Mosaic pins V's Loveless bolts

[rapidboy]

I have a full tang blade on order from Maihkel Eklund and am trying to decide what sort of look i want for the finished knife.
I'd like to use coloured bone but making that sound like a project in itself so will probably use wood.
I'd like to use mosaic pins simply because i've never used them before but am a little concerned about strength.
Is epoxy strong enough to hold the scales without bolts?
The knife will be a user.
Also i've read on here about colouring the epoxy.
What can it be coloured with?

Cheers
RB

[ZDP-189]

In my limited experience, mosaic pins have been fine. More than fine; rock solid.

I would use corby/ loveless bolts if I for some reason I doubted the epoxy bond (e.g. there was an aluminium-epoxy bond)

[Chux]

I should think the epoxy would be more than capable in most circumstances

[keith_beef]

I have a full tang blade on order from Maihkel Eklund and am trying to decide what sort of look i want for the finished knife.
I'd like to use coloured bone but making that sound like a project in itself so will probably use wood.
I'd like to use mosaic pins simply because i've never used them before but am a little concerned about strength.
Is epoxy strong enough to hold the scales without bolts?
The knife will be a user.
Also i've read on here about colouring the epoxy.
What can it be coloured with?

Cheers
RB

I've been using some "Ultra-Concentrated Universal colorant" made by S.A. Richard, to colour Araldite, both the slow-setting and rapide. Good results with blue, black and red (I haven't tried the other colours). Just a drop is enough to colour about 10 ml of resin/hardener mix.

Mushi and Colin reckon you can use black toner from a laser printer or photocopier for a black pigment.

The address of the manufacturer is:
S.A. Richard,
rue Lavoisier,
59454 Lomme cedex
France.

If you can't find similar stuff in the UK, I could post some over. I'll try to find the prices sometime next week.


KKK.

[rapidboy]

Probably black is all i need so i will try the toner.
Cheers guys
RB

[clcuckow]

I have used humbrol model paint and plasti-kote fast dry enamel spay paint, it seems to work OK but slows the setting time with aradite, but strangely not with black plasti-kote and JB weld.

[Kevin]

I have just used pins and epoxy but I sometimes prefer a mechanical fit as well as relying on epoxy.



I have a kitchen knife I made 2 years ago and the handle is just secured on with pins and epoxy..this has been used everyday and..has been through the dishwasher so many times I have lost count (not recommended!)..the handle is still secure in place.

If just using pins (mosaic or otherwise), its probably a good idea to file a groove midway in the pin so that when the epoxy sets it gives the pins something extra to grip on to.

[rapidboy]

Im using a WS woodlore at the moment and have an Alan Wood - Bushcrafter on order (due September) and both use the Loveless bolts.
I just thought for heavy work they would be better but as i said i'd like to try using the mosaic pins.
Is araldite effected by heat or cold (UK climate) or by water?
RB

[Martyn]

Im using a WS woodlore at the moment and have an Alan Wood - Bushcrafter on order (due September) and both use the Loveless bolts.
I just thought for heavy work they would be better but as i said i'd like to try using the mosaic pins.
Is araldite effected by heat or cold (UK climate) or by water?
RB


Loveless bolts or corby fasterners (I prefver corby's, they're neater) are mechanically stronger. They provide a mechanical clamp to hold the scales in place as well as the epoxy. So many who like the over-engineered, aggricultural tool concept, opt for them - they're solid and sound and that's fine. But pins are fine too. I've had no problems with knives just using pins & epoxy. many makers use pins and I've never heard of scales comming loose as a result, regardless of the abuse given to the knife. I think it's the old "full tang v stick tang" argument all over again. One is mechanically stronger than the other, and many make the mistake of thinking that this automatically makes the stronger construction superior in some way. But that shouldn't worry you, just go for the option you like best.

Think of it this way, you could argue that an axe with a fully integrated, single piece, steel handle is stronger than an axe with a wooden handle - and that would be absolutely true. But the stronger, steel handled axe, isn't necessarily better - that's also true.

[ZDP-189]

Probably black is all i need so i will try the toner.
Cheers guys
RB

I can report success making mosaic pins with electronic potting compound. If you want, i'll test tensile strength.

[Tvividr]

Epoxy and pins should be more than strong enough. Only use mosaic pins and Corby rivets / bolts, and haven't tried the Loveless bolts yet - although I have some in my drawer somewhere. I agree with Martyn that the Corby rivets / bolts are neater than the Loveless ones

[narsil]

In most cases a well executed epoxy joint will be stronger than the scales themselves and is more than adequate. Bear in mind that the chasis of the Lotus Elise is bonded together with epoxy . The addition of bolts may or may not make it mechanically stronger depending on the materials, but it is certainly good insurance and probably worthwhile if you are inclined to do it.

I would avoid using bolts alone since this might allow water to get between the tang and the scales as the wood naturally expands and contracts, this is quite bad news especially with a carbon steel blade.

Use the best quality epoxy you can get hold of since the different brands and grades vary in performance quite a lot. I have had problems with the cheap generic stuff. I would also allow more curing time than the manufacturers instructions. I usually leave scales clamped for 48 hours after bonding before I touch them at all.

Finally cured epoxy will irreversibly soften if it gets hotter than about 60degC, not usually a problem in use but worth bearing in mind if you are going to do any drilling, grinding etc on the knife after gluing. Equally, careful warming is a good way to disassemble epoxy joints.

[narsil]

BTW: anyone know any good UK sources of loveless/corby bolts in the UK? I''ve only found american supplies so far.

[Roger Gregory]

I have some cutlery from around 1850 which has bone and horn scales held on with cutlers resin and pins or rivets.

Roger

[APG1961]

I make my own Loveless bolts, if anyone wants any making just let me know the sizes and I will make a set. I use brass and stainless steel threaded rod.

Here's a quick shot of an early knife I made with Loveless bolts on Olive wood scales.

Please excuse to poor photo, I just snapped a quck shot on my desktop under a table light!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/spireknife/loveless.jpg

[rapidboy]

Thanks guy's ,i will try the mosaic pins.
Just need to get some green bone and im ready.
RB

[Dave Budd]

The only time that I have had a pinned/epoxied handle fail me was when I desided to see how well my machete worked as a throwing knife! oops. The scales moved away from the tang a little but it didn't fall apart. I strongly suggest not throwing pinned knives now. ;-)

[Gator68]

Epoxy doesn't have good shear strength. The pins keep the scales from shearing off, the epoxy holds the scales down against the tang.

[rapidboy]

My concern was really about "battoning" a knife with just epoxy and mosaic pin's.
How do hidden tang knives with just epoxy stand up to heavy bushcraft type use?

RB

[ODS]

lets just say recent events show that when batoning a BRK&T Fieldsman II knife through a solid 2.5 inch diameter limb..the blade snapped before the G-10 Handle broke free from the handle..... though using a Fieldsman II in this manner is not recommended by myself or anyone else that knows the difference between a hunting knife and a bushcraft knife.

[Shinken]

I made a cheap full tang using a frosts blade, and i thought i would try and test it! Knife in vice........... out come hammer! I start wacking (technical term) a single scale with hammer......... lots of dents in wood but scale still on. Good enough for me. Scales pinned and epoxied not peened.

So i am not scared to use it for sure!

[Bogflogger]

Epoxy properly applied to degreased and properly prepared surfaces is capable of handling 8g combat turns in fighter aircraft. It is more likely that the handle scales material will fail before an epoxy joint.

[narsil]

On occasion I have had to dismantle knives with plain pins epoxied in, tho only way to get them apart if is boil the whole thing for half an hour to melt the epoxy and even then I had to hammer the pins out with a punch.

I've done a bit of crude testing on wood to steel epoxy joins as well with bits of scrap, its just about possible to hammer the join apart if you put it in a vice but its the wood that splits rather than the adhesive.

I have total confidence in well prepared epoxy joins. In fact I'd far rather rely on just epoxy than just corby rivets.

[Dave Budd]

I have on occasions had to remove my handles (often if i cocked up something in the shaping and have to start over) and I find the only way to go is to carve off most of the wood with a chisel, hacksaw off (and then puch out) the pins and then take the knife to the grinder and grind the wood remnants and glue off.

I like epoxy very much!

[Dwane Oliver]

I put damascus bolsters on with hidden pins and epoxy , pins are about 1/8" shorter than the width of the bolsters and blade thickness. I use a machine screw rather than a pin. and make the inside of the " pocket" in the bolster bigger than the hole. I tested this method with a chisel and 2 pound hammer , with the blade in the vice. It took 6 heavy blows to diss-lodge the bolster from the blade. I'm sold on epoxy.