View Full Version : Forged means what?
I wanted to help clarify what a forged blade means to me .......though some of you may disagree ;)
'Forged' can mean different things to different people. A blade described as 'forged' by one maker may mean something different to another maker?
SO , what makes a 'forged' blade?
The term 'forged' could mean that at some point , a red heat was applied to the blade and it was beaten with a hammer....very simplistic?
What does a 'forged' blade mean to you?........have you given it any thought?
This is what it means to me:
1. Minimum forged .
This includes the absolute 'minimum' amount of forging to shape a blade.
It may mean that a minimal amount of forging has been done, but the majority of the shaping and bevelling was done with a grinder or with files.
The shape/outline may have been forged but the bevels (the sides that slope down to the cutting edge) were ground in. Of course, different knife designs/styles may require minimal forging anyway!
2.Forged but with minimal stock removal.
Many think that this is the stage that a knife can truly be called 'forged'. The smith starts with a basic round stock or a flat stock bar and sculptures the knife profile with a hammer. As well as the profile, the bevels are also started on. As the smith works on the bevels, the cutting edge is pulled downwards below the choil/ricasso with the hammer.The blade itself is also tapered towards the point.
The visual effect of a tapered blade and a distinct cutting edge dropped below the ricasso is usualy a give away that the blade has been forged...although it IS possible to grind a knife to look like this!
Some think that to be classed as a true 'forged' blade, at least 80% of the shaping should have been forged (the remaining 20% ground or filed away).Some smiths will do 99% of the work with a hammer and finish with files!
3. Forged with no stock removal.
A few bladesmiths will forge the blade entirely to shape and the cutting edge may be just finished off with a stone. This can take a lot of skill, as the hammer work has to be precise, any mistakes cannot be 'ground' out to hide them! The finish is usualy a hammered finish effect on the blade (Tim Lively is well known for this type of work).
Visualy, a trained eye can usualy tell the difference between a forged and non forged blade (stock removal).
Does a forged blade have better qualities than a non forged blade ?.....
As a bladesmith, and working within the steels that I can forge and heat treat myself.........if I thought a stock removal knife was better than a forged knife then I wouldnt be forging :D
There are some very interesting modern steels that make excellant knives that I am unable to forge or heat treat....I cant compete with them. But a well forged, well designed and heat treated carbon steel blade takes some beating.
:D
('forged' to me means #2 or #3 above :) ).
hey
i would agree.. 2 or 3.. i've been looking at murray carters wonderful blades and methods.. he does traditional japanese work.. a hand forged blade from him means forged to roughly the final shape, bevels and flats done .. the blade is annealed and then clay back heat treated.. rotating waterstones are used to grind to a pretty finish (i think he calls this cold forging) and then the blae is tempered again.. final polishing is done on stones ..
sounds very much like no 2 above
cheers
ugug
PS_Bond
15-12-03, 10:13 PM
Yup. Another vote for 2 & 3.
As I said to Kev a week or two back, Karl Schroen's book, the Hand Forged Knife, miffed me somewhat as he forges flat some barstock, then establishes some of the tang, and then grinds the profile and bevels; that's #1, I guess, but not in my ideas of a forged blade.
At the moment, I'm aiming to establish the profile, forge some of the bevels in and file the rest out, so I suppose that comes under #2. #3 is a long way off.
As for forging stainless... Well, maybe one day. Not yet.
Mick Maxen
15-12-03, 11:11 PM
As far as I know there are 2 ways of making a blade, stock removal and forging. Stock removal is a piece of steel that has been ground or filed until it resembles a blade. A forged blade is a piece of steel that has been shaped using fire and hammer. The degree of forged to shape is down to the skill of the bladesmith. With forging you can move metal about, which is impossible with stock removal, so the shapes can be more interesting.
Happy Christmas, Mick
Roger Gregory
16-12-03, 12:11 AM
The more skilled the blacksmith/bladesmith, the less stock removal needsto be done. I know some smiths do a lot of stock removal anyway for other reasons but personally I like to see a lot of forging to shape.
Take Damascus knives for example. If you 'just' grind you are limited to the pattern in the steel and where it appears on your knife. If you forge that same piece of Damascus you can curve the piece or draw it out or both so you can keep the pattern where you want it. Apparently ;)
Roger
Roger Gregory
16-12-03, 12:12 AM
Good thread Kevin. I will have lots more to say .... soon :)
Oh, and Mick ..... Yuletide Greetings to you too!
Roger
Colin KC
16-12-03, 12:49 AM
Sorry Kev, Forged means *metal moved under "softening conditions" (generally under a hammer/bashingh thing)*
& not neccesery knives!
I wanted to help clarify what a forged blade means to me .......though some of you may disagree ;)
'Forged' can mean different things to different people. A blade described as 'forged' by one maker may mean something different to another maker?
SO , what makes a 'forged' blade?
).
Hi Guys. I didnt mean to be controversal in any way. I happened to have a conversation with a knife maker last night and this came up in discussion.
Its not meant to be too serious :)
Yeah, I agree with #2 above Kev.
Merry Christmas to you too Mick. ;)
If someone starts with a round shaped bar/rod and flattens it to a piece of bar stock and THEN grinds the profile and bevels...Is it a forged knife?
Does it matter :(
:censored: ..wish I never started this now :D
Lets try something easier....'Whats IS the meaning of knife'....I mean 'life'?
:yikes:
Time for my medication :trink26:
May as well be the first one to come up with the predictable answer....42( though if you are hand forged this may be between acceptable tolerances of 41-43, taking into account the universe and everything) :D . Apologies for the crap pun, probably about time for my medication too!!! :) :confused: :o :)
PS_Bond
16-12-03, 08:14 AM
Careful, Reggad, you're starting to sound perilously like an engineer... That way madness lies.
:D
In the old days forging was the most economical way to make knives and swords. You did not waste pressious metal and you didn't have to grind with expencive stone wheels.
Nowdays we know that one can get bit better blade by forging cause the molecule structure is better suited in cutting blade.
If one uses steel billet that has already been flattened by machines the molecule structure is already in pretty good direction. This is sometimes a matter of faith but some belive that one can make same cutting properties with stock removal comparing forged blades.
IMHO if one makes a knife with stock removal and heat treats it with care it is fare more better blade than badly forged blade with good HT.
Every hammer blow leaves a "memory" to the steel. If you beat the steel when it's not in good temperature you make more damage than good. It doesn't matter any more to anneal your blade, the dammage is already done. It might help to anneal your blade but...
So for my last comments in this matter:
It is good to forge blades but one has to know how.
With SR it's "easier" to make blades but one has to remember the most important thing!
Heat treatment has to be done with care!![U]
Juha
ggfh666
16-12-03, 09:49 AM
I always thought forged meant that it was a falsification. So a forged knife is not really a knife... :D
I always thought forged meant that it was a falsification. So a forged knife is not really a knife... :D
:rolleyes: dont give up your day job for a ife in comedy ;)
........snip...If one uses steel billet that has already been flattened by machines the molecule structure is already in pretty good direction. This is sometimes a matter of faith but some belive that one can make same cutting properties with stock removal comparing forged blades.
IMHO if one makes a knife with stock removal and heat treats it with care it is fare more better blade than badly forged blade with good HT.
Every hammer blow leaves a "memory" to the steel. If you beat the steel when it's not in good temperature you make more damage than good. It doesn't matter any more to anneal your blade, the dammage is already done. It might help to anneal your blade but...
So for my last comments in this matter:
It is good to forge blades but one has to know how.
With SR it's "easier" to make blades but one has to remember the most important thing!
Heat treatment has to be done with care!![U]
Juha
I like that. :)
I aim to please and live to serve... :wink:
Juha
edge-maker
19-12-03, 08:36 PM
2 and 3 for me... I do both stock removal work on anything from D2 through ATS34, the CPM's to Böhler k190. When given a high tech heat treat these steels give suberb blades.
But...I also like beating on hot steel. And i like the somewhat rustic appearance my blades always seem to get when i forge them. The really big advantage in forging lies - imo - in the fact that you can very easily give them a differential temper without a lot of high tech equipment. That way they will get an exellent edge but also will live up to a lot of abuse. And.. a good edge hardened 5160 spring steel or 52100 RB steel blade will easily outcut a number of the stainless steels, including ATS 34, and be a lot easier to sharpen in the bargain.
Gert
ZDP-189
26-01-04, 10:43 AM
http://www.uberlevel.com/link2image/h1657b5tdw.jpg
In the instructions that came with my new Edge Pro Apex, Ben Dalewarns not to over grind the "vulnerable area" highlighted on the above picture when sharpening forged knives, lest a hollow develop over time.
I guess he means that forged knives will be too thin at the widest part of the blade by the heel because the blade was not properly tapered before the blade was hammered out.
Is my understanding correct? Is this generally true?
:thanks:
Z
http://www.uberlevel.com/link2image/h1657b5tdw.jpg
In the instructions that came with my new Edge Pro Apex, Ben Dalewarns not to over grind the "vulnerable area" highlighted on the above picture when sharpening forged knives, lest a hollow develop over time.
I guess he means that forged knives will be too thin at the widest part of the blade by the heel because the blade was not properly tapered before the blade was hammered out.
Is my understanding correct? Is this generally true?
:thanks:
Z
Z.
because the blade was not properly tapered before the blade was hammered out.
I dont understand what you mean by this .......'properly tapered before hammered out'?...... :confused:
Looking at the photo that you supplied ......I think the photo is showing that the the heal is substantialy wider (spine to edge) than the rest of the knife and when the knife is sharpened on the system, this area may sharpen and wear quicker due to the angle of the stone acting on it (the heel is overhanging the system more than the point).............??
.
PS_Bond
26-01-04, 02:24 PM
Only thing that springs to mind is the plunge?
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