Interesting approach to new Crime reduction bill [Archive] - British Blades

wanderingblade

12-10-07, 09:20 PM

Browsing around I;ve just come across this rather interesting 'work around' on the Battle Orders web site relating to the new Violent Crime Reduction Act.

"The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 is now law as of 1st October 2007./
If you order any of the guns on our website marked V.C.R. in the original advertised finish, you must be an Airsoft Skirmisher, Re-Enactor from all or any periods, theatres and theatre groups, television and film companies, museums and galleries. If you don't fall within these categories, please order the gun in a bright yellow finish. By purchasing in the original finish you are automatically registered as a member of the Battle Orders Historical Re-Enactment Club Ltd. and your details will be kept on record and you are confirming it is legal for you to buy the gun; that's it - you keep buying, we'll keep supplying.

See the whole page here:

http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/NEW_GUN_LAW.html

Interesting.

munkyman

12-10-07, 09:26 PM

but illegal, you need to be a member of an active airsoft team and alos have shown yourself there three times ( or so i believe)

www.arniesairsoft.com has some useful info

Rogan-J

12-10-07, 09:31 PM

Munkyman that link gets me to the mega site of bible studies and information.:huh:

Is it just me?

dra_uk

12-10-07, 10:12 PM

Munkyman that link gets me to the mega site of bible studies and information.:huh:

Is it just me?

It's not just you. Try: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/

Cheers,

Dan

ANDYLASER

13-10-07, 12:51 PM

Or just buy from ebay USA. Probably cheaper too.

jdm61

13-10-07, 02:00 PM

Does anyone else find it ironic tht whenever any kind of "crime reduction" bill is passed, it always seems to create new categories or types of crimes? So how do you reduce crime by increasing the number of criminal offenses that one can be prosecuted for? lol ;) :D

minds_eye

14-10-07, 11:33 AM

I do believe you may have a hard time importing stuff now, at least most legitimate sellers are no longer shipping as quite a few parcels have been held by customs.

I do believe the stipulation for registration in line with ukara (airsofters / retailers register) is to be placed on the database, you must be a member of a skirmish site, which can verify you have played at least 3 times in a 'reasonable amount of time'. You will then be added to the UKARA database, whereby UKARA retailers can access your information.

I'm not entirely convinced what Battleorders is doing is within these guidelines as its effectively saying "if you buy from us, regardless of what you are we will register you as having the right to buy it".

----

Edit>

Just checked at it appears registration to UKARA is not strictly required; what is however required is due dilligence in ascertaining that someone is indeed an airsoft skirmisher etc, so automatic registration seems tad sus :/

Corso

14-10-07, 08:04 PM

Or just buy from ebay USA. Probably cheaper too.

Also illegal so no that wouldn't work

agree with minds_eye but to be honest its battleorders who is breaking the law not the buyer so they must think its worth the risk :!:

Used to be an airsofter myself - got out once the VCRA was accepted by the majority - the 'specific defence' that the ABA/UKARA/ASGB accepted will be very short lived

minds_eye

14-10-07, 08:44 PM

Corso; You're of the opinion the 'specific defence' was rather just something to silence the vocal airsofters, and will be pulled rather soon?

I have to admit I'm very much a make hay whilst the sun shines kind of chap and enjoying my hobby whilst I can ;) I was caught out before, selling up when something went wrong, so now I'm just getting what I can out of it.

Corso

15-10-07, 09:49 AM

Indeed mate the home secretary will pull it within the year. You can still pick up rifs in markets throughout the country - the police dont care and trading standards are out to lunch.

The specific defense was a joke, as was the secrecy behind the deals done by those looking after our interestes. I'm more annoyed about the ABA and its ‘it’s our way or the highway’ approach than anything else. Fair enough they got the ball rolling – but it was clearly their ball and they weren’t letting anyone else play with it.

I’m also annoyed that it was the players who gained representation as stake holders but this was hijacked by the site owners and retailers for their own interests – ironic really as you cant be a stake holder if you have a direct financial interest.

Anyway rant over if it wasn’t for the VCRA I wouldn’t have resurrected my other interests and wouldn’t be on this fine forum. I’d still be spending every Sunday shooting one and all with plastic pellets in some wood in Kent– my misses and my bank manager are much happier.

ANDYLASER

15-10-07, 01:18 PM

Also illegal so no that wouldn't work

No its not. The bill has no effect on purchases made abroad. To do so would me tantamount to a trade embargo, thus overseas sales are allowed.

Corso

15-10-07, 02:03 PM

No its not. The bill has no effect on purchases made abroad. To do so would me tantamount to a trade embargo, thus overseas sales are allowed.

Pretty sure it is mate

VCRA (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2006/ukpga_20060038_en_5#pt2-pb5-l1g36)

36 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms (1) A person is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;
(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;
(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

Tink

15-10-07, 02:36 PM

No its not. The bill has no effect on purchases made abroad. To do so would me tantamount to a trade embargo, thus overseas sales are allowed.

As Corso said. its now ilegal to buy, sell, import, manufacture or exprot (presumably) any 'Realistic Imitation Firearm' unless you can prove you have need of it. either being a member of an Airsoft site, re-enactment group, or theatre company.

corso, I agree with you. i met minimiman once ('leader' of the ABA) and he failed to answer any of my questions properly.

fair enough, like you say, they tried to get something done, but nobody elected them, or even agreed to have them represent us. i know that minimiman and the people he skirmished with are fairly hardcore milsimmers, which i personally dont like. i'd much rather a group of say, 100 people were randomly selected, and then elected one person out of that 100 to act as a representative to the government, with the 100 being picked from around the country, from both milsim, 'spray and pray' and possibly paintball/airsoft sites.

i'm out of airsoft at the moment, but only due to money problems :(

dont suppose you want to buy my old TM MP5K, do you? ;)

Corso

15-10-07, 02:54 PM

Decided not to sign up myself as I'm out of airsoft - got sick of the politics,

minds_eye

15-10-07, 05:48 PM

I do agree with what's been said for the most part, unfortunately whilst there might have been better people to represent the masses, it seemed to fall that the people that were actually willing to step up and do something were these.

I'm sure their would have been better ways and better outcomes, but for the moment I've stripped my kit down enough that i'll not lose out too much when the game comes to an end :)

ANDYLASER

15-10-07, 06:18 PM

My apologies. I missunderstood the post. I was refering to airguns, not airsoft.

Tink

15-10-07, 10:03 PM

Fair enough. it does make no sense at all, though, that you can still buy blank firers and airguns legally, but not our toys :(

i'm in the process (kind of) of converting my King Arms SVD replica into a semi auto gas powered evil DMR of awesome. all i need is a suitable donor, and a VSR barrel and hop unit... *sigh*

Martyn

16-10-07, 09:21 AM

(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

Hmmm, this is interesting.

Does this mean I can no longer sell my Walther CP99?

http://www.britishblades.com/pics/walther/cp99010.jpg

It's still legal to own though, right?

Andy

16-10-07, 09:44 AM

I thought there was a provision for second hand sales not being effected.
I also thuoght your pistol was a design in it's own right and not a replica of a gun (like a airsoft AEG with G36C printed on it)

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 09:44 AM

My understanding of the new bill states air weapons are legal to own but can only be bought in a face to face transaction with a registered dealer so you couldn't sell it here.

Section 31:

"Prohibition on sale or transfer of air weapons except by registered dealers
(1) In subsection (1) of section 3 of the 1968 Act (offence for a person other than a
registered firearms dealer to sell etc. a firearm or ammunition by way of trade
or business), at the end of paragraph (b) insert “or
(c) sells or transfers an air weapon, exposes such a weapon for sale
or transfer or has such a weapon in his possession for sale or
transfer,”.

Section 32:

Sales of air weapons by way of trade or business to be face to face
(1) This section applies where a person sells an air weapon by way of trade or
business to an individual in Great Britain who is not registered as a firearms
dealer.
(2) A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purposes of the sale, he transfers
possession of the air weapon to the buyer otherwise than at a time when both—
(a) the buyer, and
(b) either the seller or a representative of his,
are present in person.

There has been some discussion regarding whether a private sale constitutes 'Trade or Business'. Obviously you could not be considered a trader in air guns (don't like the term air weapons) but a sale or transaction involving the transfer of ownership of an air gun between 2 people could reasonably be considered a trade thus being covered by the act.

I may be wrong but it may take a test case to define the true boundries and restrictions this new act imposes.

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 09:45 AM

Cones

16-10-07, 09:58 AM

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 10:41 AM

I've re-read the VCRB and can't see any exception which exempts second hand sales from the new legislation.

I think this may be a case of assuming 'trade or business' can only apply to someone who makes a living selling air guns. This is not so as I believe a transaction between 2 people could reasonably be regarded as a trade.

Just because it happens, shouldn't mean you assume it's legal - specially on the web!

I'm perfectly willing to accept my reading of the bill is wrong but unless there are specific exemptions for second hand sales stated in the act then I'd have to take it that these sales are covered by the same regulations as new item sales. Otherwise all online dealers would simply unpackage all of their stock, stick a few pellets through it and sell all of their stock as second hand!

minds_eye

16-10-07, 12:09 PM

Tapping this out quickly whilst getting ready for work, but certainly most of the main Airsoft BBS / Forums have stopped sales of Replica imitation firearms (be that air, airsoft or blankfirer). I wasn't aware that air guns were effected, but then I guess its a sticky wicket as to what exactly a RIF is.

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 12:46 PM

but then I guess its a sticky wicket as to what exactly a RIF is.

Here you go:

Section 38:

Meaning of “realistic imitation firearm”
(1) In sections 36 and 37 “realistic imitation firearm” means an imitation firearm
which—
(a) has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for
all practical purposes, from a real firearm; and
(b) is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique.
Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38)

Part 2 — Weapons etc.
40
(2) For the purposes of this section, an imitation firearm is not (except by virtue of
subsection (3)(b)) to be regarded as distinguishable from a real firearm for any
practical purpose if it could be so distinguished only—
(a) by an expert;
(b) on a close examination; or
(c) as a result of an attempt to load or to fire it.
(3) In determining for the purposes of this section whether an imitation firearm is
distinguishable from a real firearm—
(a) the matters that must be taken into account include any differences
between the size, shape and principal colour of the imitation firearm
and the size, shape and colour in which the real firearm is
manufactured; and
(b) the imitation is to be regarded as distinguishable if its size, shape or
principal colour is unrealistic for a real firearm.
(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that, for the purposes of
subsection (3)(b)—
(a) the size of an imitation firearm is to be regarded as unrealistic for a real
firearm only if the imitation firearm has dimensions that are less than
the dimensions specified in the regulations; and
(b) a colour is to be regarded as unrealistic for a real firearm only if it is a
colour specified in the regulations.
(5) The power of the Secretary of State to make regulations under this section shall
be exercisable by statutory instrument subject to annulment in pursuance of a
resolution of either House of Parliament.
(6) That power includes power—
(a) to make different provision for different cases;
(b) to make provision subject to such exemptions and exceptions as the
Secretary of State thinks fit; and
(c) to make such incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional
provision as he thinks fit.
(7) In this section—
“colour” is to be construed in accordance with subsection (9);
“de-activated firearm” means an imitation firearm that consists in
something which—
(a) was a firearm; but
(b) has been so rendered incapable of discharging a shot, bullet or
other missile as no longer to be a firearm;
“real firearm” means—
(a) a firearm of an actual make or model of modern firearm
(whether existing or discontinued); or
(b) something falling within a description which could be used for
identifying, by reference to their appearance, the firearms
falling within a category of actual modern firearms which, even
though they include firearms of different makes or models
(whether existing or discontinued) or both, all have the same or
a similar appearance.

Martyn

16-10-07, 12:55 PM

I also thuoght your pistol was a design in it's own right and not a replica of a gun (like a airsoft AEG with G36C printed on it)

Well it's made by Umarex, but officially licenced by Walther I believe and uses some genuine Walther parts and moldings.

The frame is based on the Walther P99, 9mm semi-automatic handgun...

http://remtek.com/arms/walther/model/p99/p99.gif

and for side by side comparison, my CP99 again...

http://www.britishblades.com/pics/walther/cp99008.jpg

There is also the Walther P22 which forms part of the family and is chambered for the rimfire .22 LR cartridge.

http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/p22.jpg

All of em would look pretty much identical to most people at any distance.

Corso

16-10-07, 12:55 PM

My apologies. I misunderstood the post. I was referring to airguns, not airsoft.

NP mate its a very badly written piece of legislation. But for airguns the CPS might try and use the face to face aspect of the bill. As for trade embargos etc. there is plenty of stuff you can’t buy/import legally in this country so restricting plastic guns etc are unlikely to cause too many international issues- unless of course the US were the main importer ;)

I do agree with what's been said for the most part, unfortunately whilst there might have been better people to represent the masses, it seemed to fall that the people that were actually willing to step up and do something were these. QUOTE]

fair point but there were plenty of people and individual groups who were willing to step up - the ABA 'got there first' - but certainly didn't 'get there best'.

There was quite an active put down of all other ideas, approaches or rival groups by the ABA from the start - they definatly didn't want any alternative opinion watering down their 'power'. Even when they lost a player rep they weren't interested in a replacement from the airsoft community.

[QUOTE=Martyn;651919]Hmmm, this is interesting.

Does this mean I can no longer sell my Walther CP99?

http://www.britishblades.com/pics/walther/cp99010.jpg

It's still legal to own though, right?

Legal to own yes - for now at least. as for selling it its a bit of a tricky one it depends on whether its seen as a Realistic Replica Firearm or an air pistol designated the Walther CP99 - certainly if you shot someone with it CPS would try for a 'lethal barreled' weapon due to its power (another lengthy debate).

but as WB has suggested sales of airguns also seems restricted by the bill so the way I see it you'd only be guaranteed safe if you sell it to a registered firearms.

I see nowhere in the legislation that states secondhand sales are OK for airguns will have a reread as I focused on the airsoft parts as that was my interest.

I do know that the airsoft 'specific defense' only applies to airsoft gear.

Of course as with anything cooked up by this government we will only really know once a test case has taken place- it'll be for the judges to sort this mess out.

damn what a ramble I need lunch…..

Cones

16-10-07, 12:57 PM

Perhaps the fact that an air gun is not classed as an imitation firearm but as a firearm itself is the reason?

To be fair the VCR laws still have most of the dealers scratching their heads over the exact interpretation of them. The sales of components parts is a major area of contention.

Mark

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 01:21 PM

Perhaps the fact that an air gun is not classed as an imitation firearm but as a firearm itself is the reason?

As the bill refers to 'Air weapons' I'd take it to relate to any gun which uses pneumatic pressure to fire a projectile?

Hand in your pea-shooters lads!

Cones

16-10-07, 01:30 PM

Section 31: Prohibition on sale or transfer of air weapons except by registered
dealers
This section makes it an offence for anyone to sell or transfer an air weapon by way of trade or
business unless they are registered with the police as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the
1968 Act.

You could read that quote either way! :rolleyes:

Mark

Martyn

16-10-07, 01:47 PM

Perhaps the fact that an air gun is not classed as an imitation firearm but as a firearm itself is the reason?

Mark, I think in legal terms, even inert, deactivated, toy or imitation firearms are classed simply as "firearms". If you rob a bank with a plastic or toy gun, the court wont make a distinction between that and a real semi-auto.

What I want to know, is my CP99 classed as an imitation of the P99 and restricted thusly?

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 01:54 PM

Wheres Danzo when you need 'im?

I posted the definition of a RIF earlier (post 25) - I guess if your CP99 (nice one by the way, I used to have one) could have this definition applied to it then it could be classed as a RIF.

I think only those guns in bright colours or translucent are exempt from the restrictions so if you paint it pink you'll be fine to sell it on.

Legality of ownership has remained unchanged other that a raising of the age from 16 to 18 so you'r fine to own and use this gun as before - the new legislation only deals with the sale or transfer of ownership.

Again, this in only my understanding of the bill having read it through a few times.

Martyn

16-10-07, 02:04 PM

That's what I read too, but I notice BAR are still selling em....
http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showproducts.asp?cat=Pistols&SubCat=CO2%20Pistols

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 02:08 PM

That's what I read too, but I notice BAR are still selling em....
http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showproducts.asp?cat=Pistols&SubCat=CO2%20Pistols

Thats right - in line with the new laws they will sell one in a face to face transaction or send it to your local registered firearms dealer.
Online / home delivery sales will not be completed.

Air weapons are not being banned, just the sale of them restricted.

Martyn

16-10-07, 02:18 PM

Thats right - in line with the new laws they will sell one in a face to face transaction or send it to your local registered firearms dealer.
Online / home delivery sales will not be completed.

Air weapons are not being banned, just the sale of them restricted.

I meant that BAR are still selling the CP99 pistol, with no apparent restrictions for re-enactment or anything, so tyhey dont seem to consider them as "imitation".

Corso

16-10-07, 02:29 PM

Mark, I think in legal terms, even inert, deactivated, toy or imitation firearms are classed simply as "firearms". If you rob a bank with a plastic or toy gun, the court wont make a distinction between that and a real semi-auto.

Pretty sure that is specifically covered in the firearms legislation as is having a bannana in your pocket that you pass off as a firearm. Its about whether the victim is convinced the person had a firearm, it does not have to be identified as such.

What I want to know, is my CP99 classed as an imitation of the P99 and restricted thusly?

I think one of the areas where this act falls flat is it tries to define anything gun shaped as either a firearm, a realistic replica fire arm or a replica firearm without actually defining what a firearm is - there is a very grey area as to at which point an airsoft gun becomes an air weapon and/or a firearm the only functional difference in alot of cases is the size/type of the projectile fired -

Once the power rised above 1.35joules things get very grey indeed - infact one of the longest debates on airsoft forums is whether a plastic AEG that fires full auto above 1.35joules becomes a section 5 lethal barreled firearm!

but TBH I dont see were in the legislation it matters whether the CP99 is a RIF or an airpistol - sales are still prohibited to a firearms dealer - an airsofter for instance couldn't buy it as it cannot be used for airsoft and thus is not covered by the specific defence.

Can anyone show me where second hand sales of airguns is not covered I've reread the act and see no specific mention that the new laws only apply to new purchases?

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 02:32 PM

Air weapons are only allowed to be sold face to face etc.

RIF are now banned to all intents and purposes.

It is hard to see the line between the two as air guns are in effect replica firearms? Would it be a defence if you were charged with importing a replica firearm if you could show it was in fact an air weapon being shipped to a registered firearms dealer?

Again, we need the legals here.

Danzo

16-10-07, 02:39 PM

Wheres Danzo when you need 'im?

:popworm:

The wording of this legislation throughout seems vague, even obtuse in parts. That may be through oversight or it may be intentional. Vague legislation allows politicians to shift the goalposts from where they were at the consultation and discussion stage, whilst still claiming they didn't break any promises made.

I suspect that case law is going to be required to give a judicial interpretation of what the legislation specifically intends, and how it is to be precisely applied. It's certainly not clear to me on an initial reading. I'll look at it more closely, but I'm not too hopeful that I'll be any clearer!

:rolleyes:

Danzo

Martyn

16-10-07, 02:50 PM

Air weapons are only allowed to be sold face to face etc.

RIF are now banned to all intents and purposes..

I'm puzzled here....

The VCR says...

Section 31: Prohibition on sale or transfer of air weapons except by registered dealers. This section makes it an offence for anyone to sell or transfer an air weapon by way of trade or business unless they are registered with the police as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the 1968 Act. The Commencement Order will bring into effect from 6 April only the sections that apply to the application process. The actual restrictions on sales will be introduced later in the year giving air gun retailers opportunity to apply for registration prior to trade sales being restricted to registered dealers.

The line "by way of trade or business" makes it pretty clear this Act applies to sellers who are trading in air rifles, not private sales of pre-owned items. Obviously the aim is to kill off mail order traders like BAR. It's trashy legalese because it doesnt define "trade" or "business", but it definitely doesnt include "private sales".

According to that, there is no restriction on me selling my CP99 on these forums and sending it through the post. What I want to know is, is the (second hand, private, non-trade, non-dealer) sale of my CP99 restricted because it looks like a P99?

Cones

16-10-07, 02:51 PM

A good thread on the same subject is here :- http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225012&highlight=crime+reduction

It again states that second hand private sales of air guns are NOT effected by the new law.

Thanks

Mark

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 02:58 PM

Again, open to being put right here but I believe 'trade OR business' means those who sell these items as their business or anyone who trades / sells / offers for sale an air gun.

Wouldn't a private sale online be percieved as a trade between 2 people? I think the assumption that this act only implies to businesses is mistaken.

As previously mentioned, I think it will take a test case to see how this act is interpreted. Just don't want any member here to be the guinea pig!

Martyn

16-10-07, 02:59 PM

Consider these two lines, the first if from the new Act...

This section makes it an offence for anyone to sell or transfer an air weapon by way of trade or business unless they are registered with the police as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the 1968 Act.

The next is my own edit...

This section makes it an offence for anyone to sell or transfer an air weapon unless they are registered with the police as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the 1968 Act.

See the difference? It's the specific inclusion of "by way of trade or business" that means they are permitting second hand sales. If they simply wanted to blanket ban all internet sales, they would of used my edited version. See?

Danzo

16-10-07, 03:00 PM

Folks, has anyone got a full copy of the act to hand?

In some acts the definitions of certain specific terms can be found at the very beginning. It's possible the terms such as 'trade' or business' may be defined before the opening of the act proper, if they are vital to the understanding and interpretation of the act.

Danzo

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 03:01 PM

I've got a copy - I'll email it through.

Cones

16-10-07, 03:02 PM

Martyn

16-10-07, 03:03 PM

Again, open to being put right here but I believe 'trade OR business' means those who sell these items as their business or anyone who trades / sells / offers for sale an air gun.

Wouldn't a private sale online be percieved as a trade between 2 people? I think the assumption that this act only implies to businesses is mistaken.

In law, trade sales and private sales are quite distinctly different.

Danzo

16-10-07, 03:08 PM

I've got a copy - I'll email it through.

Can you find a definition section anywhere?

As Martyn says. the law generally draws a distinction between private sales (two private individuals) and trade/business where at least one party is operating on a commercial footing.

Danzo

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 03:08 PM

I think the hundreds of sales on a forum owned and run by a valid business is proof enough of this.

The airgunBBS has never condoned any illegal activities and if it was deemed to be a problem then the sales section would be closed.

Mark

I've not seen this forum but hopefully they've had their legal guys look into it and we're all getting our knickers in a twist about nothing.

My only motivation in getting a 'hard' definition of the new legislation is to avoid anyone here falling foul of the law through lack of clarity. I don't deal in air guns, never will now, but I don't know if the 'everyone else is doing it so why cant I' defence would stand?

I remember alot of reputable sites continued to sell extendable batons for several months after they were banned - maybe while the exact meaning of the new legislation was confirmed?

Anyhoo, I sincerely hope your right.

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 03:17 PM

Can you find a definition section anywhere?

As Martyn says. the law generally draws a distinction between private sales (two private individuals) and trade/business where at least one party is operating on a commercial footing.

Danzo

I can't see a list of definitions but I guess the heading 'Prohibition on sale or transfer of air weapons except by registered dealers' for section 31 says it all?

(You should have a copy through by now)

Martyn

16-10-07, 03:17 PM

Still doesnt answer my question though. Lets just assume for a minute, that second hand sales are perfectly legal and we are no longer interested in that bit of legislation.

Is the sale of a second-hand CP99 illegal because it looks like a P99?

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 03:22 PM

As post #37 - your guess is as good as mine on that one.

Danzo

16-10-07, 03:25 PM

Is the sale of a second-hand CP99 illegal because it looks like a P99?

I guess one would need to establish 'how much' it looks like the P99 to properly answer that question. How exact a copy is a replica?

Does it mean exact in every detail? Obviously not, because then it would be fully working clone or copy.

Exact in all external detail? But then it has a 'C' before the '99'.......

I genuinely don't know. I suspect neither does anyone else!

Danzo

Martyn

16-10-07, 04:12 PM

I guess one would need to establish 'how much' it looks like the P99 to properly answer that question. How exact a copy is a replica?

Does it mean exact in every detail? Obviously not, because then it would be fully working clone or copy.

Exact in all external detail? But then it has a 'C' before the '99'.......

I genuinely don't know. I suspect neither does anyone else!

Danzo

from earlier....

Section 38:

Meaning of “realistic imitation firearm”
(1) In sections 36 and 37 “realistic imitation firearm” means an imitation firearm
which—
(a) has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for
all practical purposes, from a real firearm; and
(b) is neither a de-activated firearm nor itself an antique.
Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 3

Part 2 — Weapons etc.
40
(2) For the purposes of this section, an imitation firearm is not (except by virtue of
subsection (3)(b)) to be regarded as distinguishable from a real firearm for any
practical purpose if it could be so distinguished only—
(a) by an expert;
(b) on a close examination; or
(c) as a result of an attempt to load or to fire it.

The guns in question....

The real steel 9mm semi-auto...

http://remtek.com/arms/walther/model/p99/p99.gif

My .177 air pistol...

http://www.britishblades.com/pics/walther/cp99008.jpg

Corso

16-10-07, 05:17 PM

but your two examples are defining a realistic replica firearm (standrad airsoft toy for example) and a replica firearm (same shape but obviously not real e.g. seethrough!)

- neather define a particular airpistol Walther CP99 that is modeled on a Walther P99 - its alot like the Makarov thats built in a makarov factory with 90% original pistol parts - that could be argued is a airpistol not a replica as the parts are not a copy - its a very grey area that case law can only answer.

ANDYLASER

16-10-07, 05:58 PM

Danzo

16-10-07, 07:35 PM

As the Walther is by law an airpistol, it is therefore not an imitation firearm.

Can an airpistol also be an imitation firearm though? There is virtually nothing to choose between the two pics posted by Martyn IMHO, although I freely admit my knowledge of airguns, airsoft guns and replica guns is scant.

However even if the legislation fully intended to protect airpistols which appear to be 'real' firearms, we all know full well that this doesn't mean that a judicial decision will uphold that intended protection.

I suspect that an airpistol version of Harris v DPP is on the horizon.

Danzo

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 07:41 PM

As many air pistols are modeled on actual firearms, it is very difficult to see how any real distinction can be made between these and RIF's?

I believe the legislation was drawn up to curb the use of imitation firearms for criminal purposes - but I really doubt an SO13 officer can distinguish between replica and air pistol?

george

16-10-07, 07:43 PM

As the Walther is by law an airpistol, it is therefore not an imitation firearm.

I know its confusing but its either-

Imitation firearm- water pistol
Realistic imitation - airsoft (and probably blank firers)
Firearm - air pistol (in this case)

Hmmnn - thats an interesting one. Is an air pistol classed in law as a firearm?

If it is then it cant be an imitation - it's the real thing.

Seems logical to me - what have I missed?

George

ANDYLASER

16-10-07, 07:51 PM

Hmmnn - thats an interesting one. Is an air pistol classed in law as a firearm?

If it is then it cant be an imitation - it's the real thing.

Seems logical to me - what have I missed?

George

Yes. It is a firearm.
Ableit one which requires no license if under 6 or 12ft/lbs energy (pistol/rifle)

It is a firearm and therefore not an imitation.

Danzo

16-10-07, 08:26 PM

It is a firearm and therefore not an imitation.

But a locking folder isn't a fixed blade.......oh, wait.....

:rolleyes:

Danzo

wanderingblade

16-10-07, 08:30 PM

:lol:

Martyn

17-10-07, 12:05 AM

Yes. It is a firearm.
Ableit one which requires no license if under 6 or 12ft/lbs energy (pistol/rifle)

It is a firearm and therefore not an imitation.

You would think so wouldn't you. The CP99 is made in Germany by Umarex under license from Walther and some of the moldings from the P99 are used. Some parts are even interchangeable - the handle backstrap for instance or the magazine release. The CP99 isn't an imitation, it is in fact a .177 air powered version of the same gun. There is also a .22 rimfire version (the P22, made under license by Smith & Wesson), a 9mm version, a .357 Sig version and a .40 auto version. None are "imitations" but variations of the same pistol.

Problem is, I'm pretty sure that's not how a police officer would see it and I think it would take a clever lawyer to convince a judge as well.

ANDYLASER

17-10-07, 12:47 AM

As long as you use it responsibly on private land, you will have no worries.

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 08:14 AM

As long as you use it responsibly on private land, you will have no worries.

'till you try and sell it online!

mirage

17-10-07, 09:42 AM

...reputable sites continued to sell extendable batons for several months after they were banned...

:huh:

Extendable batons are an offensive weapons per se.

As such, they were "banned" in 1953, years before they - or the Internet - were invented...

:huh:

mirage

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 09:49 AM

:huh:

Extendable batons are an offensive weapons per se.

As such, they were "banned" in 1953, years before they - or the Internet - were invented...

:huh:

mirage

But it was only in 2005/6 (I believe) it was added to the offensive weapons list - until that time they were legal to purchase.

Cones

17-10-07, 10:14 AM

'till you try and sell it online!

You can still buy them new from dealers so they are not a problem. As Andy said they are not replicas, they are classed as fire arms.

http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showproducts.asp?cat=CO2&SubCat=CO2%20Pistols#Walther%20CP88%20Tactical

HTH

Mark

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 10:49 AM

You can still buy them new from dealers so they are not a problem. As Andy said they are not replicas, they are classed as fire arms.

http://www.airgunbuyer.com/Showproducts.asp?cat=CO2&SubCat=CO2%20Pistols#Walther%20CP88%20Tactical

HTH

Mark

Maybe I'm not being clear - more than likely!

There seem to be 2 issues with the new bill:

1. Can a person sell an air gun online buy way of private transaction.

2. Could an air gun be classed as a replica firearm if it is modeled on, or closely resembles a real gun.

In your link it states they will sell face to face or post to your local registered dealer - my point was that private sales or second hand sales are not specifically exempted in the new legislation so, as yet, the position on second hand / private sales is unclear.

Again, I hope I'm wrong - probably playing Devils advocate here but personally I don't want to see anyone here be the test case.

ANDYLASER

17-10-07, 12:56 PM

1. Can a person sell an air gun online buy way of private transaction.
YES - Provided the item is second hand. Also online sales from dealers outside of the UK are still allowed.

2. Could an air gun be classed as a replica firearm if it is modeled on, or closely resembles a real gun.
NO. It is either a replica firearm or a real firearm (in this case air pistol)

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 03:06 PM

Martyn

17-10-07, 05:50 PM

2. Could an air gun be classed as a replica firearm if it is modeled on, or closely resembles a real gun.
NO. It is either a replica firearm or a real firearm (in this case air pistol)

Hmmmm ...does replica imitation firearm, mean a firearm that is a replica or imitation of another firearm, or a replica or imitation of a firearm?

It's the difference between...

replica, imitation firearm
and
replica imitation, firearm

It's crappy legislation if it boils down to where you put the comma, but I cant work out whether it means a firearm that is a replica of another or something that is a replica of a firearm? Confused? I am.

ANDYLASER

17-10-07, 06:38 PM

As your Walther is an air pistol by law, it doesnt really matter.

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 07:08 PM

As your Walther is an air pistol by law, it doesnt really matter.

Again - post # 64?

ANDYLASER

17-10-07, 07:48 PM

Taken from "Firearms law, Guidance to the Police" Copyright HMSO

Chapter 2 - Definition and classification of firearms.

2.26 Firearm and shotgun certificates are required in respect of the majority of firearms and ammunition. However, the following are exempt.

i) Air weapons and ammunition for air and gas operated weapons.

Therefore, according to the Home office, CO2 guns are "air guns" or "non licensable firearms".

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 08:02 PM

OK. I sincerely hope I'm not being thick here - if I am feel free to let me know but I've never questioned how air guns are catagorised. My point was this:

You cannot sell and air gun unless you are a registered firearms dealer.

There is no mention of second hand sales / private sales in the legislation so is it safe to assume it's legal?

I did question whether an air gun could be classed as a replica firearm - this may only be settled in a test case. We all know air guns are covered by firearms legislation but in a case where someone has used for example a CP99 to hold up a post office, would they face charges including 'replica firearm' offences?

My thinking is like this - a shovel is a normal everyday tool. Take it out of the shed and run through the High St. whacking people with it and it becomes and offensive weapon. So, could the circumstance alter whether a CP99 is seen as a air gun or replica firearm? (as it could be accuratly described as either as it is a near exact copy of the C99) Is part of the definition of a replica firearm the fact that it is not capable of fireing a projectile? If so then that would settle it.

Again, I'm no expert but if I'm to get my reading of this act right then it will need to be from a verifiable source rather than a general opinion.

ANDYLASER

17-10-07, 08:23 PM

OK. I sincerely hope I'm not being thick here - if I am feel free to let me know but I've never questioned how air guns are catagorised. My point was this:

You cannot sell and air gun unless you are a registered firearms dealer.

Correct for sale of NEW guns. Second hand trades are still allowed. Also sales of new guns from abroad is allowed, (including mail order).

There is no mention of second hand sales / private sales in the legislation so is it safe to assume it's legal?

Yes:D

I did question whether an air gun could be classed as a replica firearm - this may only be settled in a test case. We all know air guns are covered by firearms legislation but in a case where someone has used for example a CP99 to hold up a post office, would they face charges including 'replica firearm' offences?

If you held up a post office or committed any "violent" type crime. Yoy would be dealt with as if you had a REAL firearm.

My thinking is like this - a shovel is a normal everyday tool. Take it out of the shed and run through the High St. whacking people with it and it becomes and offensive weapon. So, could the circumstance alter whether a CP99 is seen as a air gun or replica firearm? (as it could be accuratly described as either as it is a near exact copy of the C99) Is part of the definition of a replica firearm the fact that it is not capable of fireing a projectile? If so then that would settle it.

Again, I'm no expert but if I'm to get my reading of this act right then it will need to be from a verifiable source rather than a general opinion.

There are many threads about this on AirgunBBS (http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/) I have been doing my homework there.:)

wanderingblade

17-10-07, 08:32 PM

Martyn

17-10-07, 10:38 PM

OK. We'll go with that, good enough for me.

I'd personally like to see the second hand sales issue covered officially but if the general view is that it is ok then that's cool.

Does this mean all of the stores who were selling air guns can, as previously mentioned, stick a few pellets through all of the guns in stock, knock a quid off the price and sell them (legitimately) as second hand and continue trading pretty much as before?

Anyway, thanks for all of your time helping get this straight!:)

No, cos they are traders/dealers. A private sale, is by definition "secondhand". Individual, private sales are allowed. Traders and dealers cannot trade via the internet, regardless of whether their stock is new or used. The legislation is targetted at people who sell "by way of trade or business", not individuals selling their own private property.

A “trader” is any person who trades in the course of business, with the intention of making a profit.