View Full Version : what makes the USMC knife so special
I'm not knocking the knife at all, I'm just not sure why that knife more then just about any other military knife is so well known and mentioned
similar sized knives with a clip point blade have been around for ages. I've been told the british army used 7inch clip point blades before the FS knife (though I've met blokes who said the FS was good for buttering their bread and used for little else). Was it the first to be made robust enough to survive getting mistreated by soliders or was it much better is a range of climates? I'm guess the tradition stacked leather handle common on the typical Sheffield clip point knives of a similar size might rote rather quickly in the sort of environment the USMC knife has been used.
fullplate
28-05-07, 03:12 PM
Hi there
famous by association I think, followed by excellent marketing in the late 70's and early 80's when Kabar reintroduced it. Is it a good knife?? I don't know.
I have a WW2 Case 8inch knife that is an excellent tool/weapon and puts the MK2 in the shade. But the MK2 knife is still in production and the Case is just a memory.
Phil
ubermeister
28-05-07, 03:41 PM
I know a couple of special forces guys who reckon the FS dagger is quite good, provided you accidentally snap the last inch off the blade and re-profile it.
As for the USMC knife, I don't know why, but I want one.
Anthony
ggfh666
28-05-07, 03:44 PM
I think it was/is a cheap, mass produced, reasonable usable general purpose knife.
Millions have had it during their service and were happy with it. It is a knife you don't have to be afraid of using it. Where the FS is designed for stabbing, this one is designed for cutting and chopping. What is more likely to be used? Certainly in post WW1 times.
About the leather, the US version is leather as well, so don't see how the rotting of the UK one would be an issue?
The thing about the FS knife is that is was designed for a single. highly specialized role, even in comparison with other fighting knives. You can't really directly compare it to the USMC knife which was intended as a rugged general purpose military knife.
Basemetal
28-05-07, 04:37 PM
I love the handle. It suits me perfectly -large barrel shaped leather, grippy when wet, takes a lovely patina, shows the knife's individual history.
The blade is so-so, but to be honest, it isn't the blade that does it for me on this knife.
I wasn't really after a comparison to the FS knife as they are very different knives. I think we all agree that for most stuff the USMC knife is a better option.
I did wonder if the fame the knife has is more to do with the association
I'm just not sure why that knife more then just about any other military knife is so well known and mentioned
Mentioned where Andy?
If you mean on US forums then it's no doubt because of the degree of familiarity with the original knife and the later reproductions.
It certainly isn't the case on BB as a search for USMC will show. We have very few threads discussing the knife at all. Most of the search returns are for threads where the knife is mentioned in passing.
As to elsewhere? I suspect that on most European forums the Fairbairn Sykes would attract more attention. No doubt in Germany there would be considerably more overt expression of interest in WWII German military knives and daggers, were it not for the intimate connection between such knives and Nazi symbolism.
Russia? I'm sure they are keen on Russian military knives.
The knife has iconic status in America, and is certainly a classic design, but I don't think it's the 'most well known' military knife when looked at in an international context.
Danzo
Mentioned where Andy?
If you mean on US forums then it's no doubt because of the degree of familiarity with the original knife and the later reproductions.
It certainly isn't the case on BB as a search for USMC will show. We have very few threads discussing the knife at all. Most of the search returns are for threads where the knife is mentioned in passing.
I guess part of why I think it's so well known is that of the military knives I'm familiar with the only two that I think I could show to most of my mates without them knowing which army used it woud be the FS dagger and the USMC knife.
Maybe it's just down to Andy Mcfibb (supersize me) and a just about ever film with a seen set in viatnam includes a USMC knife strapped the the pack of the blokes about to die.
I guess part of why I think it's so well known is that of the military knives I'm familiar with the only two that I think I could show to most of my mates without them knowing which army used it woud be the FS dagger and the USMC knife.
At least in the UK there is probably some truth in that, and perhaps other parts of Western Europe as well.
I think that the majority of people in the UK would just describe the USMC as a 'hunting knife' to be honest, whilst the FS would probably get recognised as a 'commando knife' by quite a decent chunk of the population still.
Danzo
The yanks are terrible for thinking that the US is the entire world. For example the Kabar is the most recognized military knife in the US so it must be in the rest of the world as well. Thinking that the Mustang was a more important fighter plane in WW2 than the Spitfire. Some of the most important weapons of europe
have little or no prescence in the US. The Luger is considered to be unreliable and prone to jamming in the US because there 9mm cartridges are very very weak compared to the german military cartridges. In reality the Luger is one of the most reliable and accurate handguns ever. The FS dagger has a similar rep in the US because they got the crappy ringed version made in a US factory by mostly german workers.
The Kbar is an excellent camp knife which is what 95% of soldiers should carry.
In an emergency it could be used as a weapon. The FS dagger was made specificly to be used for a single purpose in concert with the techniques they
had developed for it.
What would be the most important kife of the 20th century?
I say the FS dagger, some the Kbar. I would also consider the SAK, the first spyderco, and even the original Rambo knife by Lyle. The Rambo knife kick started the whole quality big custom knife craze and there would be no Busse
or Ranger knives if not for Rambo.
I feel bad even writing the word"RAMBO" on a site as classy as BB but it did have a huge effect especially in the US. The americans might not effect much with their military but their movies sure do.
The FS dagger has a similar rep in the US because they got the crappy ringed version made in a US factory by mostly german workers.
Excellent point Unsub. It becomes very tiresome reading some of the ill informed opinions of the FS on US forums when it's apparent that these are based on second or third hand reports of the awful US made versions.
I believe it's true that Wilkinsons did in fact tender for the supply of FS knives to the US military but lost out to a US tender which was something like one twentieth of the cost. And of course the knives ended up being made out of papier mache or something equally inappropriate yet the knife design gets the blame!
:rolleyes:
I don't think there's any shame in mentioning 'Rambo' knives. To someone of my generation in the UK the four most significant knives in our developing a lifelong interest in all things knifely will very likely be our first SAK or close copy, our first stacked leather handled Bowie-style fixed blade scout knife, images of the FS in war comics, and the first Rambo knife.
True for me, anyway.
Danzo
OMG I totally got my lifelong interest in knives from staring at the FS daggers in a WW2 history book at the school library and war comics.
It seems like there are quite a few things that when they were brought to the US were bombs because of a problem with the different culture. The exellent mauser rifles never caught on in the US because of the metric calibre and the confusion with what bullet is safe in what receiver.
The first Rambo knife is actually quite nice. The later ones like the Rambo 3 knife were awful though.
At least in the UK there is probably some truth in that, and perhaps other parts of Western Europe as well.
I think that the majority of people in the UK would just describe the USMC as a 'hunting knife' to be honest, whilst the FS would probably get recognised as a 'commando knife' by quite a decent chunk of the population still.
Danzo
Anyway folks. Talking about USMC knifes 8)
Here some pics of a minty USMC WW2 CAMILLUS NY with "care tag".
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m8.jpg
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m9.jpg
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m10.jpg
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m11.jpg
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m2.jpg
http://www.nvhs.com/e107_files/public/1169868024_195_FT240_m1.jpg
And here a picture of a PAL RH 37 Navy Mk 2's from my collection.
( Red spacer hilt variant)
Clic on picture for bigger image.
http://www.picfury.com/2f/48870647_o-1-th.jpg (http://www.picfury.com/2f/48870647_o-1.html)http://www.picfury.com/img/banner7.png (http://www.picfury.com/index.php)
http://www.picfury.com/2f/48870622_o-1-th.jpg (http://www.picfury.com/2f/48870622_o-1.html)http://www.picfury.com/img/banner7.png (http://www.picfury.com/index.php)
LH 600
martin123
29-05-07, 08:26 PM
To someone of my generation in the UK the four most significant knives in our developing a lifelong interest in all things knifely will very likely be our first SAK or close copy, our first stacked leather handled Bowie-style fixed blade scout knife, images of the FS in war comics.
True for me, anyway.
Yup, too true. Commando comic at every available moment, and so a familiarity with "commando knife" or the No4 mk3 with a spike bayonet, followed by "Sten Gun". All of the above should be familiar to boys of our age range.
That, and knowing someone at school who inherited Grandfathers Khukri, dating back to the crisis in the 50's..
That kind of thing should be almost engrained genetically !!
Funnily enough, my first knife was a stacked leather handled bowie shaped solingen knife. Still got it, too !!
That, and knowing someone at school who inherited Grandfathers Khukri, dating back to the crisis in the 50's..
I really should have mentioned the Kukri as well, shouldn't I?
:rolleyes:
Who remembers 'Darkies Mob'......
;)
Danzo
I really should have mentioned the Kukri as well, shouldn't I?
The kukri like the bowie* is a very well known shape but not a type of knife that many could identify between different models
even on here would manypeople be able to say which model this one is (it's a british army issue one)?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/highstorrsprom/more%20knives/DSCN0340.jpg
*by bowie shape I mean a large clip point blade not unlike this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/arlongden666/cutlery%20photos/bowie.jpg)
martin123
30-05-07, 05:11 PM
Andy, in the original question, did you have a particular maker, mark, and year in mind for the usmc knife?
In which case the type of khukri would be moot, surely? The obvious association is "gurka knife". Outside of collectors, I doubt many could tell them apart, and they will allways have the one a sociation in the minds of most people?
Andy, in the original question, did you have a particular maker, mark, and year in mind for the usmc knife?
In which case the type of khukri would be moot, surely?
I don't think that fact that the USMC knife was made by different companies compares to different kukri
the USMC knives do have some differences but (though I may be wrong about this) they have a blade shape and size which is almost identical. Far less difference between the MKII I posted before and range of kukri shown on heinnie (which unless I'm mistaken are the range Tora have)
I think more people could tell the difference between a USMC knife and another fairly small clip point sheath knife like they could tell the difference between a FS knife and other daggers
martin123
30-05-07, 06:54 PM
I think we may be at cross purposes. To illustrate - I asked a chap at work today, what the first military knife that sprang to mind was.
His answer? Gurka knife.
The reason? His uncle fought with Gurkas in malaya. He didn't even know that there were many types, after all, why should he? To most ordinary people, a kukri is a kukri is a kukri..
His second choice, unprompted, was a lee enfield bayonet- "because it goes on the end of a rifle" :)
I believe the Kabar knives were made by different companys according to who it was being made for. I'm sure I remember reading that Camillus made the knife for the USMC and that they were made by other companys for the army and so on.
It is a decent enough blade, my dad swears by his, but I suppose it depends on what you want to do with your knife really. The missus owns a FS dagger, best to stay on her good side! It's either a knife in the ribs, or, what with her being German, a swift gassing come shower time!:O
She's a good lass really!
I think we may be at cross purposes. To illustrate - I asked a chap at work today, what the first military knife that sprang to mind was.
His answer? Gurka knife.
The reason? His uncle fought with Gurkas in malaya. He didn't even know that there were many types, after all, why should he? To most ordinary people, a kukri is a kukri is a kukri..
I have no doubt a kukri is a very well known type of knife to most people
but the point that a kukri is a kukri is a kukri was what I was getting at
In most cases a bowie is a bowie is a bowie but I think the USMC knife seems to be seperated in the same way a dagger is a dagger is a dagger and then there's the FS commando knife.
It could just be my generation that has seen so many films with them in it, It's the one I got asked about a fair bit by people about my age that aren't into knives but wanted one for camping.
With the kukri I'm aware that the Gurkas have a reputation and the common assosation with the large knife they carried and used for both day to day tasks to the close quarter combat. With the FS knife it has the link to the SAS who have a reputation, maybe the men would have been happier with something like the kabar would have been preferred by some of them but there is no doubting the intention of someone with a FS knife in their hand or a bayonet on the end of their gun
I think I may have taken this off track mentioning Kukris.
My point was purely that to many people of my generation the most influential knives were very probably an SAK, a scouts sheath knife, a FS, the first Rambo knife and a kukri of some description.
I take Andys point (no pun intended) about the FS and USMC being quite specific models of military issue knife, albeit with minor variations.
Danzo
martin123
30-05-07, 08:07 PM
I think danzo made the right point - if you were raised on tales of Iwo Jima etc, the usmc would be the first to spring to mind. Over here - it's gonna be (in no particular order), commando knives and kukris.
Personally, I have a navy mk2, forget which maker, but I hadn't heard of 'em before coming here, other than occasional mention of the ubiquitous kabar...
Interesting thread, this..
On other classic military designs I've been browsing my new Boker catalogue (in German) which arrived from Heinnies today, and was reminded of the German WWI knife the 'Grabendolch' which I've liked since first seeing one a few years ago. Boker have been making both repro and modern variants for some time.
I'd be very surprised if either Sykes or Fairbairn were not at least passingly familiar with it as a fighting knife
I also like the gothic-medieval styling of the WWII 'SS' ceremonial daggers but I don't think I could ever own one as the historical associations would be simply too uncomfortable for me personally.
Substitute 'abhorrent' for 'uncomfortable' perhaps.....
:yuck:
Danzo
I also like the gothic-medieval styling of the WWII 'SS' ceremonial daggers but I don't think I could ever own one as the historical associations would be simply too uncomfortable for me personally.
I have a copy of one of those. Its pretty cheaply made. It was given to me by someone who found it in an attic.
As you said, the shape and the design are very nice. Which is why i keep it.
And i dont really assosiate it with what it represents, as its just a copy. Not a real one.
But i have to say:) If i was offered the sword of Vlad the impailer, or Attila the Hun i would gladly exept it:D
But i have to say:) If i was offered the sword of Vlad the impailer, or Attila the Hun i would gladly exept it:D
I'd be fine with either of those!
:D
Danzo
martin123
30-05-07, 10:14 PM
On other classic military designs I've been browsing my new Boker catalogue (in German) which arrived from Heinnies today, and was reminded of the German WWI knife the 'Grabendolch' which I've liked since first seeing one a few years ago. Boker have been making both repro and modern variants for some time.
Danzo
The Wilkins (http://www.wilkins-knives.com/fs/gdolch_s.html) jobbie looks rather fetching :D
The Wilkins (http://www.wilkins-knives.com/fs/gdolch_s.html) jobbie looks rather fetching :D
Ooh crikey!
:O
That's awesome! Never seen that before. I tend to look at Kevins folders.
It does look rather.....'effective' doesn't it?
;)
Danzo
martin123
30-05-07, 10:34 PM
Ooh crikey!
:O
That's awesome! Never seen that before. I tend to look at Kevins folders.
It does look rather.....'effective' doesn't it?
;)
Danzo
Yup !! I think if the Borg fought for the kaiser in WW1, that is the very tool they would ask for...:lol:
Wayne D
30-05-07, 10:38 PM
just about ever film with a seen set in viatnam includes a USMC knife strapped the the pack of the blokes about to die.
probably because it was the standard issue knife of those 'grunts.
personaly I prefer the 'Quartermaster ' before it was made by Ontario out of crap steel although the new model has 1095 steel blade it has one of those horrible 'plastic' handles.
I had a 'Case 337-6Q' when I was in the R.A,F and it was absolutely perfect for everything I needed, it was about an inch shorter than the Ka-Barr but had a wider blade.
Then some Bas**rd nicked it off my webbing when I was in the Mess at Akrotiri.
here's a picture of a Cattarugas 225Q
which was almost the same as my Case
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/469/cattaraugus225qgq9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
and here's a picture of the modern Ontario 440A version of the Quartermaster
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7390/usm01se6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Krizzard
31-05-07, 10:24 AM
what makes the USMC knife so special?
The "USMC Knife" aka kbar has been closely associated with the United States Marine Corps from the early days of the Second World War and g'wad knows all other conflicts hence.
The truth of the matter is, that the k-bar legend remains "alive" because of the corps SPIRIT which is kept going by folk tales, by means of the printed word (as in kbar sales literature for one), in spirited action movies but especially through tender heart felt moments of father-to-son warrior legacy hand-me-down knife ceremonies of how that one particular knife kept so & so alive throughout the entire war. Yeah, right! And today we have the new Ontario OKC3S - USMC Serrated Combat Knife Bayonet for the 21st century Marine. But that still doesn't stop the appeal of the WW2 antique. Remember the Ka-Bar Next Generation? Proof that you can use better materials and features for a product improved model but it's almost like trying to fight a ghost.
Though the kbar isn't the best knife in the world.
It was for many a Marine, the only knife worn at his side.
Luckily for him, it wasn't too bad a knife.
In fact it's one of the few military issued items which actually worked!
For it worked well as a general cutting tool and if need be, to cause a world of hurtin' to the enemy.
It was a cost effective package which kept those contracts going for years.
But to be perfectly fair, any faults forth coming from issued equipment was something you learn to live with once you're a marine. And that's why you send in the Marines in times of trouble. They never complaint.
probably because it was the standard issue knife of those 'grunts.
personaly I prefer the 'Quartermaster ' before it was made by Ontario out of crap steel although the new model has 1095 steel blade it has one of those horrible 'plastic' handles.
Dtalbot showed my his knife which I think was one of those, the sheath is effectively a left handed one to aid with the less nice uses a military knife might need
Martin123, love that "Wilkins jobbie"!!! Sweet knife!
My first knife, before I joined the Corps, was a Ka-Bar 1207 Bowie style, very similer to the USMC knife. Loved it! Now I'm waiting for the "Bull Dozier" 1275 knife to come out mid June.
Unsub, there are those of us here in the States that are well familiar with the Hawker Hurricane and the Spitfire!!! Excellent planes, both. What was it that 1 German Aviator said? "The Spitfire is a lovely airplane, but the ME109 is a warplane!" You Brits sure showed them!
And the P-51 Mustang wasn't worth a damn until it's engine was replaced w/the Rolls Royce "Merlin" Engine!
History, gotta love it.:D
I think it's a MKII khukuri and likely issued to a unit of the Army of India, rather than a British unit.
One of my uncles was issued a more-or-less FS knife made by LF&C. He compared it to UK-made FS's and found it was significantly thinner. He "accidently" broke it and went to war with a "hunting" knife he purchased in the UK.
BTTT, as stated above, the association with the U.S.M.C. is likely responsible for the iconic status of the MK II Fighting Utility Knife in the U.S., although we were well into our formal participation in WWII when it was first issued.
I think it's a MKII khukuri and likely issued to a unit of the Army of India, rather than a British unit.
It's a MkII made in 1919 and as far as I know never issued
Stuarttoffee
03-06-07, 05:59 PM
Must admit that Im quite a fan of the Kabar, I regularly use mine as my outdoor knife (strapped to my pack of course, less frightening to the "sheeple").
It seems a pretty stout blade suitable for piercing/chopping/prying & all those other abusive tasks & I find the tacked leather washer handle rather comfy too.
Ive had a couple of FS knives, one was used alot as my (very unsuitable!) outdoor knife years ago when I was an ATC cadet. Naturally, I broke the tip off & ground it into a stronger broader point.
Id put the Kabar in my Top 5, certainly.
Very interesting thread this.
In the interests of expanding it beyond the basic question of the USMC knife does anyone have other examples of 'classic' military knives from around the world? Even long forgotten classics?
Danzo
Ropeman
03-06-07, 08:34 PM
British Army Jacknife and the Camillus version for the GI seem to provoke much more affection from their owners than one would expect from the design.
The Kabar remains popular because of its legacy, but it worked from the beginning because it was a pretty good design (I don'r care for the sabre grind/fuller thingie) made out of tough materials in a pttern that could do about anything you would ask from a field knife. As far as stabbing vs. the SF, read some of Bill Bagwell's articles about bowies as stabbing weapons. The SF had its flaws even in the superior Wilkinson version. If it hadn't, then we probably wouldn't have seen the Randall Model 2, Applegate-Fairbairn and Gerber Mk II, all of which were intended to be improved version of the SF concept. The Randall and AF were specifically designed to cure what were preceived as "defects" in the design of the AF.
Wayne D
04-06-07, 09:44 AM
The Kabar remains popular because of its legacy, but it worked from the beginning because it was a pretty good design (I don'r care for the sabre grind/fuller thingie) made out of tough materials in a pttern that could do about anything you would ask from a field knife..
according to Ka-bar history, the original design for the Knife was done in 1898 when the company was called the Tidioute Cutlery Company and was designed as a hunting knife - that probably explains why it makes a good 'outdoors' knife.
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