British 18th century North American Trade knives

[canadian]

Hello all,

I'm new to this site and I hope this is the right forum to be posting this thread. I have acquired through a metal detector folk a rusted blade of what looks like a butcher knife. This was found near an old British fort from the 1780's and it seems very old and in a relic state. There are faint markings on the knife blade and I would like to research British 18th century knife blades that were traded with the Indians in North America. Does anyone know of any documentation that would be of use to me in this matter.

Thank you,

Kevin

[geo tichbourne]

I took the time a few years back to research Hudson Bay Co records at the national archives in Ottawa for purchases made for various ships leaving for Canada. They listed sellers not the makers names.

A search for knife makers in Sheffield and Birmingham that match the mark on the knife would be more productive..

[Danzo]

Hi canadian and a big welcome

I was gonna give you a big thumb up smilie but my computer isn't too happy!

Anyhow, if no one here can help, and I figure a fellow Canuck was not what you expected, give these fellas a try;

www.antiquearmoury.co.uk

They tend towards upmarket weaponry on the site but someone may have the knowledge you seek!

Danzo

[Roger Gregory]

Another Canadian ... as you can see we already have a few, we like them :)

Now, can you scan, trace or photograph the markings on the knife? I do have a book with lots of 19th Century Sheffield marks and I'm quite happy to scan in pages that contain anything similar to whatever you show us.

Roger

[canadian]

Hello all,

I'm new to this site and I hope this is the right forum to be posting this thread. I have acquired through a metal detector folk a rusted blade of what looks like a butcher knife. This was found near an old British fort from the 1780's and it seems very old and in a relic state. There are faint markings on the knife blade and I would like to research British 18th century knife blades that were traded with the Indians in North America. Does anyone know of any documentation that would be of use to me in this matter.

Thank you,

Kevin


Here are pictures of 2 of my trade knives. Both again were found near Michilimakinac Fort, Michigan and appear to be British knives. The British troops took over the fort as of 1761 and left around 1780.

Trade knife 1 : rusted, pitted but has a very faint touchmarks that reads (not sure) Parki?? in a demi cercle on the blade. Seems almost certain this is a British Indian trade knife. Could be French but the curve of the knife looks British. Most French trade knife blades did not have a curve to them.

Trade knife 2 : 3 symbols appear on the blade (a cross, a star and 3 circles with radial lines). Seems almost certain this is a Indian trade knife.

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks all.

[Kevin]

..

Trade knife 1 : rusted, pitted but has a very faint touchmarks that reads (not sure) Parki?? in a demi cercle on the blade. ....Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks all.


In the book 'Bowie Blades and Bayonets of the Ben Palmer Collection (by Palmer and others)' has a reference to Bowie Knife Makers in Sheffield England....


There were three makers with the name 'Parkin' making knives in the mid 19 C shown in this particular book.

This book names all the makers as Bowie makers , hence the 19 century connection ......Maybe the 'Parkin' name was an established knife making family and could have been making them in the 18 th C as well....Just a thought.

[canadian]

Thank you for the information on the marking, if British knifemaking is anything like the French one, the art and trade was passed down from generation to generation. This would make sense in the case of this trade knife. It is so hard to find information in order to clearly identify British 17th and 18th century colonial trade knives (shape, design, markings ...). I would most likely have to go through archeological documentation collected from historical sites in Canada and the US. It's ashame no reference book was ever published on the matter.

If anyone can suggest any good documentation regarding this it would be much appreciated.

[Roger Gregory]

So far I can't find anything in my reference books showing the star, cross and circles from the one knife. There are several firms I can see called Parkin, Perkin or Parkinson but of course you need more to go on than just a name.

I wonder whether Bernard Levine might be able to help? He has knife identification forums at www.knifeforums.com and wwew.bladeforums.com

Roger

[Danzo]

I'm putting this in the new historical forum.

Danzo

[Wayne D]

3 symbols appear on the blade (a cross, a star and 3 circles with radial lines).

Looking at the pictures the '3 circles with radial lines' looks more like a crown as seen on sterling and pewter Hallmarks of the 18th century, obviously the blade isnt precious metal but that would give a mark of a cross and a star surmounted by a crown - By Royal charter possibly?

[Wayne D]

looking at it again i reckon 2 of the symbols are crossed keys, and a star - making it definately a Sheffield manufactured knife!

[Wayne D]

I've been digging as well and the closest I can find for you with what i have is that the right hand one looks like the logo of 'Parkins and Marshalls' of sheffield who's Stamp was :

the word Parkin top curve and marshalls bottom curve with an arrow head in between the 2 names;

they are listed in the Sheffield Borough Directory of 1859 as :

Parkin & Marshall, merchants, & tableknife, file, edgetool, steel, &c, manfrs. Telegraph Works, 23 Furnival street.

I know 1859 isn't early enough, but it's as far back as i can trace that company at the moment! - can any one else take this one further?



yahoo got it!!!

The star and maltese cross was the trade mark of 'Joseph Rodgers and Sons' established in 1682

I have seen the triple ball and lines before but I cant remember what they mean right now - will get back to you on that - unless someone else can do it before me?

[ANDYLASER]

Welcome Canadian

[cammoman]

looking at it again i reckon 2 of the symbols are crossed keys, and a star - making it definately a Sheffield manufactured knife!

The crossed keys and the star are sign of John Nowill and Son Est 1700.
This company was bought out by J Adams and they still make knife's bearing that mark today.
Check out http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/index.html :)

[Wayne D]

The crossed keys and the star are sign of John Nowill and Son Est 1700.
This company was bought out by J Adams and they still make knife's bearing that mark today.

Yep! :biggthump

but when I lloked closer I realised it's a Star and maltese cross which is 'Joseph Rodgers and sons' .

they also changed their Maltese cross 'thickness' a couple of times - but this looks like one of the earlier variants placeing the knife between 1740 -1800 from what I can find !

this is fascinating so I'm gonna keep digging :D

[Andy]

joseph Rodgers is now owned by the eggington group. along with william rodgers, IXL, George Ibberson, A. Wright and I think there may be another couple. that may help you find out some more of the history.
the MOD knife is made in their forge and a few people have been deemed good enough to buy blades from them. it makes working out who made something really difficult these days.
Have you looked into the name Rodges and shon? IIRC that has something to do with the J rodgers name

[Wayne D]

Have you looked into the name Rodges and shon? IIRC that has something to do with the J rodgers name

to find info about the knives were digging on remember to look under 'J Rogers and sons' without the 'D' , as they also traded under that name for flatware and kitchen cutlery!

so far most of the 'colonial' cutlery I have found has been by 'J Rogers and sons', with the European trade by 'J Rodgers and Sons'.

It's taking me so long beacause I'm trying to match the exact model of knife!! Perfectionist ? wot me ? nnaaahh!! :D

[tstetz]

to find info about the knives were digging on remember to look under 'J Rogers and sons' without the 'D' , as they also traded under that name for flatware and kitchen cutlery!

so far most of the 'colonial' cutlery I have found has been by 'J Rogers and sons', with the European trade by 'J Rodgers and Sons'.

It's taking me so long beacause I'm trying to match the exact model of knife!! Perfectionist ? wot me ? nnaaahh!! :D


Hmm, now I have a folding bowie with similar markings thats marked 'J Rogers and sons' without the D that I was under the impression was a knock off of the original Rodgers company.

Admittedly this info came from a friends father who's a collector and isn't something I researched much myself.

https://home.comcast.net/~tstetz/rodgers2_sm2.JPG

https://home.comcast.net/~tstetz/rodgers2_sm.JPG

https://home.comcast.net/~tstetz/rodgersfolded2_sm.JPG

[Wayne D]

Hmm, now I have a folding bowie with similar markings thats marked 'J Rogers and sons' without the D that I was under the impression was a knock off of the original Rodgers company.

Admittedly this info came from a friends father who's a collector and isn't something I researched much myself.

that model looks like one I've seen known as 'the equaliser' that was exported in large number to the 'colonies' I will see if I can find the link again amongst my 'thousands' of bookmarks! :biggthump

[tstetz]

Wayne,

I'd appreciate any info you can find out. It's kind of a neat knife but I'd been thinking all this time it was a knock off so its been mostly just sitting in a drawer at home. It'd be interesting to find out if it has some more history to it than I thought.

My friends dad thought it was a repro, likely of Indian origin, based upon the brass bolsters and wood and horn handle.

The balde actually seems quite well made and takes a good edge, the brass doesn't seem as well finished but then it is fairly old so perhaps its more a matter of current condition than original manufacture.