View Full Version : Forging a clip point Bowie to shape
My forge is now set back up after a long absence.
This is something I started today, ..my first project in a while.
I dont know if anyones interested.?.
I will post my progress anyway :)
My attempts to forge a clip point 7 inch blade bowie forged from a 3/4 inch diameter bar of 52100 steel. ..should be about 11 1/2 inches overall length when I finished.
First, the bar is flattened, to about a 1/4 thick and and 1 1/4 inch wide.
http://www.coutelcutlery.com/flattening%20bar_small.jpg
Then a spear point is forged http://www.coutelcutlery.com/forging%20spear%20point_small.jpg
The point is forged downwards so the bottom edge is flat..this will eventualy be the cutting edge http://www.coutelcutlery.com/offesetting%20point_small.jpg
A 'heel' is formed with the hammer, resting the steel against a sharp edge of the anvil. This forms the transition between the ricasso and blade, and is where the plungs line will be established. Blows have to be pretty accurate as I dont want the hammer to hit the ricasso and deform it.
http://www.coutelcutlery.com/forming%20heal%20transition_small.jpg
The edge is formed and at the same time, a taper is forged towards the point.
http://www.coutelcutlery.com/taking%20shape_small.jpg
The clip is then formed with the edge. Hammering from ricasso to point raises the point and from point to ricasso lowers it..so its a bit of fine tuning with the hammer to get it just where I want it.
http://www.coutelcutlery.com/curving%20the%20clip_small.jpg
The bar is then cut leaving a 3 inch stub which I then forge out to form a 5 inch tang...I will eventualy thread the end and screw a pommel cap on.
The knife http://www.coutelcutlery.com/forged%20to%20shape_small.jpg will now be normalised three times to reduce any stresses then annealed before grinding.
Providing my grinding and heat treatment is not a failure!, I will post more later if anyones interested.
Ive been told before but, can you tell me what normalizing means ?
Thanks,
Johan
ggfh666
03-07-04, 03:09 PM
Thanks for showing the different steps in the shaping.
Ive been told before but, can you tell me what normalizing means ?
Thanks,
Johan
I am discussing basic carbon steels here,the ones commonly used to forge a blade...I dont know enough about the stainless varieties.
Basicaly, 'normalising' is a method that relieves any uneven stresses and refines the grain structure that may have occurred during the forging process (highly likely), or stock removal proces (possible uneven stresses from the grinding rather than anlarged crystal form).
When you forge steel, and particularly when forge welding, the crystaline structure of the steel can grow as a direct result of the heat.
A simple test:......Take two test pieces of steel and heat them both past critical temperature ( past non magnetic) a few times....harden one piece of steel (dont temper it), then snap the steel in half (take care and wear safety goggles/visor and gloves etc as protection against flying chards of steel!!), you will see a dark gray coloured course grain structure..it almost resembles cast steel (to me anyway).
With the second piece of steel, go through three normalisation processes and snap it to look at the grain.You will see a BIG difference in grain size. If done properly , it will be a smooth silky texture and a light grey colour.
The course grain can be seen with the naked eye, but the fine grain may need a magnifying glass to be seen.
To get the best performance and edge holding from a knife, the grain structure needs to be fine.
To normalise is very easy......Slowly heat the steel to a point just where a magnet is not attracted, remove it from the heat and let it air cool (still air) until its black (no redness), then repeat two more times...thats it.
'Annealing' is a similar process, but instead of air cooling, the steel is cooled very very slowly.....I usualy bury the blade in wood ash or a cooling forge. This softens and de stresses the steel and in some cases is a preparatory treatment to heat treating some steels.
'Normalising' really does pay dividends when heat treating....and is a good insurance against blades warping (especialy longer ones).
But do the tests yourself and make your own conclusions :)
Hope this helps explain your question.
There is a LOT information out there which goes into a lot more technical details than I can....I can only just about grasp it myself...but its interesting stuff if you want to learn more.
:)
PS_Bond
03-07-04, 03:29 PM
That's a good, er, blow-by-blow account Kev. Now - how do you stop the spine of the blade kinking up just forward of the ricasso when you forge the bevels in? The preform doesn't go far enough back to prevent it... :)
That's a good, er, blow-by-blow account Kev. Now - how do you stop the spine of the blade kinking up just forward of the ricasso when you forge the bevels in? The preform doesn't go far enough back to prevent it... :)
I think I know what you mean....how do you keep the spine straight just in front of the ricasso?
This is how I do it:
You know where the underside of the ricasso is (just before the heel).....Lay the blade across the width of the anvil so the bottom flat of the ricasso is up tight against the anvil corner (the heel and ricasso acting as a 90 degree angle aganst the anvil edge).
I use a 4 lb hammer, and strike the spine so half the hammer would hit above the anvil and the other half just off (does that make sense?)...not only will it bring the spine down to straight but it will also help further form the bottom of the ricasso and make a nice 90 angle....as with most things...its easier to show than explain.
If the spine is curving mid way , I lay the heel down and at the angle I think the blade should be resting on the anvil (but its not cos its kinked up!)...then one hit on the spine where the kink is will bring it back down.
Localise the heat where you want to straighten kinks helps prevent it kinking elsewhere....and correct at the first opportunity :)
I have been watching and studying several videos/dvds of well known makers recently...Bill Moran,Charlie Ochs and Ed Fowler.
Its interesting to see that there is no one way or style to do things (but I knew that). There are so many different ways to forge (Charlie Ochs starts at the tang)....there are also many different ways to grind.
A flat platen is not neccesary, ...Bill Moran in his video did all his grinding on a wheel, as does Charlie Ochs......not grinding hollow grinds, but grinding flat/convex grinds.
I tend to like the style and the finish it gives..its not so surgical as a pure flat grind, and maybe not as perfect, but its a hand finish which I like. So I experimented with this blade (and a few others)....
Where else my flat platen was used 95% of the time, ....its now used about 25% of the time or less.
I let the blade anneal over night then ground it this morning. I never finish a knife on a grinder, I always finish by hand, so thats where I am now.
The knife has not yet been hardened, but I spent a couple of hours going through the grits to a 600..all the lines run lengthways.
This 52100 seems to air harden and it takes forever to get the scratches out, but I know if I dont do it now , it will be more difficult after heat treatment...as AFTER tempering, I am expecting this blade to be in the region of a 62/63 Rc!
http://www.coutelcutlery.com/pre%20ht.jpg
Next, I will stamp my makers mark, then triple harden, cooling to room temp in between.
This blade will have a false clip/edge, but rather than file/grind that in now, I will wait till after HT,to prevent oveheating the point.
PS_Bond
03-07-04, 11:08 PM
Yeah, but Charlie starts with an angle grinder and then uses a 3" contact wheel... With everyone else saying "ya gotta have bigger wheels", this was somewhat refreshing. Do you have some DVDs I've missed?
Good explanation with the post-ricasso hump, BTW - I need to hit it harder is all.
[QUOTE=PS_Bond] Do you have some DVDs I've missed?
QUOTE]
I dont know what ones you have?..but I have a fair few :) .
Moran and Fowler are my most recent addition.
What ones do you have?
PS_Bond
03-07-04, 11:44 PM
Bearing in mind I only do DVDs -
Gene's cable damascus pair
Wayne Goddard's cable damascus (nominally, if I ever get it back Colin :p)
Johnny Stout's hollow grinding
Charlie Ochs' Forging the Ox Forge bowie
Got a couple of Bill Eps ones en route too.
MushiSushi
04-07-04, 12:16 AM
Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooowieeeeeeee :D ...... dontcha mean? ;)
MushiSushi
04-07-04, 12:18 AM
nice booooowie btw Kev ... except that sharp transition where nasty things can grow ..... i much prefer a gentle transition for ease of cleaning and maintenance
hi kev i really like the shape of that booowie it looks super rclean. So are you going to do the 3 day quench, that ed fowler suggests? I just got a 3ft by 1 inch rod of 52100 my questions are is it a nightmare to forge and grind? i'm also interested in the smiths you mention that use wheels when i was down doc prices he had a water wheel machine not slow turning but really fast turning and water just sprayed out is this similar to what they use?
http://www.jordanknives.com/grinding.htm
I think this guys ricasso lines are really nice he uses a small wheel to grind them in.
nice booooowie btw Kev ... except that sharp transition where nasty things can grow ..... i much prefer a gentle transition for ease of cleaning and maintenance
Yes...Boooooooweeeee :)
This transition its more traditional for the style I wanted.
As for cleaning and maintainence of the transition..I think your aving a laugh ;) .... providing you give the proper care and maintainence a carbon steel knife deserves ,you dont have to spend any additional care or maintainence for this transition compared to another style....unless you think to hard about it ;)
The transition is not as sharp an angle as it looks in the photo..it is slightly hollow:)
hi kev i really like the shape of that booowie it looks super rclean. So are you going to do the 3 day quench, that ed fowler suggests? I just got a 3ft by 1 inch rod of 52100 my questions are is it a nightmare to forge and grind? i'm also interested in the smiths you mention that use wheels when i was down doc prices he had a water wheel machine not slow turning but really fast turning and water just sprayed out is this similar to what they use?
Jon :)
Thats a good link you posted. .
Charlie Ochs does the same on a contact wheel and makes a superb boiwe.fighter (The Spec Ops knife).
52100...I think it forges about the same as O1 for stiffness...
It seems to air harden, as the grinding/filling was harder than say 10XX or 5160.
Definately triple normalise and anneal (over night) to refine it again.
I went with the 3 day quench as sugested by Mr Fowler.....who uses a slow quench medium..known as Texaco Type A oil...he says its an 18 second quench..I havent been able to get hold of any of that yet.
Its a new steel for me so I have lots to learn myself.
Charlie Ochs uses 52100 and does a very quick quench in water (in his video)...and I know another maker who uses 52100 all the time and triple quenches in water......so who do you listen to?.........answer....BOTH.
I think you have to experiment and find out yourself, and see what works for you.
I pretty much use warm peanut oil for everything, have tried other mediums..I always come back to it.
Before I forged this booowee...I made two test knives out of 52100.....and went through the same procedure on both that I was intending to use.....triple edge quenches, and triple temperings..I then did some cut tests and bent them 90...They needed to be flexed a couple of times (back and forth) before they eventualy snapped. I was happy with the grain, silky grey, ...so this is the method I am using at the moment.
I have some info from the 52100 supplier on heat treatment..they suggest its an oil quench..but if its a thicker section (thicker than 1/2 inch thick) they suggest a water quench may be necessary for full hardness.
These are the analysis specs from my supplier.
Carbon.... .95 to 1.10
Mang..... .25 to .45
phos.... .025 max
sulpjur.. .025 max
Silicon ... .20 to . 35
Chromium... 1.3 to 1.6
Rc at quench is around 66Rc!........
Their chart shows that tempering at 300F should achieve 65 Rc......400 F about 62/63 Rc.....500F ..about 60Rc
These are approximates....and test pieces were 1 1/2 inch discs x 13/32 inches, quenched in oil from a 1525 saltbath and tempered at different temps for an hour each.
I did two temperings at 400 F (2 hrs each).....but wanted a darker color in the steel, so went to 450 F...its a purply dark straw colour...I dont usualy go that dark on other steels...but checking with my rc files , I am still above 60 rc.
:)
MushiSushi
04-07-04, 03:40 PM
Wasn't completely having a laugh, more of a little chuckle ;) I think that sharp transitions tend to collect grime if you aren't careful about cleaning, especially in a do all work knife that might be used to prepare food in the field .. you don't want too many nooks and crannies where germs can grow. Something easy to wipe down, a sharp transtion would need more careful wiping. That's my theory and i'm sticking to it :p
Wasn't completely having a laugh, more of a little chuckle ;) I think that sharp transitions tend to collect grime if you aren't careful about cleaning, especially in a do all work knife that might be used to prepare food in the field .. you don't want too many nooks and crannies where germs can grow. Something easy to wipe down, a sharp transtion would need more careful wiping. That's my theory and i'm sticking to it :p
:) I guess as smooth as glass and as polished as a mirror would be perfect then...but sooooo boring (IMO)... lol.
RogerPinnock
06-10-04, 12:06 PM
Really interesting and informative posts coutel - thanks! And a real sweet-looking bowie as well.
Roger
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