Saddle v lock stitch.... info!

[Martyn]

Quick one here, this pic was originally posted by Chuck Burrows on CKD, and re-posted here with his permission. It's a great image which helped clarify the benefits of saddle stitch in my mind, so I thought I'd repost it here for posterity ;)

http://www.synobyte.com/pics/stitch.gif

[Colin KC]

...That was quick! I haven't seen anything cross the Atlantic in such a remarkable manner since that infamous Renwax bottle;) :p


'scool Martyn, nice to see some useful stuff over here, let's hope it's a sign of things to come:)

[Martyn]

You're just jelous because I have the speacial international cutlers compound...

http://www.synobyte.com/pics/renwax.jpg

:p :p :p :p :D

[PS_Bond]

Isn't that the diagram from the Al Stohlman hand stitching book?

BTW - tit-bit on hand stitching: In the book mentioned, he recommends feeding one needle through, then the opposite whilst pulling the first thread back slightly to avoid piercing the thread. In a book I found in our local library, the recommendation on saddle stitch was to stick both needles through simultaneously "crossed swords" to achieve the same thing. The major disadvantage that springs to mind is needing either smaller needles or a bigger hole...

Peter

[Martyn]

Originally posted by PS_Bond
Isn't that the diagram from the Al Stohlman hand stitching book?

Yes, I belive so, it was scanned by Chuck. Reproduceing it probably probably breaks some copyright somewhere, but I wont tell if you wont ;)


Originally posted by PS_Bond
BTW - tit-bit on hand stitching: In the book mentioned, he recommends feeding one needle through, then the opposite whilst pulling the first thread back slightly to avoid piercing the thread. In a book I found in our local library, the recommendation on saddle stitch was to stick both needles through simultaneously "crossed swords" to achieve the same thing. The major disadvantage that springs to mind is needing either smaller needles or a bigger hole...


Thanks Peter, holding the thread back, while feeding through the other needle - that's a good tip, I can see the advantage over the crossed swords method. Thanks.

[PS_Bond]

I'm no expert - I simply bought the hand stitching kit from Tandy as it included all the tools I wanted at the time.

Now, needless to say, I'd like a couple of stamps too... And an edge crease. I need to get my dyeing up to speed first, however.

Peter

[helmar4578]

In many years of leather work I have heard many pros and cons as to the benefits of hand stitching over machine stitching and visa versa. Let it be noticed at this time that those that tout the superiority of the hand stitch over the one produced by the stitching machine--- do not own a harness or heavy duty stitcher. Those that do possess such equipment are not quick to dispose of same unless it is for the purpose of upgrading. I have heard it said that the saddle stitch is stronger that the lock stitch because thread is not pulling against thread. This is quite possibly so but the difference is minimal. The initial cost of a good stitcher that will handle 3/4's of an inch of leather is more that the average part time leather worker can afford. The stitchers will run from a low of about 1500 US dollars up to and exceeding 7000 US dollars. To combat this outlay that so few can afford, the machine stitch is belittled as being inferior. This just is not the case but is understandable as no craftsman likes to say that his methods are not the best. There are many leather articles that can not be sewn by machine and must be done by hand. Hand sewing is slow, tedious work that runs up the cost of the article without materially affecting its strength or appearance. To claim any REAL benefits of hand sewing is an excuse for trying to justify the additional cost. I know of no serious leather craftsman that would abandon their sewing machines in favor of harness needles. No one likes to shoot themselves in the foot in order to make a point that has little validity----Sandy

[CTS]

In many years of leather work I have heard many pros and cons as to the benefits of hand stitching over machine stitching and visa versa. Let it be noticed at this time that those that tout the superiority of the hand stitch over the one produced by the stitching machine--- do not own a harness or heavy duty stitcher. Those that do possess such equipment are not quick to dispose of same unless it is for the purpose of upgrading. I have heard it said that the saddle stitch is stronger that the lock stitch because thread is not pulling against thread. This is quite possibly so but the difference is minimal. The initial cost of a good stitcher that will handle 3/4's of an inch of leather is more that the average part time leather worker can afford. The stitchers will run from a low of about 1500 US dollars up to and exceeding 7000 US dollars. To combat this outlay that so few can afford, the machine stitch is belittled as being inferior. This just is not the case but is understandable as no craftsman likes to say that his methods are not the best. There are many leather articles that can not be sewn by machine and must be done by hand. Hand sewing is slow, tedious work that runs up the cost of the article without materially affecting its strength or appearance. To claim any REAL benefits of hand sewing is an excuse for trying to justify the additional cost. I know of no serious leather craftsman that would abandon their sewing machines in favor of harness needles. No one likes to shoot themselves in the foot in order to make a point that has little validity----Sandy

Hi Sandy

I can understand your points, and I may well fit into one of those categories you have mentioned. The MAIN reason why I still saddle stitch by hand is due to what I have experienced with "machine sewn products", not all, but some belts I purchased and wore only a couple of years, then I noticed the stitching broke. That in and of itself was not a big issue, because I could have mended it, but did not get around to it for a time. I later noticed that the belt was unraveling several stitches and since I did not want dangling thread I tugged at it. Because of the way the machine lock stitch was done, you could literally pull on one side and watch the entire stitching unravel. I have a case I sewed by hand some 30 yrs or so ago. It has been dropped scuffed, and just age alone has not affected the stitching. I have put saddle stitching to the test and if done properly (with the right amount of pressure, using the two needles - whether simultaneously or pulling back thread on one and inserting needle from opposite side), you can literally cut the stitching with a razor blade at any point, and at the most you might be able to tug loose at stress points (by prying apart), 2 or 3 stitches. After that is stops. Since it does not use the "loop" like the lock stitch does - there is no side to unravel. I state that if done properly because once I stitched soft leather once and instead of going the normal spacing of 6 or 7 threads per inch, I tried to space 1/2 in apart and just cinched the leather extra tight giving the entire article a wrinkle affect. Though not common with 5 cord flax linen, I had a bad batch and the thread snapped. The "spring action" of pulling it too tightly DID in fact cause it to unravel. I later repaired the article at no charge, with more proper spacing, better thread, and even pressure keeping things flat. There were no issues to this day after several years. Of course most of us wear machine sewn shoes, and use other equipment that is mass produced, so I am not criticizing machine work as a whole. I only know that for the work I do - mainly guitar straps with flexing, and stressing, I have had excellent results with hand saddle stitching. Yes I charge a bit more for the hand work, but sometimes I discount because I can sew while watching a movie on TV, and allow my contractors to do the same - paying them a flat rate. Much of my work is custom, and I only use stitching for assembly. If the client wants embroidering or decorative stitching, I would recommend those who use a machine to do so.

CT Strickland

[Dangerous Beans]

An interesting perspective Sandy which contains some points well made.
However… and the perspective from which this view is coming is that of a saddle stitcher, a hand sewer, a traditionalist, a craftsman, dare I say it? A foot shooter!
I have used both Saddle Stitch and machines to stitch and I much prefer the hand stitch.
This is more probable due to the fact that I do not produce any production or repeat items; each item is bespoke and tailored to each customer.
Each customer so far… has enjoyed the fact that the items are hand stitched. This is not evidence either way I appreciate, but you get a feel for my stand point, which is valid and not a single foot casualty so far. (There’s time yet)
I have no doubt that a machine will produce a row of stitching much faster, as strong and as aesthetic… well almost!
And this is where, in my humble opinion, the Saddle Stitch wins hand down.
The Machine stitch is let down in the back of the article, the needle often splits the leather and does not lay each stitch very well, this leaves the thread exposed (albeit only slightly) which makes it more prone to wear, and then the running off of any strength the article had.
Not the article of a ‘craftsman’ and no, no craftsman is going to say that they are not as good as someone else, irrelevant of technique or equipment, they would hardly qualify as a craftsman then, would they?
I make heavy leather goods which are designed to take considerable wear; I do not want my items failing because of a rouge thread. So I choose to sew by hand, I stitch at seven stitches per inch per minute.
Not as quick as a machine, but my stitches are laid front and back, with no splits on the rear and are a strong feature of the finished article.
This is why I choose the Saddle Stitch… not because it is better than a machine… there is a place for both… but because it is better for me.
I would not belittle the machine! Far from it, even those without skill can use one, nor would I expect those with one to do the same simply to prove a point.
I think I have made my point, by calming REAL benefits of hand sewing (for me) without making it sound like an excuse to justify… well… anything!
Opinions are something we are all entitled to, enforcing that opinion… well… that’s been done before, hasn’t it?

[luckylee]

An interesting perspective Sandy which contains some points well made.
However… and the perspective from which this view is coming is that of a saddle stitcher, a hand sewer, a traditionalist, a craftsman, dare I say it? A foot shooter!
I have used both Saddle Stitch and machines to stitch and I much prefer the hand stitch.
This is more probable due to the fact that I do not produce any production or repeat items; each item is bespoke and tailored to each customer.
Each customer so far… has enjoyed the fact that the items are hand stitched. This is not evidence either way I appreciate, but you get a feel for my stand point, which is valid and not a single foot casualty so far. (There’s time yet)
I have no doubt that a machine will produce a row of stitching much faster, as strong and as aesthetic… well almost!
And this is where, in my humble opinion, the Saddle Stitch wins hand down.
The Machine stitch is let down in the back of the article, the needle often splits the leather and does not lay each stitch very well, this leaves the thread exposed (albeit only slightly) which makes it more prone to wear, and then the running off of any strength the article had.
Not the article of a ‘craftsman’ and no, no craftsman is going to say that they are not as good as someone else, irrelevant of technique or equipment, they would hardly qualify as a craftsman then, would they?
I make heavy leather goods which are designed to take considerable wear; I do not want my items failing because of a rouge thread. So I choose to sew by hand, I stitch at seven stitches per inch per minute.
Not as quick as a machine, but my stitches are laid front and back, with no splits on the rear and are a strong feature of the finished article.
This is why I choose the Saddle Stitch… not because it is better than a machine… there is a place for both… but because it is better for me.
I would not belittle the machine! Far from it, even those without skill can use one, nor would I expect those with one to do the same simply to prove a point.
I think I have made my point, by calming REAL benefits of hand sewing (for me) without making it sound like an excuse to justify… well… anything!
Opinions are something we are all entitled to, enforcing that opinion… well… that’s been done before, hasn’t it?
ill second that to bud, i have thought about a machine, but there is no recess the other side, for the stitching to lay in, and what i have found is that is where a lot of leather goods fail, because the stitching is not in the stitch groove, as over time the thread will wear and this is when stuff starts to fall apart, i really pay attention to this when making my leather goods, as i want my items to last a very long time, plus by doing it by hand i no that every stitch is done perfectly instead of hoping that the the machine has done it, if that makes sense, i thing if i was churning out the same product over and over again, and there was a high demand for that one item, then this is something i would look into, but because i do bespoke items made to order, then i would rather hand stitch and have piece of mind that when it leaves the workshop, that my customer is going to be happy.
there are times when i have thought, oh i wish i had a machine to do this, but that soon paces, as i would not get the same satisfaction if i did not do it by hand.
this is a great debate, by the way.

[Ian Atkinson]

Necro bump award :)

[bwildered]

Stitching - they did use to do that in 2002? ;)

No experience of machine sewing, but I've liked none of the machine sewn seams I've seen. But it could possibly be, because I've only recognised the badly done ones as being machine made :)
I've not been very impressed by my own hand stitching either, come to think of it...