foils within the law

[Looke]

I was wondering if anyone knew if i was allowed to carry a foil in public,
I recently lost the bag and am not sure i f its within the law to carry it around, I checked some of the other posts and they specify swords being illeagle if they're bladed but a foil isnt, so i was wondering if anyone could tell me if i could carry it in public.

Thanks

[Little claw]

Its not truly a sword, although it could be used as a weapon, and it looks like a weapon - I had an interesting (and expensive) conversation with a couple of police officers not too long ago regarding 'imitation' weapons.

If you have good reason you should be okay (like any martial arts weapon thats not specifically banned). If I were in your shoes id stuff it in a bin bag so as not to attract undue attention.

[Ross]

The legislation states 'bladed or sharply pointed' which I imagine a foil is. Your reason for carry is to go to & from a fencing class? If so - no bother at all. Anything else and you might be struggling....

Claw - how was your discussion expensive! Intrigued to know.

[narsil]

I used to fence myself, mostly tv's and videos but the odd sword as well...(sorry couldn't resist that one :rolleyes: ) ...seriously though I seem to recall that the advice given to us was not to travel to and from training or competitions with a 'weapon' (i use the term in the context of the sport) visible. Even a training blade could well be considered an offensive weapon.

I would suggest that the best way to carry it is in a proper sword bag or at least a sports bag that fully encloses it. Although you do have good reason to carry it I think that its best to be on the safe side and avoid any potential hassle. Although, carrying it well wrapped up should be fine on the odd occasion. Just make sure that its not obvious to the casual observer what it is, otherwise you could end up with a whole load of hassle even if you are on the right side of the law. :biggthump

I know a least one person who has falen foul of not wrapping something up well enough, although they weren't charged in the end it was a pain in the head.

[Tantalus]

yeah i think the law would suggest you cover a foil in public

correct me if i am wrong , but i think shotguns and rifles must be covered in public too
this cover doesnt hide the fact that it is a gun over your shoulder, just makes it clearly obvious it is not intended for immediate use

the way i understand it this is the way the law sees bladed weapons too

of course you still need reasonable justification to carry a gun round a shopping centre in a cover, taking it to a shop for repairs or whatever your reason

point is it should not be threatening

threatening or non threatening, still does not mean that you can use this to carry weapons -knives or indeed firearms - that are illegal under the law

hope this helps, it is my imterpretation of the law only

Tant

[Looke]

Thanks for the advice...guess ill cover it with something then,

By the way do you seriously think a foil could be used as a weapon,
I've been fencing for four years....i dont really see how you could stop a determined person grappling you down....

[Hellz]

Thanks for the advice...guess ill cover it with something then,

By the way do you seriously think a foil could be used as a weapon,
I've been fencing for four years....i dont really see how you could stop a determined person grappling you down....
Unless you got the bead at the end of the foil stuck up their nose :dunno:

Hellz

[Tantalus]

no in all seriousness i dont consider knives or guns weapons either :240:

but the general population of sheeple on this backward little island beg to disagree with me

innocent until proven guilty means the law has changed to make posession of these items in a public place illegal

to the detriment of my own personal freedom

:aargh4: ok rant over :banghead:
and its not the polices fault , their job is to uphold the law not make it

:tongue-ti Tant

ps i still worry bout that icon

[Stew]

The legislation states 'bladed or sharply pointed' which I imagine a foil is.

Aren't foils blunt and with a ball on the end?

[Looke]

Aren't foils blunt and with a ball on the end?

All foils are blunt, most of them also have a rubber/plastic cap on the end to prevent harm being done with an excessive lunge, but mine is an electric foil and so doesnt have any cap on the end just a blunt metal button.

On another note does the size of the foil count within the law ie. is the punishment harsher if you have a bigger foil

[Stew]

...mine is an electric foil and so doesnt have any cap on the end just a blunt metal button.


So there's no edge or point on it at all. Surely it doesn't fit in to

the legislation states 'bladed or sharply pointed' which I imagine a foil is. .

[Ross]

But it can still be an offensive weapon, just not a bladed or sharply pointed one (which is what one imagines a sword to be...)

[Looke]

Doesnt that in theory mean that anything can be classified as a weapon and that its all down to interpretation, as with all things law based???

[Ophidian]

With regard to air rifles, rifles and shotguns, yes they do need to be covered while being carried in a public place. :twak:

I shoot at a couple of ranges and I specifically chose a bag for my rifle that does not scream “gun bag”. There is no hint as to what sort of sports equipment the case holds. It is a back-pack design. Quite handy as one of the ranges is in a major (university) city, so it is common to see various shaped sports gear bags being carried. :)

[Stew]

But it can still be an offensive weapon, just not a bladed or sharply pointed one (which is what one imagines a sword to be...)

I agree totally Ross and am not trying to cause an arguement. I'm just thinking how they don't really fit the description, but look like they should!
I'm sure you could still do a fair bit of damage with a foil if you wanted to.

[Ross]

Doesnt that in theory mean that anything can be classified as a weapon and that its all down to interpretation, as with all things law based???

Yup

[Ross]

I agree totally Ross and am not trying to cause an arguement. I'm just thinking how they don't really fit the description, but look like they should!
I'm sure you could still do a fair bit of damage with a foil if you wanted to.

No worries mate, they look like they should indeed.

[David Morgan]

I shoot at a couple of ranges and I specifically chose a bag for my rifle that does not scream “gun bag”. :)


The tommy-gun in a violin case is a traditional option... or perhaps not.

[Toodlepip!]

I suggest that if your bag has been stolen, get a piece of 1/2" domestic plumbing pipe the length of the blade and carry your foil with the hilt inside a sports bag.

This serves to protect the blade - a serious consideration if you're using top quality maraging blades - and will also protect the tip. When you replace your bag, keep using the pipe - it will still protect the blade if the bag is trodden on or bent.

The foil was originally designed to be a practice weapon for the epee - it was never a weapon in its own right. Although the blade is very light, I would be happy to use it against an attacker - extend your arm with the point in line with the attacker's eye and disengage or cut over if he trys to sweep it away.

If you are attacked and the blade breaks you will now have a lethal weapon - the broken end is invariably sharp.

Good luck with the fencing - which salle do you attend?

[Danzo]

Yup

Just to agree with Ross on that one; literally anything can be classed as an 'offensive weapon' in English law if carried with that intention or used as such. The law reports have the obvious thing like chairs and umbrellas ( :rolleyes: ) but rolled newspapers, fruit, stiletto heeled shoes and frozen meat have all been classified as offensive weapons at one time or another.

A fencing foil can be lethal. A competitor in the Olympics, a Russian I think, was killed many years ago when the tip hit just below his throat, bent vertically down, bowing the blade, and then snapped, flicking the jagged end underneath his mask and through his throat.

:yikes:

However going to a fencing class would certainly be a good reason for carrying an item which otherwise might be classed as a weapon.

Danzo

[Looke]

I suggest that if your bag has been stolen, get a piece of 1/2" domestic plumbing pipe the length of the blade and carry your foil with the hilt inside a sports bag.

Thats ingenious...shame you didnt tell me that last year...my foil is nearing breaking point.

You say you could use it as an effective weapon, but mines only size 3....i prefered the extra control over the weapon and lightness of the weapon over its length.

Thanks anyway


A fencing foil can be lethal.

The chances of a foil breaking are quite low, a lot of stress has to be put on the blade in a short amount of time...having said that mine is on the verge of breaking so i understand your point.

Yet is the law sensitive to that, i mean are you more likely to get in trouble for having a sword on the verge of breaking then a brand new one?

[narsil]

Swords of any kind can break unexpectedly through fatigue, swords used for stage or other stunt fighting have a prescribed life after which they must be replaced, just like helicopter rotors and gas turbine blades. Any chips in the surface will greatly increase the chance of a fatigue failiure.

[Danzo]

Yet is the law sensitive to that, i mean are you more likely to get in trouble for having a sword on the verge of breaking then a brand new one?

No Looke, I can't imagine that any officer would distinguish between a brand new foil and a older one.

However unless you were behaving like a complete t**t there isn't much of a chance of you being stopped anyway. I used to fence sabre and epee and used to carry my bag into the pub after training without a second thought. Nobody ever so much as asked about the sword handles sticking out of sports bags as we had a post training pint. We had been fencing, so what?

I am obviously not recommending carrying swords into pubs but a squash racket or hockey stick is also a potential offensive weapon and most people don't worry about carrying one of those after playing or training.

Just be sensible is the best advice.

;)

Danzo

[Toodlepip!]

The chances of a foil breaking are quite low

Then I wonder why I have seen so many blades broken, and why I have so many spare tips kicking around in the pocket of my bag...

Like Danzo, my weapons are epee and sabre - more epee since they banned the pas avant and the fleche - but I've never heard of anyone chosing a short blade to gain control.

The tallest fencer I have fought was 7'2": I'm 5'7" and it was a long enough walk to get to his body after dealing with his blade without the added disadvantage of a short blade. Losing a couple of inches of measure in epee would be a disaster, and I'm amazed it provides any advantage in foil.

[Martyn]

Like most of the laws of this type, the people who apply them use thier common sense too. You cant expect a police officer to know the intrcacies of a fencing foil - why would they? But it makes no difference anyway. If you're walking round a shopping precinct wafting an uncovered foil about, you may well get arrested (at least I would hope that you would). The fact that it may be blunt, made of plastic or whatever is unlikely to make any difference to your arrest. If your behaviour can be seen as threateni9ng or intimidating, that's enough. But Bitish law is vague in it's specifics of items, focussing more on behaviour, deliberately so to allow the police to make judgements. We want some nutter with a 3 foot piece of steel to get arrested, but we also want sensible people to go to thier fencing class without worry. So for this reason, anything can be classed as offensive, because it's largely your behaviour that determines what is or is not offensive. Seems a very sensible approach to me. Be sensible, be aware of others sensitivities, cover your blade in public and i cant think of any police officer having justification for arresting you (not that they would even want to), let alone making it stick.

To answer your original question, if you're going to and from a fencing class, your blade is securely covered and you are behaving in a sensible, non threatening manner, I cant see any law that you are breaking.

Just my 2p.

EDIT/ we could extend this discussion to include carring a razor sharp "live" katana to and from a martial arts class. The fact that you're carrying a live blade isn't so important as the method in which it's carried, your behaviour with it and your awareness of others perceptions of you with it.

[keith_beef]

However unless you were behaving like a complete t**t there isn't much of a chance of you being stopped anyway. I used to fence sabre and epee and used to carry my bag into the pub after training without a second thought. Nobody ever so much as asked about the sword handles sticking out of sports bags as we had a post training pint. We had been fencing, so what?

We used to do the same, after reenactment training. With longswords, broadswords, axes, maces... The landlord knew us and welcomed us with open arms and till, seing as how we were always very thirsty after three hours of training. The regulars were used to us, and didn't bat an eyelid at all the kit.


I am obviously not recommending carrying swords into pubs but a squash racket or hockey stick is also a potential offensive weapon and most people don't worry about carrying one of those after playing or training.

Absolutely true, as any lad who was made to play hockey against the girls will tell you...


Just be sensible is the best advice.

If you can't be good, be careful. ;)

And if you can't be careful, try not to get caught.

Oh, I learned a new Swedish word: Absolutist. ;)


KKK.

[Little claw]

Claw - how was your discussion expensive! Intrigued to know.

Sorry this took so long. Here is a cut from a thread that I started on Bladeforums:

Balisong carry in France (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285264&highlight=eurost%2Ar)
I had asked whether I could carry a bali in france, since they are legal there, and it would be nice to get some usage out of one of my 'toys'. The consensus was 'no', so I dropped that idea.

I was travelling to the Alps and my friend had the tickets, so I had no idea of the level of security - what's more, skiers and climbers travelling to the area are highly likely to have a knife/multitool in their kit so I didn't think my knives would be a problem. I also took my Benchmade 40T. It is not a knife, therefore not covered under s141, as confirmed by the reaction of the BTP officer. I regularly have it with me to use as a toy - flipping - but it also comes in handy as a training knife for impromptu ideas and sessions.

Okay. So I took my 40T, Dodo and Calypso Jr Ltwt.

No problem, right?

WRONG!!!

I get to the Eurost*r terminal in London, only to discover that all my bags have to be scanned and there is no secure cargo area.

One of the guards sees the 40T on the scanner and almost soils his pants thinking he's got an honest to goodness, boner fide, Al Kidder terrorist on his hands.

I get taken aside and they search and swab (for explosives I presume) the bag that the 40T was in. I won't even start to tell you what mistakes they made, suffice it to say the two REAL knives got through and if I'd had anything else... Anyway, after a long converstion with security (laughingly so-called I presume), Special Branch (who, through clever manipulation of language and law alomst convinced me that the 40T actually WAS a weapon, even though I didn't know it) who strongly implied that if I didn't sign it away I might get arrested and the British Transport Police (who said that it wasn't illegal - and that they wouldn't arrest me for it - to the annoyance of the other two), they eventually decided that they still wouldn't let me travel with it, because it could be an "imitation weapon" and if used as such would be illegal (which is a serious b@stardisation/creative interpretation of the law) and that if I continued to argue about it I would miss my train -- so I cut loose and signed it away (lesser of two evils).

Now, I didn't know that the security would be this tight, and I certainly wouldn't have risked two of my favourite Spydies If I had. I may have taken the 40T anyway, though, cause its not a knife!!

Despite ridiculous rules, the security was sh!t, I mean, they only saw the 40T cause I didn't try to hide it! And they only swabbed my bag because of the 40T! What kind of terrorist would jeopardise his mission by attracting such attention?! Not only that, but a friend of mine and one other person I saw both had knives on the train.

What really galled was when I went to the bar carriage and saw a bottle of champagne sitting on the bar, for anyone to grab. A much more formidable weapon than anything I had.

Here's what I learned:

*Eurost*r security is stricter than the airlines due to lack of a cargo hold, so you may lose any knife you are transporting.
*You are not likely to be arrested for possession of a 40T in the UK, unless you weild it with 'intent', as is does not fit the definition of a balisong. This could change.
*Eurost*r security are unlikely to protect you from a real terrorist, because they are stupid. They will, however protect Eurostar and the European tourist industry from your fear of terrorism, so they can keep making money.

The safety of the public was in no way served by the confiscation of my 40T. However, I consider the cost of my 40T to be my contribution to advancing knowledge of balisongs in the real world -- still stings though.

I have to admit that it was quite funny when the guy who saw the thing on the screen :yikes: looked like he was going to dive on my bag! Funny before they confiscated it, anyway...

I can see why some might think this was a stupid thing to take with me (my friends certainly did), but it was in good faith and I don't even think I was being naive. The Special Branch guy (there in an anti tourist capacity, he told me) seemed a bit surprised that my answer to 'why do you have this?' was 'for fun'. And, despite me getting 'round most of his circular arguments, and agreeing with me that it wasn't illegal, per se, as the BTP cop said, it was he and the (outsourced) security guys who said - but we're not going to let you take it anyway.

To be brutally honest - I don't think that the eurostar would be at all easy to hijack (attack, maybe), and I'm glad because the security is cack.

[Ross]

Interesting story, thanks for posting it. Just shows how different people, with different training, interpret the legislation.