Damascus bolsters on damascus knives

[Gloria]

:feedback: Im looking to up my skill level a bit and I want to put damascus bolsters on a full tang damascus knife without using screws. Dont get me wrong using screws is fine, just not what I want right now. :D My thought is to drill pin holes in the tang where the bolsters will go and then drill holes in the bolsters only part way through so you dont see the pins. I would then attach the bolsters with JB Weld instead of epoxy. I am finding the JB works better on the metal parts. Is my thinking flawed or is there a simpler way and I am making this too difficult. :twak:

[PS_Bond]

Check out Bob Engnath's manual - he has a similar method for attaching handles using only epoxy, but I'd prefer the belt & braces approach of using both pins & JB Weld...

The only other modification idea that springs to mind right now is to set the pins into one bolster (epoxy and/or interference fit), and make sure that the hole in the other bolster is an interference fit on the pin. Then you'll have a bit more mechanical retention.

[Kevin]

Hi gloria. I have thought about this problem as well.

How about forge welding the bolsters in place?.....I experimented with plain carbon steel and it worked ok......Of course, it would have to be done long before any finishing work.

[ZDP-189]

:feedback: Im looking to up my skill level a bit and I want to put damascus bolsters on a full tang damascus knife without using screws. Dont get me wrong using screws is fine, just not what I want right now. :D My thought is to drill pin holes in the tang where the bolsters will go and then drill holes in the bolsters only part way through so you dont see the pins. I would then attach the bolsters with JB Weld instead of epoxy. I am finding the JB works better on the metal parts. Is my thinking flawed or is there a simpler way and I am making this too difficult. :twak:

Metal loaded epoxy rules!

[Trond]

Hi gloria. I have thought about this problem as well.

How about forge welding the bolsters in place?.....I experimented with plain carbon steel and it worked ok......Of course, it would have to be done long before any finishing work.
Oh that has to be something to try......:)

[stonehard]

Hi Gloria
its is possible to silver solder damascus bolsters to a blade just like you would silver solder any cross guard. you just need to protect the HT part of the blade from the heat of your welding torch. the process is called sweat soldering and has been used in sword making for 100's of years.

[narsil]

How would the strength of a soldered joint compare to an epoxied one?

[stonehard]

How would the strength of a soldered joint compare to an epoxied one?
metal versus plastic,
no problems with epoxy breaking down due to temperature/moisture extremes. very quick to do no curing time.
very nice finish if done correctly. Rolls Royce silver solder all their radiator grills and they are made from stainless steel sheet.
once polished you cant see the join.
the only down side is the need to develop some skill.

[Mike Blue]

All great suggestions. Forge welding the bolsters in place works given the clean up required. How about forging the bolsters in integral fashion and save having three pieces to join together.

About epoxy rivets: leave the inner surfaces fairly rough so the glue has something to grip. Really fine clean surfaces don't hold the glue nearly as well.

Third: if you or someone you know has a smallish lathe, how about turning some pins from the damascus material and then doing the usual pin work with slight upsetting to hold things tightly? The pattern welding on the end of the pin will darn near disappear. Even if some sharp eyed collector/ferengi should see the pins the pattern will say that you took the time to increase the cool factor of your craftspersonship.

Four: get a small dovetail cutter for the mill and cut into the inside of the bolster where the slot won't show and use the epoxy rivet idea from Bob E. the glue will fill the inside of the dovetail and hold much better than little round holes. Or you could use a flat head screw inside the dovetail and slide the bolster over that before gluing.

More wood chips off the top of my head....

[Gloria]

:biggthump Thank you all for your great ideas I got stuck in my box and couldnt see out, ;) I will probably try all of the ideas and see which one works best for me.

[Gloria]

Hi Gloria
its is possible to silver solder damascus bolsters to a blade just like you would silver solder any cross guard. you just need to protect the HT part of the blade from the heat of your welding torch. the process is called sweat soldering and has been used in sword making for 100's of years.
I tried this with a nickle silver bolster, worked great until I accidently knocked something against it and it popped right off. Is there something I missed as far as temp or is it just a matter of practice. When it popped off I check to make sure the solder had flowed through the whole piece and it had.

[Gloria]

All great suggestions. Forge welding the bolsters in place works given the clean up required. How about forging the bolsters in integral fashion and save having three pieces to join together.

About epoxy rivets: leave the inner surfaces fairly rough so the glue has something to grip. Really fine clean surfaces don't hold the glue nearly as well.

Third: if you or someone you know has a smallish lathe, how about turning some pins from the damascus material and then doing the usual pin work with slight upsetting to hold things tightly? The pattern welding on the end of the pin will darn near disappear. Even if some sharp eyed collector/ferengi should see the pins the pattern will say that you took the time to increase the cool factor of your craftspersonship.

Four: get a small dovetail cutter for the mill and cut into the inside of the bolster where the slot won't show and use the epoxy rivet idea from Bob E. the glue will fill the inside of the dovetail and hold much better than little round holes. Or you could use a flat head screw inside the dovetail and slide the bolster over that before gluing.

More wood chips off the top of my head....
You got a sharp ax cause you got some humongus chips comming off the ole noggin. I have a milling machine in the works but money and transportation are an issue right now. I just know that its not going anywhere. I will definatly keep these chips in mind :)

[Gloria]

Hi gloria. I have thought about this problem as well.

How about forge welding the bolsters in place?.....I experimented with plain carbon steel and it worked ok......Of course, it would have to be done long before any finishing work.
Would this work with nickle/carbon damascus? I would be afraid of destroying the nickle.

[stonehard]

I tried this with a nickle silver bolster, worked great until I accidently knocked something against it and it popped right off. Is there something I missed as far as temp or is it just a matter of practice. When it popped off I check to make sure the solder had flowed through the whole piece and it had.

Sounds to me like the flux you used didnt do the job also it is essential that both surfaces be very clean and grease proof
and that the mateing surfaces be wired together or the solder will "float" the bolster off the surface without joining

[Mike Blue]

In re: nickel damascus forge welded to whatever....(this is where I advocate for thermal controls, e.g., a darned good thermometer with a K-type or better thermocouple)

Nickel has a melting temperature of 2651 F, iron at 2800 F. Forge welding temps will succeed at 2350 F so you won't be close to sweating out any nickel. Unless you overshoot the temp by a lot. 2800 degrees will start the refractory melting and the bottom of the forge will be all runny and gooey from the borax or flux you use.

For nickel in particular: get it clean and catch the weld on a rising heat. Don't wait to hit it and let it cool off much, otherwise oxygen will ruin the nickel and you'll never get it welded. Some folks will weld all the seams shut first then forge weld to keep oxygen out. However, that being said, most nickel containing pattern welded steels don't have that much nickel showing on the surface and a good cleaning of the to-be-welded surfaces, intimate contact between said surfaces and you'll succeed handily. Unless, it's a moonless night, or you have a black cat in the shop, or the tides are wrong or if you quench any other direction than north...or the forge trolls just want to make funny on your behalf.

[Kevin]

Would this work with nickle/carbon damascus? I would be afraid of destroying the nickle.

I dont know about pure nickle.

As for the soldering idea.....As you know, soldering guards is mostly as a sealant against moisture and visual...its not really there to secure the guard as the guard is generaly secured by a mechanical ( handle and screw down pommel as an example)...

Personaly, I am not to keen on securing a bolster purely by epoxy...and I would have to think hard about securing it by soldering alone (but thats mostly because my soldering isnt up to a Rolls Royce standard :) )......

How about drilling a small hole in the very centre of the inside of the bolsters. ....tap both holes with a thread (ie 1/4 inch) , screw the bolt in one side (could also solder or braze it in place for extra security or use locktite or similar?),drill a hole through the tang to accomodate the bolt, mate the bolsters and screw them together till they are tight....use epoxy or solder as a sealant.
I have never done this, its just an idea.

[Mike Blue]

But a worthy idea as well. The tough part is getting the all-thread deep enough to hold without poking out the visible side of the bolster. That's one I forgot, thanks Keven. Then you have to twiddle back and forth trimming a bit off each end of the thread until everything seats where you want it.

Nickel oxidizes like crazy when it's hot and won't mate with anything once that happens.

[stonehard]

I have been thinking about this and thought that micro dovetails across the blade allowing dovetailed bolsters to slide in. this would look wonderfull but you would need a blade about 6mm thick to have any depth of dove tail and of course Gloria has no milling machine but my latest idea is even more mental. What about a combined integral liner and bolster in Nickel Damascus this would act like the liners on a folder but be attached to the fixed blade by the scale rivits, or by epoxy or what ever. of course the key benefit is you will never knock it off as it runs the whole length of the handle. An extra bonus would be an easy inclusion of a pommel as it can be made at the same time ie integral bolster-liner-pommel and of course you would have that amazing laminate of scale-liner-blade-liner-scale. It allows you also to skeleton the scales so you can see the nickel damascus through the holes.
I'm so excited by the prospect I might have to try it.

[Mike Blue]

Nothing to stop you from using pattern welded material as scales.

This idea may only work if the tang is straight. How about forging a raised segment in the middle of the tang? Make it wide enough to use the mill and dovetail cutter to undercut the edge of the raised segment and slide scale and bolsters on with some stickum to hold things.

[narsil]

Stoney I have had a very similar idea, if I understand you right. What do you think of this http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4272 not exactly the same but sort of similar, you seem to know a lot about this field so I'd value your opinion.

[stonehard]

Stoney I have had a very similar idea, if I understand you right. What do you think of this http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4272 not exactly the same but sort of similar, you seem to know a lot about this field so I'd value your opinion.
I saw your post and spent some time thinking about it.
it reminds me of the brass/gold/bronze fitting that goes on the blade of a Katana just above the Tsuba. I know squat about jap swords so I dont know what its for or what its called.
I do seem to remember that it goes all around the blade so yours could be made in the form of a sleeve.
Of course the other option is to have another metal welded to the blade I think they call this eutectic you use, say a brass alloy welding rod and build up the surface by welding that rod onto the steel. if you protect the HT of the blade by cooling the treated bit as you weld (dry ice maybe) it might work. arc brazing (gets hot very quickly so slower conduction of heat) might work to do this, then you finish off the job by hand

[Mike Blue]

The brass/gold/bronze thingee is called the habaki.

There are some folks who do braze their guards on. There used to be a pot of stuff called Heat Fence or Heat Stop that you could glob onto the blade to protect the hardened areas. No dry ice needed.

You could diffusion bond the brass or whatever to the steel. That process is the same as making mokume. After you were done laying up the material you'd have to heat treat just the blade. That's a lot of work though.

[MushiSushi]

most good welding or plumbing suppliers do something similar to what Mike described, BES for instance do LA-CO Cool Gel heat barrier spray

[Gloria]

Sounds to me like the flux you used didnt do the job also it is essential that both surfaces be very clean and grease proof
and that the mateing surfaces be wired together or the solder will "float" the bolster off the surface without joining
Well that would explain why they came apart, nobody told me about the wirering bit :noggin: Thanks I will try it again

[Gloria]

In re: nickel damascus forge welded to whatever....(this is where I advocate for thermal controls, e.g., a darned good thermometer with a K-type or better thermocouple)

Nickel has a melting temperature of 2651 F, iron at 2800 F. Forge welding temps will succeed at 2350 F so you won't be close to sweating out any nickel. Unless you overshoot the temp by a lot. 2800 degrees will start the refractory melting and the bottom of the forge will be all runny and gooey from the borax or flux you use.

For nickel in particular: get it clean and catch the weld on a rising heat. Don't wait to hit it and let it cool off much, otherwise oxygen will ruin the nickel and you'll never get it welded. Some folks will weld all the seams shut first then forge weld to keep oxygen out. However, that being said, most nickel containing pattern welded steels don't have that much nickel showing on the surface and a good cleaning of the to-be-welded surfaces, intimate contact between said surfaces and you'll succeed handily. Unless, it's a moonless night, or you have a black cat in the shop, or the tides are wrong or if you quench any other direction than north...or the forge trolls just want to make funny on your behalf.
The forge trolls seem to be enjoying themselves on my behalf, does anybody else have any in thier shop cause they all seem to be here :lmao: Thanks for the info

[Gloria]

I have been thinking about this and thought that micro dovetails across the blade allowing dovetailed bolsters to slide in. this would look wonderfull but you would need a blade about 6mm thick to have any depth of dove tail and of course Gloria has no milling machine but my latest idea is even more mental. What about a combined integral liner and bolster in Nickel Damascus this would act like the liners on a folder but be attached to the fixed blade by the scale rivits, or by epoxy or what ever. of course the key benefit is you will never knock it off as it runs the whole length of the handle. An extra bonus would be an easy inclusion of a pommel as it can be made at the same time ie integral bolster-liner-pommel and of course you would have that amazing laminate of scale-liner-blade-liner-scale. It allows you also to skeleton the scales so you can see the nickel damascus through the holes.
I'm so excited by the prospect I might have to try it.
Ok now I want my milling machine. Love this idea my brain went into overdrive :biggthump

[stonehard]

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