Green River

[Basemetal]

Back in 1969 the "Observers Book of Camping" had this to say on the subject of knives for camping use: (I'm paraphrasing from memory here) Most of the functions required of a knife when camping can be met by a multi blade folding knife, but if you really want to carry a sheath knife, go for one of the thinner bladed "Green River" pattern rather than a more romantic and less useful heavy bladed pattern.

Now the comment and tone was a product of its time and probably the dearth of good knives available to readers back then, but I did buy a Green River when I saw one in a hardware store in 1976. It wasn't particularly impressive and it cost £1.50. but in twenty whatever years it has been one of my most frequently carried and used knives. In the merchant navy and offshore I've often seen them carried as deck knives until more recently plastic skandis have taken over. Its easy to sharpen, lightweight, practical, and cheap. No-one gives it a second look. I think the knife is in sort of "fixed blade Opinel" territory.

The blade is 5" long 1" broad modified spearpoint carbon steel with a swedge part way along the spine. (mine is sharpened). Brass riveted hardwood handle on full tang blade. The blade is thin -maybe 1/16" and while this may be its least attractive feature, I think it might also be the secret of its usefulness as a slicer. There is no "grind " to speak of other than the edge sharpening.

The etched name had long ago worn off the blade and only came to mind when I started to see references to "Green River" again on internet searches. I see Sheffield Knives still produce one for less than £20 (actually looks better than mine with 3 rivets rather than 2 and a nicer sheath.)

Anyhoo, the reason for the post is to ask if anyone knows the history of this pattern and the reason (if any) for the name. I am absolutely not making the case that "this is all the knife anyone really needs", but it seems like an interesting historical working pattern.

I finally figured out how to post an image so here's a link to a shop site and a piccy.
http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/shop/images/greenriver.jpg

http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/shop/Green_River_Knife3174.htm


Danny

[stonehard]

I had quite a few of those when I was a kid. I say quite a few coz in them days I was into throwing and they would work great untill you got it wrong and they would self distruct. Of course then you tied them onto a long stick and used them as a spear. I have a version of a green river that I stole from an RN ships stores when playing water sports. it has a kind of clip point and a very thin blade but what looks like rosewood scales. I use it in my garden as it takes a great edge with a file.

[stonehard]

http://www.milesfortis.com/church/akc20.htm an interesting link.
It seems that some how the cheap sheffield knife may have been the for-runner of americas green river or we just ripped off the idea

[Mike Blue]

I'd even argue that there is no such thing as an original design. Look into the Tower of London moat dig book. There's stuff in there that's pretty common today. It's one of the reasons I like scandi stuff, the design hasn't changed much since 800AD. Practical form and function wins every time.

American stuff is just late European and European is really late Roman and Roman is really late Greek and Greek is really late Egyptian and so on....fill in the blank..

[Basemetal]

Those sure look basic. If you look at the knife as a one-trick pony for slicing either meat or rope then its design is pretty good. I leave mine with a coarse edge (same as you I guess with a file) and it, um, cuts...

Boring really.

Noticed two different patterns on EvilBay (UK) as we speak.

The sheffield knives ones can come with a sheath holding a sharpening steel or marlinspike. Woop di doo.

[Mike Stewart]

Basemetal,

The Green River Works was established in 1834 on the banks of the Green River in Greenfield ,Mass. U.S.A. in 1834. It was founded by John Russell Who was a descendant of an old New England Pioneer Family.

John Russell was in charge of all manufacturing and his brother Francis was in charge of sales and distribution. Francis was in New York where he established a clearing house for direct distribution rather than doing consignment sales to commision houses.

John Russell died in 1874 and the company was reorganized and re-titled John Russell Cutlery Company.

The Company made many styles of knives (the one above was just one style) and these knives were the mainstay of outdoor cutlery that was used by hunters and settlers. The Green River knives were also the most widely traded of all knives to the American Indian tribes. They were shipped west in wooded kegs and traded for furs and goods throughout the plains. All of the famous American Mountian men carried these knives and they were commonly called Green River knives regardless of thier style.

The kegs of knives were shipped by sea, from New England to New Orleans and take up the Mississippi river. From St. Lewis the were shipped by Wagon train down the trail to New Mexico then along the Santa Fe trail to the west coast.

The largest distributor was Upper Missouri Outfit, which actually was a French Firm run by Pierre Chouteau. His Company began the westward distibution of the Green River knives in 1838. By 1846 Distribution all over the continent was perfected and the Green River knife became a staple in American life.

Green River Works was the Second Cutlery Company Founded in the U.S. and the First was Harrington Cutlery in 1818.

In 1933 the two companies merged making the largest Cutlery Company in the world.

This new Company Russell Harrington Cutlery is still the largest Cutlery Company in the World and still makes all of those original patterns. They are the largest suppliers of cutlery to the professional meat packing industry and the resturant industry.

There is great belief that the famous Nessmuk had his "Nessmuk Style Knife" recut from a green River knife. I was most likely the Russell Sheep Skinner Pattern knife that Nessmuk recut into his mainstay knife.

I hope this helps and if you have any questions ,please feel free to ask.

MIke..........

[Roger Gregory]

Mike, thanks for all that info :biggthump

I like knowing a little more knife history.

The 'bare' blades are available from Texas Knifemaker Supplies and presumably elsewhere. Cheap as chips as the orange man on the telly would say :) Basic carbon steel blades which take a good edge. I use them for cutting leather, cutting photo mounts and have been known to use them in the kitchen.

Roger

[Martyn]

Thanks Mike, great info. :biggthump

I also have to agree with Mike Blue, pretty much everything with a blade is a copy of something, with the possible exception of scandi blades (I'd love to know if there's a historical precedence for the blade style, from somewhere other than Scandinavia).

[Mike Stewart]

Martyn,

The Scandi blades are such solid-utilitaian styles that it might be fun to see what we can find out. I think that the larger blades , are really early designs. Someone said above that they date back to 800 AD. That may be too conservative. It could be much earlier. I have to see what materials I have to do some investigating.

To Roger's comment about the blades and thier avalibilty--Those are great hobby maker blades. I have made kitchen knives for friends out of them. You actually can get them in 440A also. For kitchen duty the softer S.S. blades are fine. They are easy to re-touch and if you use Micarta or a well stabalized wood it won't hurt if the wife accidently puts it in the automatic Dishwasher. From the ones I've used I would guess that they are in the 54-55 rc range.

Hint-Hint---Nudge -Nudge: If you convex them they actually hold an edge very well and slice meat very well. As soft as the are --you can Mirror finish them very easily.

Mike......

[Basemetal]

Thanks Mike, for taking the time to write all that it out. It ties up "Green River" and the Russells for me. I guess I have been wondering about that name on and off for 28 years!
I understand that "trading knives" were often shipped and traded without handles, as bare blades, since in those relatively self-sufficient days most people could fit their own handle locally and they wouldn't pay for what they could do themselves. That would explain the very simple handles most have, although it would be so easy to improve them -a good place to start customising maybe (like Opinel). The thin blades are also easy to reshape without destroying the temper.
I found another Green River pattern called "Dadley" that looks a bit more like a butcher knife/rising back skinner (top knife, fisrt photo).
There's an interesting collection of modern manufactured "trade knives" on Ragnar's Ragweed Forge site -all thin bladed like the "Green River"
http://www.ragweedforge.com/trademix.jpg
http://www.ragweedforge.com/trade-fr.jpg

See his Ragweed Forge Historical Knife Page (http://www.ragweedforge.com/HistoricalKnifeCatalog.html#gw)
:thanks:
Danny

[Basemetal]

Sorry Mike, your comments on the blades appeared while I was typing my reply ao I didn't see it before I posted. Re mirror finshing -you should see what one of Jake's strops does to these things!

[Martyn]

Hint-Hint---Nudge -Nudge: If you convex them they actually hold an edge very well and slice meat very well. As soft as the are --you can Mirror finish them very easily.

Mike......

LOL, I know you're a fan of that profile Mike. IIRC, Weren't most (or all) Blackjack knives convex too? I've an almost convex custom, from Gene Osborn, but it does have a slight edge becel on it (it's a cable damascus blade, so it'd be hard to maintain a true convex without ruining the finish). I'm keen to try out a totally convex blade though - might have to stump up for a Northstar when you throw em on the shelves.

[Mike Stewart]

Danny,

The Dadley was thought to be the most popular of the period patterns. It was named after the man who designed it for the Russells. It is a bit Bowie like in the fact that it is a clip point and the swedge grind in only on one side like most of the early bowies.

you are also correct in that most of these blades were sold/traded without handles. The most common factory handles were ebony and cocobolo. Many were done in bone , some in ivory and a bit later there were references to "rubber". this had to be one of the first crude forms of rubber or pre-plastics like bak-o-lite. The reference to Ivory handles is interesting but this could have been Bone Ivory (Smooth Bone).


Martyn,

I am truly a fan of the convex grind or the convex edge. They are easy to maintain and you don't need a fancy sharpener to do it.

I have seen many references to laying the knife down on a soft backed surface and pushing hard to get the convex. I never do it that way. Not only does it scuff up the blade--it is not the most effecient way to touch up a real convex.

A properly done convex edge has absolute terminal geometry of 13 degrees. This is not relevant to the thickness of the steel or the height of the blade. I am talking the very last part of the edge.

Now that I have said that --You should forget it. Just touch the very edge to the strop with reasonable pressure lift the spine of the knife a little (don't try to measure 13 degrees). You will feel when you have it right. The edge will bit, just so ,into the strop. Don't press too hard. If you do you will dull the knife. Over stropping will take the crispness right off any knife.


I have seen the stuff on Ragnar's site and think all that stuff is great and a real value. I love period gear and have a lot of older stuff that I still use in the field. Most folks think that all I use is my own made stuff--nothing could be farther from the truth. I enjoy all of the same things that most of you do and spend morre time on the forums learning about things other than my own knives. In fact, my latest purchase is a Trond made knife with a fancy maple handle. I have never used a concave to zero ground knife and I have always wanted to have one. This one is very cool.

Mike........
PS:

If you are scuffing the blade you are not sharpening the edge you are trying to sharpen the whole blade. That's a lot of work for no real gain.

[Martyn]

Martyn,

I am truly a fan of the convex grind or the convex edge. They are easy to maintain and you don't need a fancy sharpener to do it.

I have seen many references to laying the knife down on a soft backed surface and pushing hard to get the convex. I never do it that way. Not only does it scuff up the blade--it is not the most effecient way to touch up a real convex.

A properly done convex edge has absolute terminal geometry of 13 degrees. This is not relevant to the thickness of the steel or the height of the blade. I am talking the very last part of the edge.

Now that I have said that --You should forget it. Just touch the very edge to the strop with reasonable pressure lift the spine of the knife a little (don't try to measure 13 degrees). You will feel when you have it right. The edge will bit, just so ,into the strop. Don't press too hard. If you do you will dull the knife. Over stropping will take the crispness right off any knife.

If you are scuffing the blade you are not sharpening the edge you are trying to sharpen the whole blade. That's a lot of work for no real gain.

Thanks for the tips Mike, I know well of your experience with this grind and promise you they're well noted. On your last point, I always thought you had to maintain the geometry of the convex grind? If you focus on the edge only, without tackling the "meat" behind it, wont you eventually loose the profile and make the convex edge more and more obtuse?

[Mike Blue]

I'd be interested in any Scandi history too.

I have made several hundreds of "historical" knives over my years for the costume gatherings. I learned early on that a polished finish is good for only one thing, confusing the customer. It led to nothing but misinterpretation of the blade steel as stainless. That would have been wholly inaccurate for the time period. Although the costume Nazis didn't seem to worry about blade finish as much as buttons and thread and silly little things.

Once upon a time when I was really deep into the learning curve for buffing, I had a fellow approach me the during breakfast of the 1840's camp I was visiting. This was a campsite that Lewis and Clark had used during the outbound trip and it was by God beautiful. He and his companions were still largely in their cups, but he'd noticed that the blade was turning colors. I saw some nice greens, blues even yellows spreading over the surface. My first comment to him was "I bet you thought this was stainless. I can see where you had beef for dinner and something like an orange or grapefruit for breakfast." His companions, not that they needed much help, fell over laughing. His was an open mouthed stare. I explained that this knife would turn colors from the things he cut with it and eventually would turn a nice dark brown or black like his Granny's old kitchen knives, even like his rifle barrel. I offered to exchange it. He's since sold more of those knives for me than any other trader.

My wife regularly gives them to her friends and replaces them from my shop stock. My camping gear is full of them. They are simple and easy to care for, and you don't cry over the expense when you lose one in the field. I have yet to find a decent material that will survive washing in the automatic machine, but I'm working on it.

[Mike Stewart]

Martyn,

When you use the method I describe you are still contacting the meaty part behind the edge . You are only lifting the blade up that +/- 13 degrees. As you restore the edge you are maintaining the convex if you use a soft wood or mousepad. The trick is to only press hard enough to maintain it not curl up the strop or paper in front of the edge. If you press too hard you can be dulling the knife.

I also think that if you start with a zero grind (scandi style ) and sharpen, laying it flat , without a fixture , you will eventually end up with a convex edge.

Most folks can perform a simple experiment on two knives that are about the same size and are sharpened with a conventional bevel.

Sharpen both to a very sharp edge by sharpening the bevel in any of the fixtured sharpening systems. Then take one of them and lay the blade down a bit and break the top shoulder of the bevel. Sort of blend in the top line of the bevel. I think that universally it will be found that the one with the blended bevel will out cut the standard one.

I think that most of us have the same goal for using a knife in the field. We want the knife to be sharp and stay sharp with minimum fuss in the field. I find the convex grind or the convex edge easier to give a quick touch up on a piece of box cardboard in the field. Thats all I ever carry with me in the field and I have never had a problem re-touching the edge.

I do fully realize that these are my opinions and I don't ever expect to be the last word on anything. We all have to find what's comfortable for us.

Mike.........

[Mike Stewart]

Mike Blue,

I have never seen any of your knives. I would love to see your work. Do you have a site I can access or a few pictures you could post or e-mail me?

I have a lot of period knives and axes, and am always in the market for a few more. If you live in Minn. you are not that far from me.

I haven't been to a rendezvous in years. I would love to go with the family for a weekend. Business has kept me from those activities but I am going to try to change that for next year.

Mike.........

[mojofilter]

Mike, it is great to see someone like yourself here on the forum. I just got my first BRKT, the micro canadian and I love it, and Im getting a Rogue as well. I am a big fan of traditionaly styled knives over modern tactical styles. What I really want, however, is one of your Nessmuk's, that is absolute perfection. :biggthump

cheers

Stuarty

[Mike Stewart]

Stuarty,

It is my pleasure to be here. This is a great placew for me to get opinions from enthusiasts all over the wold and to learn more about the history and development of knives, axes and gear.

I also really enjoy interacting with folks that actually use knives and have experiances to share.

Please let me know how you like your Rogue when you receive it.

I'm glad you brought up the Nessmuk.

I really need some advice and if it is O.K. With the moderators I would like to open a thread on Nessmuks.

Mike........

[mojofilter]

Stuarty,


I'm glad you brought up the Nessmuk.

I really need some advice and if it is O.K. With the moderators I would like to open a thread on Nessmuks.

Mike........

Please do, I am sure it will be just fine with everybody, and I for one would like to find out more about them. The only ones like them ive seen before are here http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/racquette/nessmukbydale.html

cheers

stuarty

[Mike Stewart]

Stuarty.

I have two of Dales Nessmuks, like in that link , and he is going to participate in the project with us. I'm sure Old Jimbo will have a bunch to add too.

I'll check With Martyn and We will take it from there.

Mike.......

[Martyn]

Stuarty.

I have two of Dales Nessmuks, like in that link , and he is going to participate in the project with us. I'm sure Old Jimbo will have a bunch to add too.

I'll check With Martyn and We will take it from there.

Mike.......

Fine Mike, go for it. Fascinating stuff for sure. Just browsing through Nessmuks "Woodcraft and Camping", just after the section where he describes having his double bit axe made for an exorbitant fee, I came accross an interesting paragraph on page 9...

"A word as to knife or knives. These are of prime necessity, and should be of the best, both as to shape and temper. The "bowies" and "hunting knives" usually kept on sale, are thick, clumsy affairs, with a sort of ridge along the middle of the blade, murderous-looking, but of little use; rather fitted to adorn a dime novel or the belt of "Billy the Kid," than the outfit of a hunter.
George W Sears ("Nessmuk")

Great stuff and a great read.

[Martyn]

Martyn,

When you use the method I describe you are still contacting the meaty part behind the edge . You are only lifting the blade up that +/- 13 degrees. As you restore the edge you are maintaining the convex if you use a soft wood or mousepad. The trick is to only press hard enough to maintain it not curl up the strop or paper in front of the edge. If you press too hard you can be dulling the knife.



Gotcha. :biggthump

[Mike Blue]

Thanks Mike Stewart. This could get scary. My middle name is Stuart. I'm not going to any rendezvous until after July. I've got to get ready for the Guild show. I am planning a hammerin/seminar for the Fall, maybe late September early October, I'll let everyone know. My email's attached to this forum somewhere. I am working on a website, but can't seem to get it finished. Somewhere in the archives here are a few pictures. Some are posted on Don Fogg's forum too.

[The General]

Mike, I sharpen a convex edge by using a wide leather belt with Flitz on it. I slack belt the edge with care. I learned this after buying a Chris Reeve Sebenza and deciding that the convex edge bevel was the best I had used. I own the Highland Special and it came as quite a surprise to see a full convex blade. As its A2 steel though, I have yet to try my usual process as it is a very hard tool steel and it does not require a touch up yet... then again BG-42 is not soft either! :p

I would love to see more about the Nessmuk series of knives, like some here, I am beginning to get a taste of the more traditional patterns of knives.

At first (many moons ago) I did not really like the style of knives like the traditional Scandi patterns and wow was I wrong! I saw smaller 4" fixed blades as a waste of money when large blades could be had for little more! Was I wrong! I saw old style knives as daft and unappealing when I could have a super high grade steel laser cut in black ninja mall death glider knife for a good price... :rolleyes:

After a few years of serious collecting, a taste of making, a lot of listening and lots more practical use. I have started to see things before my eyes that are often in disguise. One thing keeps comming back to me though, high carbon tool steel seems to work great as a cutting material, old school does not have to mean no longer valid. Style is more than the latest thing and often is fould most appropiatly in the classic lines and styles. To me, I now find myself looking for historical patterns and materials like wood and brass. I want to own and use a knife that may look almost identical to something used 200+ years ago, but be happy in the realisation that the blade has had an expert cryo quench the blade and drawn the optimon performance from the steel. The understanding of steel is far greater today allowing for greater performance. But that does not have to mean black tactical is king.

Don't mention this to anyone, but the forge finished look and neo tribal is starting to greatly appeal to me... Whats going on in my head? :D :biggthump

[mojofilter]

I would love to see more about the Nessmuk series of knives, like some here, I am beginning to get a taste of the more traditional patterns of knives.

At first (many moons ago) I did not really like the style of knives like the traditional Scandi patterns and wow was I wrong! I saw smaller 4" fixed blades as a waste of money when large blades could be had for little more! Was I wrong! I saw old style knives as daft and unappealing when I could have a super high grade steel laser cut in black ninja mall death glider knife for a good price... :rolleyes:

After a few years of serious collecting, a taste of making, a lot of listening and lots more practical use. I have started to see things before my eyes that are often in disguise. One thing keeps comming back to me though, high carbon tool steel seems to work great as a cutting material, old school does not have to mean no longer valid. Style is more than the latest thing and often is fould most appropiatly in the classic lines and styles. To me, I now find myself looking for historical patterns and materials like wood and brass. I want to own and use a knife that may look almost identical to something used 200+ years ago, but be happy in the realisation that the blade has had an expert cryo quench the blade and drawn the optimon performance from the steel. The understanding of steel is far greater today allowing for greater performance. But that does not have to mean black tactical is king.

Don't mention this to anyone, but the forge finished look and neo tribal is starting to greatly appeal to me... Whats going on in my head? :D :biggthump

If this is really the case, I would be happy to swap a piece of sharpened flint for your sebenza :D