flock there and a little south to Daytona Beach for their spring break periods. Many bikinis are in evidence on all the Florida beaches (not that I'm complaining in the least). I'm not sure but I think today's women are more fit than years past, at least the younger ones.

http://www.oldcity.com/

One of these day's, when my last girl, Becket, is finished with college ( and the bills are paid off), I'm going to gather my binoculars and buy a European guide to bird watching and go see some of these places. Until then it's just the History and Discovery channels.

I'd also like to see Sweden, especially the less developed areas.

[EdgePal]

DGG
No, you are not even close.
Here lives: 1 electro engineer, 1 salesman, 1 maggotfarmer, 1, retired, 1 inventor, and their family’s.

We have one of the best fishing waters just beside us, the river Hårkan, hunting grounds miles and miles in all directions and a lot of animals of all kinds.
People here do many things. Not only one. They have a main occupation for a living but they are all hunters, fishers, carpenters, plumbers, painters, and so on. We fix most of the things we need by our self’s. If I cant do something, there is always some in this village who can. I have a small workshop and I can produce things for my naburs. We cooperate and we also have fun together.

My house is built of timber 1916 in three floors and a basement. From the start there was four departments with 2 room and 1 kitchen. Later rebuilt to 2 family house. I have rebuilt it to a one family house.
We have 9 rooms, 3 bathrooms, 1 sauna and 1 kitchen. The house is updated and well taking care of thins it was built.

I am a inventor, constructor and designer today, and also a problem solver.
Along other things, I have also construct sharpening tools and I used all my experience from my years of mountain life to do so. I am just now introducing my latest sharpening tool, IcePal, who sharpens all sorts of spiral ice drills. Also the type with three dimension edges can be sharpened perfect - and it is easy to do it.

Knifes have one dimension edges and people have problems to make them sharp. Some ice drills have three dimension edges, they are screwed, bended and the sharpening angel is changing along the edge. IcePal sharpens all these three dimensions at the same time.

I like to solve technical problems. I have solved how to sharpen convex edges, how to sharpen axes, triangular blades, chisels, plain steels, and much more. IcePal solves the problem how to sharpen ice drills. Barbers can use EdgePal Barber to sharpen their own scissors and so on. I enjoy it and here in Scandinavia people have use my tools for some years now. I start to get contacts all over the world by company’s who is interested to sell EdgePal Sharpening Tools. I take it step by step.

Next product (soon coming) will be ChiefPal who sharpens big kitchen knifes fast and perfect. ChiefPal have a new and fast method to fasten the knife in the tool for sharpening.

Thomas

[Danzo]

What a wonderful thread! Congratulations to all of you, an especially EdgePal, for several pages of informative and entertaining reading.

:biggthump

Danzo