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OWDTOM
23-11-10, 09:09 PM
Whilst not a folder, this very large Bowie might be of interest to Sheffield fans.

I took the shot on my mobile when I called in to pick up Stan Shaw at Kelham yesterday lunchtime.

Measuring twenty inches overall the knife was made by Freddie James around 1980 and was given by Fred to the late father of one of Stan's current customers - as a present!

The carbon is now somewhat grotty and the owner has asked for it to be cleaned up if possible without spoiling the acid etching done by Doris Walsh.

The five-inch ivory tusk/whittle-tang handle has silver mounts, but unfortunately Fred used brass, not nickel, for a rather flamboyant cross-guard, which lets it down rather badly.
T. http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/StanFJBowie.jpg

wellington03
23-11-10, 09:55 PM
The Lorberg knife is also great Mick, you do take some good photos. From experience, i know it can be frustrating to show a knife to it's full glory via a camera. The master blade looks like it has a stunning polish.



Really pleased you think the Lorberg whittler decent Andy, it is a good one, I did struggle taking its picture as the bright pearl messed up the exposure.


Whilst not a folder, this very large Bowie might be of interest to Sheffield fans.

Measuring twenty inches overall the knife was made by Freddie James around 1980 and was given by Fred to the late father of one of Stan's current customers - as a present!

The five-inch ivory tusk/whittle-tang handle has silver mounts, but unfortunately Fred used brass, not nickel, for a rather flamboyant cross-guard, which lets it down rather badly.
T.

That's a great picture of Stan at his bench holding the F James Bowie Tom.

I do like the look of that blade, long and heavy, it appears nicely ground, not so sure about the guard and handle.

Thanks for showing..

Mick

RodgersLad
23-11-10, 11:13 PM
What a special picture. Thanks for posting it owdtom. The blade is fantastic, i also agree though that the guard and handle look a little odd and mismatched. The handle looks to small for a knife of that size and the guard looks quite ugly. A shame really. Even a plain, undecorated nickel one would have looked better.

Andy

OWDTOM
24-11-10, 04:46 PM
What a special picture. The handle looks to small for a knife of that size and the guard looks quite ugly. A shame really. Even a plain, undecorated nickel one would have looked better.

Andy

The point of the ivory tusk with its cap is obviously obscured by Stan's hand, making the handle appear to be disproportionally short, but it isn't; it measures a good five inches from guard to pommel end - the blade being just short of fifteen inches.

When it has been cleaned I'll take a close-up of the entire knife and try to show the unusual legends depicted in the acid etching. Knowing Fred, these would have been from one of four hundred or so 19th century Wostenholm etching plates which he had at that time.
T.

OWDTOM
24-11-10, 09:55 PM
Another couple, picked up on my travels recently, which might be of interest.

A Thomas Turner, stag-scaled, capped pruner with a snap like an alligator and a pearl scaled, shadow three piece by Taylor Eye Witness in virtually mint condition - with just the odd spot of spidering to the carbon backsprings.

The pruner measures four and a half inches closed and the TEW three and a half inches closed.
T.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img012.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img013.jpg

Iron Hoarder
24-11-10, 10:40 PM
Nice! I love the pruners and the older high quality Eye Witness knives.

mito0
25-11-10, 12:27 AM
wow, that's the finest taylor's i think i've ever seen (russell's work excepted, of course).
most of the older eye witness knives i've seen over the years seemed fairly rough around the edges, but that one looks very nice indeed.

OWDTOM
25-11-10, 12:49 AM
wow, that's the finest taylor's i think i've ever seen (russell's work excepted, of course).
most of the older eye witness knives i've seen over the years seemed fairly rough around the edges, but that one looks very nice indeed.


At first glance I thought it must be stainless in view of the high polish, but it's carbon and obviously carries some age.
T.

wellington03
25-11-10, 01:26 AM
Hi Tom,

Regards the James Bowie, I for one would love to see some close up pics, particularly a good shot showing the blade face/etch, if possible.

A nice large pruner and neat T.E.W penknife, great to see.


Here's a scan of a C1930 T.E.W sales leaflet, the knife top/centre looks similar to Tom's
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/c988a9e3.jpg

Mick

OWDTOM
25-11-10, 02:06 PM
Here's a scan of a C1930 T.E.W sales leaflet, the knife top/centre looks similar to Tom's
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/c988a9e3.jpg

Mick

Practically identical as you say Mick and differing only in size I should think.

Whereas the one I have measures three and a half inches, the one in the catalogue is a little chunkier in profile and probably measures just under three: same basic pattern nonetheless.

Also the relative length of pen to pocket blade is different. Whilst the master in the catalogue picture is barely longer, if at all, than the pen, it is almost double in the other knife.

T.

wellington03
25-11-10, 04:50 PM
Practically identical as you say Mick and differing only in size I should think.

Whereas the one I have measures three and a half inches, the one in the catalogue is a little chunkier in profile and probably measures just under three: same basic pattern nonetheless.

Also the relative length of pen to pocket blade is different. Whilst the master in the catalogue picture is barely longer, if at all, than the pen, it is almost double in the other knife.

T.

You are right Tom, re-comparing your knife to the one pictured in the leaflet, the differences are obvious.


wow, that's the finest taylor's i think i've ever seen (russell's work excepted, of course).
most of the older eye witness knives i've seen over the years seemed fairly rough around the edges, but that one looks very nice indeed.

The knives made by Needam, Veall & Tyzack (T.E.W), in the later Victorian era were as good as any, C1900 they were capable of producing over two and half thousand different patterns to order, knives of every conceivable description, roughly one third of the patterns were single/twin bladed jack/pocket knives, a good example of the sort of thing they could produce is the very fine pearl "Wharncliffe Knife" (whittler) featured by Tom earlier in this thread.

I've a small (empty)T.E.W counter display case somewhere, if I can find it I'll post a pic.

Mick

wellington03
28-11-10, 04:30 PM
Here's a pic of the T.E.W table top display box mentioned in my previous post, it measures about 14" long, the lockable glass top slopes forewords. The knives would have sat in the 10 5" compartments.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/DSC03888.jpg


Here are a two knives I've found out more about since reading "Tweedale's Directory Of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers".

This first knife was featured in the first post of this thread a couple of years ago, a 3 3/4" lockback whittler in fine condition, all three blades are marked INNOCENT & SON.

According to TDCM, James Innocent was a spring knife cutler working in Trafalgar St before moving to Charles St, the business re-styled "& son in 1854. James died in 1861, the son Joseph died in 1862. The company then ceased trading.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/006-2-1-2.jpg

This fine old two bladed dirk measures 5 1/2" closed, marked J WINTER, 24 FURNISS HILL, SHEFFIELD. Pressed nickel silver fittings, either lead or spelter filled, a part of one bolster is missing. Ivory handle coverings. The dirk's blades have been re-pinned at some time, the main blade locks open, the pen blade opens half open and full.

According to TDCM, James Winter was working as a spring knife cutler by 1849, he died in 1854 aged 39, his wife and son then continued trading for a time form a Garden St address. They ceased trading around 1861-2.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/024-8-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/022-6-2.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/023-8-2.jpg

Mick

RodgersLad
04-12-10, 12:49 AM
Hi Mick,

that case is a lovely collectable with lots of character, shame it's not full of knives right? : )

That's brilliant that you have found some new info on the innocent knife. I have to say, that's one of the nicest looking whittlers i have ever seen, especially with the lockback feature and the scales are a great colour. Don't think i saw it when posted before. Great condition for it's age and it looks like a very difficult pattern to manufacture. Yet again, another little gem of a knife.

Andy

mito0
04-12-10, 01:30 AM
amazing that tweedale's new book allowed you to date that knife to within 8 years!
brilliant!

amayts
13-12-10, 04:50 PM
just came across folder marked ABRAM Brooksbank Sheffield on other side canon logo and DEFIANCE- any info thanks

dkonopinski
13-12-10, 04:59 PM
You're in the right thread. Try the search function and you should get the info you seek.

Welcome to BB.

David

dkonopinski
17-12-10, 01:48 PM
Here's a lovely little smoker's knife by Brookes & Crookes which unfortunately doesn't belong to me. It has not been looked after and I've spent a fair bit of time getting into the condition it is now.

It has one broken tool which I'm told was something like a nail-file with a deep groove along it's length. The only other thing it suffers from is that for years the 2 knife blades have been passing on the wrong side when closed. The springing is weak, but working now all the gunge has been cleared out and a little oil applied.

The scales appear to be scored horn or wood but I'm not sure about that. Liners are brass with milled edges, much of which has been worn away, but it's still clearly visible here & there, especially on the central liner.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00827.jpg

The main knife blade is tang stamped with Brookes & Crookes plus the bell trade mark.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00830.jpg

Other features are the button (?) hook, the cigar fork, the long thin prod common to all smokers knives and that clever little arrangement for the tamper which slides from the side to the end of the handle for use.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00829.jpg

I think this tool which slides out from between scale & liner is a match striker, but again I'm not sure.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00828.jpg

So the inevitable questions -

1. What material are the scales?
2. Is it a button hook?
3. What might the broken tool actually have been?
4. Any idea on date.

Any & all help will be gratefully accepted.

David

Captain
17-12-10, 02:12 PM
Lovely old looking smoker
my guess is that it is a button hook.
and that would be a striker
I do like the tamper nice bit of enginering
Thats all the help I can be
David

mito0
17-12-10, 05:06 PM
neat smoker's knife, david.
the broken tool would likely be a nail file based on the shape of the slot into which it would've rested.
yep, that's a button hook.
boots, gloves and other bits of clothing of the era utilized tiny buttons which were difficult to fasten with bare fingers.
you'd slip that hook through the button hole, hook the button, and pull it back through the hole.
the scales might be buffalo horn.
i've read that horn scales were often heated and impressed with different textures, although i've not actually seen very many examples.
it might be worth doing a heated pin test in an inconspicuous place.
if it smells like burnt hair, they're probably horn.
rubber might be another option. (?)
this might be the only knife i've ever seen that includes a bona fide match striker.
i think most file-like tools are, in fact, nail files, but this one looks more like a match striker to me.
maybe mick or owdtom will chime in to provide more definitive answers than mine.
thanks for sharing!

Iron Hoarder
17-12-10, 06:11 PM
I've come across several knives with that scale material and it isn't horn. I can't figure out what it is. It seems to almost be pressed vulcanized fiber or paper. It's weird stuff. I hope somebody has a name for it.

dkonopinski
17-12-10, 07:14 PM
I've come across several knives with that scale material and it isn't horn. I can't figure out what it is. It seems to almost be pressed vulcanized fiber or paper. It's weird stuff. I hope somebody has a name for it.

Interesting thought IH, but I've an old British Army Knife by Frank Mills & Co Ltd which def has pressed paper scales. It's not like that. I've had another look and the bit that's scooped out for the tamper looks like wood to me.

Anyway, it is now back with the owner.

David

wellington03
17-12-10, 08:10 PM
A nice old smoker's knife there David, pity its manicure/nail file has snapped off. I notice the knife has the extending match striker similar to the one on the Nowill smokers knife Tom showed recently, which is interesting. Those chequered scales could be ebony.

Mick

Iron Hoarder
17-12-10, 08:34 PM
I've got one of the pressed paper military ones too. I just thought this stuff might be a variation with rubber in it too. I might just sacrifice the worst of the lot for some experimentation and testing.

dkonopinski
18-12-10, 01:42 AM
A nice old smoker's knife there David, pity its manicure/nail file has snapped off. I notice the knife has the extending match striker similar to the one on the Nowill smokers knife Tom showed recently, which is interesting. Those chequered scales could be ebony.

Mick

I think you're right about the scales, Mick. The scooped out section as I ,mentioned, def looks like wood. Pity I had to return it to the owner who has no appreciation at all of the qualities of a good pocket knife.

IH - The pressed paper is weird isn't it? Someone must have thought it was a good idea at the time. if you do experiment please keep us posted on what you find out. The Zorros, for two, will be interested.

David

zorro
18-12-10, 11:00 AM
The Zorros, for two, will be interested.

David

Oh yes. :)

Iron Hoarder
26-12-10, 02:21 PM
Did Rodgers ever make a knife like this.... maybe towards the end? It has nice snap and rosewood scales. It could be cobbled together by someone but, if so, not a bad job. What do you guys think.

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q265/smiling-knife/Rodger1-1.jpg

I was reviewing the thread and I have found one like this too. I thought it was a rescale but maybe not.

Dartmoor Annie
30-12-10, 01:54 PM
I've seen a few CUTLERS TO HER MAJESTY by them but not many HIS (the early Edward 7th years maybe?)

Andy

Ah, but don't assume Her Maj had to be the reigning monarch. For instance on Harrison Brothers, HER Majesty was Queen Alexandra, she had her own royal warrants just like Phil and Charlie have their own warrants now.

Dartmoor Annie
30-12-10, 03:33 PM
Just wondering if anyone can advise the best way (apart from this website!) to sell a collectable knife?

eBay's one-size-fits-all policy doesn't seem to recognise that glue-sniffing ASBO types who have access to a supermarket or camping shop are hardly likely to be buying a solid silver antique.

sebago
30-12-10, 04:22 PM
Dartmoor Annie,

AUCTION?

Jim Taylor.

Dartmoor Annie
30-12-10, 04:28 PM
The problem is with an auction that if you live in the back of beyond with a small population, as I do, the catchment area of the local auction house is not great. That's why I wanted to do it on eBay. Big audience.

RodgersLad
31-12-10, 05:59 PM
The problem is with an auction that if you live in the back of beyond with a small population, as I do, the catchment area of the local auction house is not great. That's why I wanted to do it on eBay. Big audience.

If you use an auction house which allows internet bidding, you will still get a big audience.

OWDTOM
31-12-10, 09:08 PM
A couple of totally mint Ibberson knives for members to look at - acquired today. The (carbon) stockman is liner-marked with Stan Shaw's initials and dated 1980; this was just prior to his leaving and starting out on his own.

The seller also had an identical stockman in pearl which was not for sale. This had a year earlier 1979 date mark and the initials G.H. which is something of an enigma because neither Stan nor I know to whom these initials belong.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img029.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img030.jpg

Iron Hoarder
31-12-10, 09:12 PM
Nice! Some day I'll find something of Stan's.

wellington03
31-12-10, 10:02 PM
A couple of excellent Ibberson knives there Tom, that stockman's is the first I've seen made with stag scales.



Here's a small selection of pearl Ibbersons, all are marked with Stan Shaw's (SS) liner mark.

4025.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00647.jpg

Sowbelly stockman.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00648.jpg

3164, decorated/workbacked.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00658.jpg

2121.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00701.jpg

Two blades plus scissors.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00706.jpg

4470.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00630.jpg

3089, workbacked.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/d683d852-1.jpghttp://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/5c5cf2cd-1.jpg


Mick

RodgersLad
01-01-11, 02:05 PM
Some lovely work by Stan posted there by you both. The sowbelly by far my favourite.

Andy

RodgersLad
01-01-11, 03:02 PM
Just wanted to quickly show this. Probably one the oldest Rodgers knives i will find. It has the mark of ROD above GERS which can be found on early pieces including the quadrangular knives. There is no star and cross mark and it is a whittler pattern. It dates to around 1800, possibly 1810. The handles look to be buffalo horn.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9096/img7350e.jpg

Andy

Dartmoor Annie
01-01-11, 05:28 PM
If you use an auction house which allows internet bidding, you will still get a big audience.

And would I get told off if I tell everybody here which auction house catalogue to look for? :-)

grace horne
01-01-11, 06:22 PM
And would I get told off if I tell everybody here which auction house catalogue to look for? :-)

I've sent you a pm with some information and site rules...any problems, let me know.

wellington03
01-01-11, 11:40 PM
That's a great looking whittler Andy, those Rodgers marks do look very early, as does the rest of the knife.

Thanks for showing…Mick

Iron Hoarder
01-01-11, 11:51 PM
There was a knife and pencil combo one of those in pearl on E-bay UK this week. I guess I should have waded in but I didn't know what it was worth.

Iron Hoarder
16-01-11, 12:14 AM
Does anyone have a spare copy of the Register of Trademarks of the Cutlers' Company of Sheffield (or any other duplicate publications that may be of help for my collecting) that they are willing to part with. PM me please. I'm having trouble finding books like this and I know there are online resources but I really do love good solid books for my research and collection. Thanks.

wellington03
16-01-11, 01:36 PM
Hi Iron Horder,

As you may know the Register Of Trade Marks Of The Cutlers Company Of Sheffield was published in 1919 and a revised version in 1953. The earlier book is large and very comprehensive, over 1800 trade marks are illustrated, very scarce, the 1953 version less so, but still hard to find.

Sheffield Central Library have copies of both books, they allow the 1919 version to be photographed.

Mick

Iron Hoarder
18-01-11, 04:34 PM
Does this one qualify as a grain of rice knife or is it too big? No makers mark and the scales appear to an ivory substitute although it is hard to tell. It's sitting on a 20p.

http://i56.tinypic.com/315fvap.jpg

Iron Hoarder
18-01-11, 04:49 PM
Top Drawer Luck!

aside from one small bit of pearl missing from the bottom edge of a scale this knife is an immaculate Ibberson made from stainless (including the spring) with file worked spring and blade backs as well as milled liners and the Firth Stainless etch is all there too. One of the best I've found so far. Even came with a little pouch which I suspect is original.

http://i56.tinypic.com/spd7qf.jpg

http://i51.tinypic.com/2v310dw.jpg

OWDTOM
18-01-11, 05:52 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1611528]Top Drawer Luck!



Have a look inside the liners near the nail notches where you might see two letters and two numerals.
T

OWDTOM
18-01-11, 05:54 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1611524]Does this one qualify as a grain of rice knife or is it too big? No makers mark and the scales appear to an ivory substitute although it is hard to tell. It's sitting on a 20p.




40% too long.
T

Iron Hoarder
18-01-11, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1611528]Top Drawer Luck!



Have a look inside the liners near the nail notches where you might see two letters and two numerals.
T

No letters or numerals. Would the blades still be etched Firth if it had been made in the era that they were stamping their clock numbers and the year in the liners? I was under the impression that they quit calling it Firth stainless fairly soon after stainless was invented.The liners also appear to be nickel silver not brass.

OWDTOM
18-01-11, 09:23 PM
[QUOTE=OWDTOM;1611579]

No letters or numerals. Would the blades still be etched Firth if it had been made in the era that they were stamping their clock numbers and the year in the liners? I was under the impression that they quit calling it Firth stainless fairly soon after stainless was invented.The liners also appear to be nickel silver not brass.



Stamping liners with clock numbers was often a hit and miss affair by 'pocket knife' cutlers, sometimes called 'one-end' men, who worked in what was called the 'Long-shop' at Ibbersons.

'Penknife' or high-end men such as Stan Shaw and the Osborne brothers marked liners with their intials alongside the year, but not on all-metal knives - although no doubt there were exceptions.

The primary reason for the practice was to enable the warehouse girls who cleaned packed and despatched knives, to return sub-standard knives to the cutler responsible - this applied equally to the high-end men as well as the Longshop men.


I could be wrong but seem to remember MIck (Wellington) posting something of reference to Firth-marked blades in Ibberson knives.

There are anomalies of course, but the only initials I've ever come across are those of Stan and the Osborne's plus J.R. and G.H.

J.R. was a man called John Robinson who seems to have started copying some of the patterns made by Stan after he (Stan) had left the company.

G.H. is a total mystery: he marked the liners of a pearl-scaled stockman - which I've examined - G.H.'79 - I've discussed this with Stan and he is equally baffled.
T

Steven Cocker
18-01-11, 10:26 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1611601]



Stamping liners with clock numbers was often a hit and miss affair by 'pocket knife' cutlers, sometimes called 'one-end' men, who worked in what was called the 'Long-shop' at Ibbersons.

'Penknife' or high-end men such as Stan Shaw and the Osborne brothers marked liners with their intials alongside the year, but not on all-metal knives - although no doubt there were exceptions.

The primary reason for the practice was to enable the warehouse girls who cleaned packed and despatched knives, to return sub-standard knives to the cutler responsible - this applied equally to the high-end men as well as the Longshop men.


I could be wrong but seem to remember MIck (Wellington) posting something of reference to Firth-marked blades in Ibberson knives.

There are anomalies of course, but the only initials I've ever come across are those of Stan and the Osborne's plus J.R. and G.H.

J.R. was a man called John Robinson who seems to have started copying some of the patterns made by Stan after he (Stan) had left the company.

G.H. is a total mystery: he marked the liners of a pearl-scaled stockman - which I've examined - G.H.'79 - I've discussed this with Stan and he is equally baffled.
T

I will ask at work if anyone know's who the initials G.H belong to at Ibbersons see if they could shed some light on the mystery, also there was another man who worked at Ibbersons called Stan Silverman or Silverwood (cant remember at the minute) who also made some work back knives and marked his initials in the knives he made.

mito0
19-01-11, 03:23 AM
... there was another man who worked at Ibbersons called Stan Silverman or Silverwood (cant remember at the minute) who also made some work back knives and marked his initials in the knives he made.

that's news to me.
if correct, that opens up the possibility that many knives attributed to stan shaw could actually be the work of stan silverman/silverwood.
how did fact this manage to go unnoticed all these years?

mito0
19-01-11, 03:33 AM
There are anomalies of course, but the only initials I've ever come across are those of Stan and the Osborne's plus J.R. and G.H.

J.R. was a man called John Robinson who seems to have started copying some of the patterns made by Stan after he (Stan) had left the company.

G.H. is a total mystery: he marked the liners of a pearl-scaled stockman - which I've examined - G.H.'79 - I've discussed this with Stan and he is equally baffled.
T

i've got an ibberson ivory-hafted fruit knife with "21-25" stamped inside and "firth stainless" stamped on the blade.
i guess this would have been one of the "long-shop men?"

OWDTOM
19-01-11, 02:12 PM
that's news to me.
if correct, that opens up the possibility that many knives attributed to stan shaw could actually be the work of stan silverman/silverwood.
how did fact this manage to go unnoticed all these years?




That would depend on whether they bore a date prior to, or after, Stan started out on his own. I've just had a word with Stan's wife Rosmary who confirms that there was a (Stan?) Silverwood working in the longshop at Ibbersons and she's going to ring me later tonight with relevant dates.
T

Steven Cocker
19-01-11, 06:04 PM
That would depend on whether they bore a date prior to, or after, Stan started out on his own. I've just had a word with Stan's wife Rosmary who confirms that there was a (Stan?) Silverwood working in the longshop at Ibbersons and she's going to ring me later tonight with relevant dates.
T

I asked at work yes it was Stan Silverwood he came from Wostenholms to Ibbersons my friend thinks.
The G H mystery was George Hale Stan knew him he was works manager and it would be around 1979 George Hale made a few workback knives with John Robinson and a few others when Stan had left to go to Clarkes.

mito0
19-01-11, 07:04 PM
I asked at work yes it was Stan Silverwood he came from Wostenholms to Ibbersons my friend thinks.
The G H mystery was George Hale Stan knew him he was works manager and it would be around 1979 George Hale made a few workback knives with John Robinson and a few others when Stan had left to go to Clarkes.

excellent information, steven.
thank you.

OWDTOM
19-01-11, 10:56 PM
excellent information, steven.
thank you.


Information yes, but not all it might seem at first glance.

.................................................. ..............................................



This topic would be nigh imossible to unravel with any certainty, or indeed clarity, because of the multiple overlapping of affairs in the late seventies/early eighties, between Eggintons, Ibbersons, Wostenholms, Clarke's et-al. Who did what and when etc!



However.....from the horse's mouth.....and strictly relating to 'CUTLERS' own marks on liners in Ibberson knives....

It is right to say that George Hale was not a QUALIFIED cutler: he was a former warehouseman who was promoted to manager at Ibbersons just before or around the time that Stan went back to work at Clarke's for the last time.

Hale didn't have a mark of his own, nor would he need one; nor again could he make high-end knives on which to use it.. Maybe he could have knocked together a very basic common pocket knife although we're unlikely to find out; but he simply didn't possess the skills necessary to make high-end knives - and with worked back springs at that.
There something very fishy about the parentage of the pearl-scaled, worked-back stockman I've mentioned earlier in the thread.

What threw Stan was the fact that when I asked initially if he knew which 'CUTLER' at Ibberson's used the initals G.H. in 1979, he never even gave ex-warehouseman Hale a thought for obvious reasons.


Stan Silverwood on the other hand worked on basic pocket knives at Wostenholm's whist Stan was there. He was made redundant and remained out of work until Stan got him a job at Ibbersons doing the same basic work....'a very genuine man - excellent at his job - but he just wouldn't have known where to begin making high-end stuff'.

So in conclusion I would suggest that whilst there were some very funny 'goings-on' in Sheffield at the time in question, it would be a safe bet that any Ibberson 'QUALITY' knives with liners stamped SS will be the work of the man himself.

I must say that he became quite agitated - understanably so - when I told him about all this and from my point of view I would be grateful if we could bring it to a close.
T

mito0
20-01-11, 12:05 AM
!
very interesting insight as always, owdtom.
it's strange to me that even recent history of sheffied's cutlery industry is often just as cloudy as its distant past.
while a mystery is alluring, it's frustrating that some knowledge is simply lost forever.

Iron Hoarder
22-01-11, 12:42 PM
T.Turner & Co. The tang stamp is three lines. The top one I can't make out. The second is T.Turner & Co. and the third says Best of ????? Anyone got some idea of the age. The pile side scale is slightly rotted away and missing a chip since apparently it was found partially buried at some point. Actually in better shape than some of the knives I have that were never buried. Is it Sambar Stag on the handles? I really like this knife.

http://i55.tinypic.com/mk99x0.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/2jcv8t1.jpg

OWDTOM
22-01-11, 01:47 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1614084]T.Turner & Co. The tang stamp is three lines. The top one I can't make out. The second is T.Turner & Co. and the third says Best of ????? Anyone got some idea of the age. The pile side scale is slightly rotted away and missing a chip since apparently it was found partially buried at some point. Actually in better shape than some of the knives I have that were never buried. Is it Sambar Stag on the handles? I really like this knife.



It says 'BEST STEEL'.

The figuring on the scales is well rubbed as one would expect after all these years, but it might well be Sambar. Chital antler was also much used around that time.
T

]

Smiling-Knife
22-01-11, 02:26 PM
Nice one Ironhoarder. The top line of the stamp likely says Encore. I think it dates 1880s to very early 1900s.

OWDTOM
22-01-11, 03:40 PM
[QUOTE=Smiling-Knife;1614130]Nice one Ironhoarder. The top line of the stamp likely says Encore.



Odds-on it does - I missed that end letter 'E' Steve - these old peepers are not what they once were.
T

Iron Hoarder
23-01-11, 03:35 PM
Oddly enough I can read the stamp better in the picture than I could with the naked eye. Strange.

OWDTOM
30-01-11, 07:08 PM
I picked up this rather nice liittle ivory-scaled Butler two-piece earlier today. Very similar to a 'pellet' knife, but in this instance the slotted opening lugs on the back edges are oblong not round.
T
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img063.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img062.jpg
.

OWDTOM
30-01-11, 07:12 PM
Here's another from the same Fair:
Just under five inches closed - good solid stag - square end tang - marked @Buck & Hickman Ltd.
T
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img059.jpg

OWDTOM
30-01-11, 07:20 PM
And another:
This time a Joseph Rodgers budding/grafting knife in ivory. Bit of a bonus having Sutton & Sons Reading stamped on the flat of the pile side. The marks in the ivory near the hinge pin are not hairline pin cracks, but natural fissures.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img061.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img060.jpg

Smiling-Knife
30-01-11, 07:25 PM
Very nice knives T. Thanks for posting them. I hope you are well.

OWDTOM
30-01-11, 07:47 PM
Last but not least a very rare knife - in my experience at any rate:

An old Victorian four-piece; tang-marked throughout with the 'beehive' image together with simply 'Slater Brothers' - no Sheffield no England.

I have never before come across such a knife as this - it is essentially a whittler, but with specially stepped back-springs to accomodate a corkscrew. Not only that, but also with a button hook instead of a second pen blade.

The crack across the shield is unfortunate, but the professional repair to the pearl near the head is fair enough.

Note the width of the master blade (top right) bearing on both back-springs.
T
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img064.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img066.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img065.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img067.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img068.jpg

yaro5
30-01-11, 09:18 PM
I have never before come across such a knife as this - it is essentially a whittler, but with specially stepped back-springs to accomodate a corkscrew. Not only that, but also with a button hook in place of a pen blade.



Nice find. Custom order perhaps?

Joe

OWDTOM
31-01-11, 07:59 PM
Nice find. Custom order perhaps?

Joe

Could well have been Joe; but if we take into account that Slater Bros sales portfolio in 1884, held a massive 5,914 patterns, it is just as likely to have been one of many such innovations, thought up in order to attract even greater custom.
T

Iron Hoarder
31-01-11, 08:43 PM
Nice! Love that Buck and Hickman in particular and the others as well.

dkonopinski
31-01-11, 10:08 PM
Slater Bros sales portfolio in 1884, held a massive 5,914 patterns,

Tom, I'm staggered. I thought I'd understood a bit about the old Sheffield cutlery industry and then you come along with facts like that and blow me out of the water.

I need to sleep on it.

David

Southon'R
31-01-11, 10:41 PM
Hi All.
Hoping for some help here. My partner has just inherited these knifes. The pruner is marked Butler Sheffield it is 4" lond with a 3" blade.

Thanks in advance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/2005rick/IMG_4586.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/2005rick/IMG_4584.jpg

Captain
31-01-11, 10:49 PM
Hi Southon'R
I would like to see the Rouke and kukri posted with more pictures maybe new thread, I don't know about the bowie but the Kukri looks like a nice one.
Captain

Southon'R
31-01-11, 10:53 PM
Hi Southon'R
I would like to see the Rouke and kukri posted with more pictures maybe new thread, I don't know about the bowie but the Kukri looks like a nice one.
Captain
Will do Captain. I will take some more pictures first.

yaro5
01-02-11, 06:13 PM
Could well have been Joe; but if we take into account that Slater Bros sales portfolio in 1884, held a massive 5,914 patterns, it is just as likely to have been one of many such innovations, thought up in order to attract even greater custom.
T
Amazing stat. They certainly had their bases covered. Doesn't leave too much room for custom orders. With that amount of patterns on Slater Bros books, I would assume that there are a few knives out there with patterns that would seem new to us.

Joe

OWDTOM
01-02-11, 09:37 PM
I would assume that there are a few knives out there with patterns that would seem new to us.

Joe



How right you are Joe!
T

Captain
01-02-11, 11:00 PM
Will do Captain. I will take some more pictures first.

Will look forward to them I love to see old kuks.

grangerknives
02-02-11, 06:16 AM
Lovely stuff there. I don't suppose we could persuade you to post some bigger pictures of them, could we?
For those of us that virtually never see such lovlies in the here and now?


A couple of excellent Ibberson knives there Tom, that stockman's is the first I've seen made with stag scales.



Here's a small selection of pearl Ibbersons, all are marked with Stan Shaw's (SS) liner mark.

4025.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00647.jpg

Sowbelly stockman.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00648.jpg

3164, decorated/workbacked.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00658.jpg

2121.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00701.jpg

Two blades plus scissors.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00706.jpg

4470.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00630.jpg

3089, workbacked.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/d683d852-1.jpghttp://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/5c5cf2cd-1.jpg


Mick

OWDTOM
02-02-11, 10:06 PM
Few bits from the SwinderbyLincolnshire Showground Fair yesterday that might be of interest.

The Large belt-cutting knife has a central lock running full length alongside the backspring. It is tang stamped T-1 Klein Tools Chicago USA
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img070.jpg

Iron Hoarder
06-02-11, 05:23 PM
Found this one today at the Alexandra palace show.
Thomas Turner stainless blade, one piece fake ivory body. The blade is opened and closed by pushing the button on the bottom up and down. (Down is open and up is closed)

http://i56.tinypic.com/mkkhtk.jpg

OWDTOM
06-02-11, 08:45 PM
Found this one today at the Alexandra palace show.
Thomas Turner stainless blade, one piece fake ivory body. The blade is opened and closed by pushing the button on the bottom up and down. (Down is open and up is closed)

http://i56.tinypic.com/mkkhtk.jpg



Simple, but unusual and well worth having and the condition is absolutely spot on - good for you.
T

Iron Hoarder
06-02-11, 09:08 PM
I've had this one awhile. I can't remember if it's one I got from Tom or if I found it but I went back through the whole thread over the last month or so and didn't see it so here it is.

James Barber ERA in perfect shape.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2yvp3x5.jpg

Iron Hoarder
22-02-11, 10:45 PM
I have three of these Ibbersons. One has a backwards F and 38 on the liner. One has a dot and 28 or 23 on the liner and the third one has 52-3 on the liner all are stainless bladed but the 52-3 one has Firth on the pile side of the tang.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2rqlu6u.jpg

wellington03
22-02-11, 11:44 PM
Great to see your knives Iron Hoarder, I guess those stainless Ibbersons date from the late 1920s and 30s. Quite a popular pattern in its day I reckon.



Here's a pic showing two more Ibberson fruit knives, stainless blades and backsprings, both date from 1930.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/Stan%20Shaw%20Knives/DSC00699.jpg

Mick

Iron Hoarder
26-02-11, 03:43 PM
My 2" and under ones. I'll try to put names on them later. The tortoise on the far right is a Vulcan.

http://i56.tinypic.com/keah3s.jpg


The only one with a makers mark (besides the Tortoise one Vulcan T.Ellin & Co.) is the first chatelaine which is stamped CG&T Sheffield. All the other are unmarked or only have Sheffield Or Cast Steel stamped on them

OWDTOM
26-02-11, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1639374]

. The tortoise on the far right is a Vulcan.


Vulcan was the trade mark used by Thomas Ellin & Co as I'm sure you know, but it would be odd if the company name doesn't apear on the blade tang - unless of course it has been worn away.
T

Southon'R
26-02-11, 06:13 PM
Hi

Whilst clearing out the garage, I came across these.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/2005rick/IMG_4594.jpg

Iron Hoarder
26-02-11, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1639374]

. The tortoise on the far right is a Vulcan.


Vulcan was the trade mark used by Thomas Ellin & Co as I'm sure you know, but it would be odd if the company name doesn't apear on the blade tang - unless of course it has been worn away.
T

Yep, it still has the full stamp. Vulcan just sticks in my mind better than T. Ellin & Co. I guess his marketing ploy for a memorable name is still working.

zorro
26-02-11, 08:40 PM
Hi

Whilst clearing out the garage, I came across these.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/2005rick/IMG_4594.jpg

Has the middle one got a makers stamp on iy?

Southon'R
26-02-11, 09:50 PM
Hi Zorro

Not very clear, Looks like it says " Butler & Co Bradford "

zorro
27-02-11, 11:39 AM
Hi Zorro

Not very clear, Looks like it says " Butler & Co Bradford "

Ah, Butler the cutler. :)

Butlers were a Sheffield company, can't get a fix on a Bradford connection though? :S

Southon'R
27-02-11, 11:53 AM
Hi Zorro

Heres a close up
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/2005rick/IMG_4595.jpg

Looking more like Butterfield now though......

wellington03
27-02-11, 12:33 PM
A very worthy old pruner, the mark is that of the Bradford cutler "Butterfield B & A, 7 Bridge St & 29 Tyrrel St (P.O Directory of Bradford 1883).

If anyone wants to search for particular makers or retailers and any relevant dates etc here's a link to a useful website.
http://www.historicaldirectories.org

Mick

zorro
27-02-11, 12:57 PM
A very worthy old pruner, the mark is that of the Bradford cutler "Butterfield B & A, 7 Bridge St & 29 Tyrrel St (P.O Directory of Bradford 1883).
Mick

Very worthy, my sort of old working knife. :)

Thanks Mick. ;)

Southon'R
27-02-11, 01:05 PM
Very worthy, my sort of old working knife. :)

Thanks Mick. ;)

Thanks Mick & Zorro You guys know your stuff ! :)


Regards

Dick

zorro
27-02-11, 01:19 PM
Thanks Mick & Zorro You guys know your stuff ! :)


Regards

Dick

Very kind, but Micks probably forgot more than I'll ever know. :D

wellington03
27-02-11, 02:10 PM
Very kind, but Micks probably forgot more than I'll ever know. :D

You're too kind Dave, I knew you'd know that I'd probably Know…but I wasn't sure If I knew..I don't know as much as others know..

Mick :D

zorro
27-02-11, 02:17 PM
You're too kind Dave, I knew you'd know that I'd probably Know…but I wasn't sure If I knew..I don't know as much as others know..

Mick :D

I know just what you mean...........:lol:

OWDTOM
27-02-11, 04:05 PM
A very worthy old pruner, the mark is that of the Bradford cutler "Butterfield B & A, 7 Bridge St & 29 Tyrrel St (P.O Directory of Bradford 1883).

If anyone wants to search for particular makers or retailers and any relevant dates etc here's a link to a useful website.
http://www.historicaldirectories.org Mick





This particular trade name sticks out in my memory more than most Mick.

I first came across it a (very) long time ago and over the years I suppose I've had a dozen or so knives bearing this mark; most of which were single bladed I might add.

I well remember putting in a great deal of effort to find out if there was someone named Butterfield in Bradford who actually MADE knives - in other words a CUTLER by definition - as I had always understood the term to mean.

It was then that I came up with the same information shown in your post, but when I decided to check on the dictionary definition of 'CUTLER' I began to have doubts.

Websters massive comprehensive dictionary defines 'cutler' as....... "one who manufactures...OR...deals in cutlery".

A few years later I picked up another Butterfield Bradford marked knife which re-kindled my old doubts, because this time, quite clearly stamped on the pileside of the tang were the words 'SHEFFIELD MADE'.

I think it's safe to assume that in all probabllity Butterfields did make their own knives at one stage, but it might be also that they changed their manufacturing base, or else they couldn't cope with costs and farmed out production of knives to Sheffield.

T

T

wellington03
27-02-11, 07:05 PM
Interesting that you found that Butterfield knife with a Sheffield mark Tom, I had assumed that the knife posted earlier was Sheffield made but wasn't certain.

I think Webster's Dictionary definition of "cutler" as one who manufactures.. OR..deals in cutlery is accurate and correct. I've looked through a great many directories, checking their "Trades & Professions" Classified sections, always finding a good number of "cutlers," virtually all towns have them listed, I suspect most, if not all in many cases, were just iron mongers and hardware shops that sold cutlery..

Here's very fine three thick 3 3/8" sportsman's (thanks Tom) marked CARRICK BROS, 237 ARGYLE ST, GLASGOW (the pocket blade pile side tang is stamped SHEFFIELD. Carrick Bros are listed in the Glasgow PO Directory as cutlers 1907-

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/DSC03897-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/DSC03898-1.jpg


Here's a link to the NLS website. (GLASGOW directories)
www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Glasgow


Mick

OWDTOM
27-02-11, 07:18 PM
Looks better every time I see it Mick - an absolute belter as they say!
T

yaro5
27-02-11, 07:26 PM
An absolute quality piece Mick, and stag handles to die for.
Very interesting info on the definition of a cutler Tom. I was always of the opinion that a cutler was the actual maker. Thanks
Joe

OWDTOM
27-02-11, 07:47 PM
Of course there is a third possibility; one which has always brought me to a dead end however; and that is where Provincial retailers/'cutlers' commissioned Sheffield outworkers/little mesters to forge and mark blades, springs., liners, scales etc, and have them made up by their own workers - in order to eliminate the middleman.

Not altogether dissimilar you might say to Brookes & Crookes and others, who had the basic forks for picnic and campaign sets made by William Hutton's, then scaled, fitted and finished them themselves.
T

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 07:56 PM
Here is a Butterfield Bradford I've had for a few months. Pile side scale has a pin crack all the way across at one end and a small chip but otherwise in good shape. It does not say Sheffield just Butterfield and Bradford on three lines on both blades. I think it is real Tortoise and gold leaf under the scales.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2r44hmr.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/1fb6gw.jpg

OWDTOM
27-02-11, 08:08 PM
A nice lttle knife IH.
You will have noted I'm sure the square kick on the pen blade and the double balance rivets for the lazy's' back spring.
T

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:11 PM
No mark of any kind. Much shinier than the picture shows.

http://i52.tinypic.com/23lo32v.jpg

This one says Turner Aylor & Co. (It may be Taylor or Naylor with the first letter ground off but looks to be positioned intentionally to avoid that with the grinding of the tang)

http://i52.tinypic.com/25kis5f.jpg

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:17 PM
J.Howarth stainless blade with an etch that says stainless. Ivory scales. About 2 1/4" closed.

http://i55.tinypic.com/qn7ep1.jpg

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:30 PM
This one just says Sheffield on two blades. Ivory scales. About 2".

http://i56.tinypic.com/28cn4si.jpg

No makers mark. Pearl scales and file worked back springs.

http://i53.tinypic.com/fuvqqd.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2u930n6.jpg

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:36 PM
A better picture of the Vulcan T. Ellin knife from earlier. 2" closed

http://i52.tinypic.com/169s3yf.jpg

A nice little 6 tool Chatelaine. No mark at all.

http://i53.tinypic.com/10mrn9e.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/1z32buf.jpg

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:44 PM
This one just has CAST STEEL on the tang. 2" closed

http://i53.tinypic.com/bi1jic.jpg

No makers mark at all on this one either. About 1 3/4" closed.

http://i54.tinypic.com/66yn38.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/2zoj96a.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/ao430y.jpg

Iron Hoarder
27-02-11, 08:51 PM
C.G. & T Sheffield Chatelaine. Four tools. 1 3/4" closed

http://i51.tinypic.com/ta644z.jpg

Another one with no markings. Again about 1 3/4" closed.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2wm1h76.jpg

RodgersLad
05-03-11, 07:14 PM
Does anyone know what it usually means if there are letters on the inside of liners of pocket knives? I know Stan Shaw knives are marked SS- followed by a year etc and sometimes there are numbers inside for the liner size/pattern. I am asking because I always look at the liners of a knife and i have a Rodgers one which is stamped G O P inside. I have never seen one with letters inside before.

I'd appreciate if anyone has any info.

Thanks, Andy

OWDTOM
05-03-11, 07:49 PM
Does anyone know what it usually means if there are letters on the inside of liners of pocket knives? I know Stan Shaw knives are marked SS- followed by a year etc and sometimes there are numbers inside for the liner size/pattern. I am asking because I always look at the liners of a knife and i have a Rodgers one which is stamped G O P inside. I have never seen one with letters inside before.

I'd appreciate if anyone has any info.

Thanks, Andy

The main reason for marking liners - at Ibbersons at any rate - was to assist the girls in the warehouse who 'wiped off and packed' prior to dispatch, to return anything not quite up to standard, back to the cutler responsible. This applied equally to Stan Shaw and the Osborne brothers as it did to the longshop one-end men whose work was identified by a clock number.

I've never come across a Joseph Rodgers knife so marked, but in fairness I've never really looked.

Are the marks on yours easily seen Andy, i.e. are they placed on the liner opposite a nail notch hollow?
T

OWDTOM
06-03-11, 04:26 PM
Picked up these this morning - excellent springs actions on all - excluding the quill knife of course.

Top picture Five inches closed deep stamped on both blade and saw.. Army& Navy CSL with the 'Encore' Thos Turner mark on the pilesides.
Stag scaled Wostenholm two blade in carbon - as made never sharpened.

Picture Two... 1, Joseph Rodgers, Cutlers to HM, No 6 Norfolk St, etc Ivory scales square joints carbon steel. on the back a corkscrew, open-bodied gimlet and a spike.

2, George IV (c 1825) Quill knife in ivory stamped G crown R Wood's patent on the tang and 'silver steel' under the back edge.

3, Pearl scaled five-piece in carbon by H.G.Long & Co file worked and gilded back springs bot inside and out. Has all its original crocus finish.

T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img109.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img110.jpg

chris m
06-03-11, 04:53 PM
The pruner above looks like it has jig bone scales ?

chris m
06-03-11, 04:55 PM
Are the pruner scales jig bone ?

RodgersLad
06-03-11, 05:33 PM
The main reason for marking liners - at Ibbersons at any rate - was to assist the girls in the warehouse who 'wiped off and packed' prior to diespatch, to return anything not quite up to standard, back to the cutler responsible. This applied equally to Stan Shaw and the Osborne brothers as it did to the longshop one-end men whose work was identified by a clock number.

I've never come across a Joseph Rodgers knife so marked, but in fairness I've never really looked.

Are the marks on yours easily seen Andy, i.e. are they placed on the liner opposite a nail notch hollow?
T

That makes sense what you were saying about Ibbersons, i never realised that's what they were used for.

This is a picture of the knife. The second picture i have tried to show the stamps.

Unusually, I thought the liner stampings were stamped the other way around. It's as though these are stamped upside down.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2753/img7755i.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/i/img7755i.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6787/img7756v.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/img7756v.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9066/img7757.jpg (http://img846.imageshack.us/i/img7757.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Iron Hoarder
06-03-11, 05:36 PM
I don't know how you find them Tom but that is some spectacular luck for one day. I haven't found that many great ones in two years. Superb! I love them all.

zorro
06-03-11, 05:39 PM
John Milner & Co. "INTRINSIC" MOP lobster.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0386.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0388.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0387.jpg

OWDTOM
06-03-11, 10:11 PM
Are the pruner scales jig bone ?





No, they're genuine stag antler, worn to that level of smoothness through years of handling.
Here's a shot of the other scale.

T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img111.jpg

OWDTOM
06-03-11, 10:34 PM
I don't know how you find them Tom but that is some spectacular luck for one day. I haven't found that many great ones in two years. Superb! I love them all.


I often come away empty-handed I.H. but you have to remember that over the years I have built up acquaintanceships with certain dealers who look out for knives on my behalf then bring them along for me to see.

I was lucky today because the Rodgers sportsman and the five-piece W.H. Long & Co knife had already been sold to two other dealers who got to this particular stall before I did; due to my yet again having been held up on the M1. They were pointed out to me by a friend and after a bit of haggling, both agreed to sell me the knives - obviously for quite a bit more than they had paid, but that's life as they say.

T

zorro
06-03-11, 10:41 PM
So, following on from this thread, http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?121874-Barker-amp-..........&p=1645839&posted=1#post1645839 , a bone handled BARKER & ENGLAND lobster.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0384.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0385.jpg

mito0
07-03-11, 04:17 PM
Pearl scaled five-piece in carbon by H.G.Long & Co file worked and gilded back springs bot inside and out. Has all its original crocus finish.

T

another great day of hunting, owdtom!
i'd love to see more views of the long five-piece if you get the chance.

OWDTOM
07-03-11, 07:03 PM
another great day of hunting, owdtom!
i'd love to see more views of the long five-piece if you get the chance.



I took the knife across to Stan's home last night, but should have it back by Wednesday lunchtime when we meet up at Kelham. There's a miniscule 'ding' in the cutting edge of the pen blade point which he will whet out for me when he's back at work on Wednesday morning - it will then be pristine in every sense of the word.

Up whilst it was still dark for the one-day fair at Swinderby this morning (these old bones now take a hell of a lot of persuading and won't accept much more).

Chance meetings with some of the more serious knife collectors I've known for years revealed that they'd had a very poor day. I managed to find these:

Top picture - Thick pearl five piece marked throughout Sheffield Stainless Steel. I don't normally buy unmarked (makers) knives but it was cheap enough and is totally unused. For those interested the pearl scales alone would cost £40 a pair now - if you could find a pearl cutter that is. Gillotts in Sheffield closed down a couple of years ago and they were the last in this part of the world.

The big pocket knife is by George Butler - synthetic scales but quite rugged and full in the blade.

Picture 2. Ivory seven-piece including picker and tweezers), again by Butler's (Art marked) milled liners, flush joints etc - a very pleasing little knife.

Alongside that is a three-piece Brookes & Crookes in ivory - still has all its polish and carbon to boot - excellent knife.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img112.jpg
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img113-1.jpg

mito0
08-03-11, 04:25 AM
wow!
can't blame you on the unmarked pearl piece - what a beauty!
i don't remember ever seeing that particular pattern before, either.
very nice.

OWDTOM
08-03-11, 04:05 PM
wow!
can't blame you on the unmarked pearl piece - what a beauty!
i don't remember ever seeing that particular pattern before, either.
very nice.


I picked up four of the same pattern at Newark last year; same condition too; they were stamped simply 'Warris Sheffield'.
Warris's were on Eyre Street until the mid-seventies when they moved to Arundel Street. The odd thing being that although they were listed as Warris & CO, the & Co bit wasn't included in the stamp - at least, not on the knives I've mentioned. Pinders own the mark now.
Chances are that my nameless knife was made up by somebody with a stock of Warris materials for that pattern.... yet once again, we might never get to know.
T

firerob
09-03-11, 11:33 PM
Hi all i am trying to find some info on a knife i bought today it is made by atkinson brothers of sheffield,and at the bottom of the blade has the marking W/l\D,any help greatly appreciated i have tried to enclose a picture but i not really sure howagain help greatly appreciated

zorro
10-03-11, 08:02 PM
Hi all i am trying to find some info on a knife i bought today it is made by atkinson brothers of sheffield,and at the bottom of the blade has the marking W/l\D,any help greatly appreciated i have tried to enclose a picture but i not really sure howagain help greatly appreciated

Have a look here. http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?63126-Circa-WW1-Military-Folders

And here. http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?65357-Circa-WW11-Military-Folders

A guide to posting photographs. http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?90780-How-to-post-photographs-on-BB-v-2.0&highlight=posting+photos

Welcome to BB. :)

OWDTOM
13-03-11, 08:29 PM
A variety of fancy names were dreamed up by Rodgers/Wostenholm in the late seventies for what are basically very simple single and two-blade pocket and penknives......farmer's knife, pocket knife, pruning knife, double palf knife, palf knife, bunny knife, stud knife, countryman's, knifedouble woodsman's knife, netsman's knife, gardener's knife etc, etc.


Wih the exception of the stockman's knife distinguishing features are so minimal as to be of practically no use at all in a general collection made up of simple pen and pocket knives.

The names crop up on BB from time to time and this sheet from the R/W 1979 price list might be of use.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img120.jpg

RodgersLad
13-03-11, 11:39 PM
Thanks for showing that owdtom, i found it very interesting. I have never seen that RW mark before.

That stockmans knife pattern with the mock stag handle must have been made by rodgers for a long time as i have seen one example with the cutlers to his majesty stamp before. Most i have seen had the marks that will have been on the knife on the pricelist page though. I guess this was because of it's popularity in the states. I know those bunny knives were very popular in Australia too.

Great find,

Andy

wellington03
14-03-11, 12:13 AM
Thanks for posting that RW Group price list Tom.

I don't know if I've posted these C 1971 Seth Birdwell Cutlery catalogue pages before ?, they show part of the product range of the then newly formed Rodgers/Wostenholm Grp. The prices shown are in US$.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan114.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan113.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan112.jpg

Fixed blade knives
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan115.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan116.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/scan117.jpg

Mick

RodgersLad
14-03-11, 01:07 AM
Hi Mick, brilliant, thanks for posting those, not seen any of them before (the catalogue pages i mean).

I recognise a lot of the knives there. To say it's 1970's, there looks like some good quality knives there. I have always liked those IXL office knives actually, they look nice and different with the old style writing across the handle. I know they are pretty standard but still.....they look the part :-)

Andy

OWDTOM
14-03-11, 09:41 PM
Thanks for showing that owdtom, i found it very interesting. I have never seen that RW mark before.



Andy


This mark may also be of interest Andy, it was used on tableware packaging etc, whilst Rodgers were still operating at their Pond Hill Works.

T




http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img121.jpg

colin77
15-03-11, 01:26 AM
the knife at the bottom looks similar to one i am trying to research, in proportion any how, mine has exide written on a silver looking shaft made by j nowill {poss dowill] & sons sheffield england on the larger blade & what looks to be crossed keys and a * above a D on the smaller blade any help gratefull, thanks

OWDTOM
15-03-11, 03:18 PM
Thanks for showing that owdtom, i found it very interesting. I have never seen that RW mark before.

Andy


I've posted another page from the R/W 1979 price list on the 'Hopkinson Release Knife' thread which you might like to peruse.
It seems that at that time the firm made twenty nine Rodgers marked knives and twenty nine Wostenholm-marked knives; but whereas all the Wostenholm's were folders, five of the Rodgers' were fixed-blades.
T

OWDTOM
26-03-11, 02:38 PM
PRODUCE OF PETERBOROUGH:

Yesterday's 200 miles round trip to the 1700 stall fair was worthwhile both in terms of weather and finds, although these days I have a distinct dislike of having to get up at the crack of dawn.

The serpentine John Copley & Sons measures five inches closed and has an excellent spring action.

The ivory six-piece sportsman is tang stamped throughout - Westby, Leicester.

The little ivory budding knife is stamped (B)EMROSE - Derby.

Although unmarked, the workmanship of the eraser is exceptional.; tortoise shell scales underlaid in gold, raised pins, milled liners, gadrooning of the tang for its entire length right round the head, excellent grinding to the blade and ornamental bolster.

The extremely rare grain of rice knife made my day!

Next week sees us staying at our daughter's in North Devon, then its Swinderby/Lincoln followed by Newark when we get back - fingers crossed!

T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img172.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img173.jpg

wellington03
26-03-11, 04:01 PM
PRODUCE OF PETERBOROUGH:

Yesterday's 200 miles round trip to the 1700 stall fair was worthwhile both in terms of weather and finds, although these days I have a distinct dislike of having to get up at the crack of dawn.

The serpentine John Copley & Sons measures five inches closed and has an excellent spring action.

The ivory six-piece sportsman is tang stamped throughout - Westby, Leicester.

The little ivory budding knife is stamped (B)EMROSE - Derby.

Although unmarked, the workmanship of the eraser is exceptional.; tortoise shell scales underlaid in gold, raised pins, milled liners, gadrooning of the tang for its entire length right round the head, excellent grinding to the blade and ornamental bolster.

The extremely rare grain of rice knife made my day!

Next week sees us staying at our daughter's in North Devon, then its Swinderby/Lincoln followed by Newark when we get back - fingers crossed!

T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img172.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img173.jpg


A very fine selection Tom ..I'm always astonished and surprised seeing what you find, I particularly like that eraser, truly exceptional, the great little grain of rice knife..so tiny, must be one of the smallest I've seen and that large Copley serpentine, it looks in great shape...thanks for showing.

Here's a scan of an illustrated John Copley & Sons envelope

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/626448fa.jpg

Mick

Smiling-Knife
26-03-11, 04:12 PM
Great score Tom. I hope all is well with you. Thanks for adding the scan Mick.

OWDTOM
26-03-11, 05:04 PM
Forgot to include this five-piece Wilkinson Angler's knife complete with padded box.
The article next to the disgorger is a pair of tweezers.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img174.jpg

grace horne
26-03-11, 06:19 PM
lovely little things!!

Now, who do you know who likes tiny knives and scissors?:D

OWDTOM
26-03-11, 07:19 PM
lovely little things!!

Now, who do you know who likes tiny knives and scissors?:D

There but for the Grace of you know who go I.
T

wellington03
26-03-11, 09:40 PM
PRODUCE OF PETERBOROUGH:
The ivory six-piece sportsman is tang stamped throughout - Westby, Leicester.

The little ivory budding knife is stamped (B)EMROSE - Derby.



Just been looking for more details on the above two knives Tom..both look late 19C.

"BEMROSE EDW" was listed as a furnishing ironmonger and manufacturing cutler, 3 Market place, Derby. (Wright's Directory of South Derbys 1874)

"WESTBY J" were listed as tool dealers and cutlers 162 (Spencer's Illustrated Leicester Almanac 1880).

Mick

corvineitor
28-03-11, 08:48 PM
Hello friends,have you a scan of an illustrated John Clarks & Sons ? Thank very much ,best regards

OWDTOM
05-04-11, 08:12 PM
Back from Devon yesterday, my wife and I had just about enough breath left to make the trip across to the 3000 stall Swinderby-cum-Lincoln Fair this morning.

Normally the best time to go is early on Day One (yesterday) before things get picked over , but at £50 entrance fee for two, plus petrol for the 100 miles round trip, plus food, the thing has become something of a joke - and a sick one at that.

However, not to be deterred, we arrived at 9am, paid our Day Two fiver each and sallied forth in search of anything special that might have been missed yesterday.

I found just one knife only - worthy of the term collectible - a six thick, twelve blade Congress marked J.R. McClelland, Sheffield and a little pearl scaled whittler that I thought was marked 'Morten', which after cleaning proved to be KORTEN - a German Firm from around 1900.

These are they:

The Congress by the way is square jointed and displaying all the blades ijn the open position is nigh impossible. In any event it places too much strain on the back springs and shouldn't really be considered.
T
p.s. yes the outer blade bottom right on the shot of the backsprings has had the point snapped off unfortunately.


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img178-1.jpgre they:http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img176.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img180.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img179-1.jpg

Iron Hoarder
05-04-11, 10:39 PM
I haven't found much lately.
IXL Wostenholm

http://i53.tinypic.com/n69xya.jpg

OWDTOM
06-04-11, 01:43 PM
I passed on the shot of the McClelland knife to Geoff Tweedale because the name is not included in his Directory: he came back with this, which is of interest.
Apparently the McClelland's were merchants of Irish origin based in Birmingham and the name appears in one directory (1884) only.
Hepworth and Pilley are not recorded in any Trade Directory as far as we know.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/McClellandJamesR1884.jpg

meismorph
06-04-11, 04:36 PM
hi all iam looking for any available info on this pocket knife
it bears the marks coronation hm king edward Vlll may 12 1937
pic attatched (hopefully)
thanks gavin
cant seem to post pic
oops forgot to add ixs george wostenholme sheffield

yaro5
06-04-11, 04:43 PM
I passed on the shot of the McClelland knife to Geoff Tweedale because the name is not included in his Directory: he came back with this, which is of interest.
Apparently the McClelland's were merchants of Irish origin based in Birmingham and the name appears in one directory (1884) only.
Hepworth and Pilley are not recorded in any Trade Directory as far as we know.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/McClellandJamesR1884.jpg

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img178-1.jpgre they:http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img176.jpg

Tom,
What a great find.Not only an unusual 12 blade knife, but a rare stamping to boot. Must of made the long trip all the more worthwhile.
Here is a very similar congress, alas only five thick,ten blade marked "XLNT W.Harmar & Co. Sheffield"

http://i45.tinypic.com/nnu0k5.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/2yx2d6r.jpg

Joe

OWDTOM
06-04-11, 08:36 PM
As a matter of interest Joe are all ten blades on your knife identically marked?

First day of Newark tomorrow by the way - hoping for better things overall.
T

nowhereman
06-04-11, 09:10 PM
I love the prescot millner nice to see a different type of 'swiss army knife' thing, and the Humprys "Radiant" fine t/shell penknife f/w C 1930s looks stunning...

v

yaro5
06-04-11, 10:14 PM
As a matter of interest Joe are all ten blades on your knife identically marked?
T

Unfortunately Tom, it was one of the ones that got away.

Joe

OWDTOM
07-04-11, 08:17 PM
Newark - day 1.

Yet another massive tailback outbound on the M1 cost us at least an hour's searching time this morning. The knife gods aren't doing me any favours these days!
Still, I did manage to pick up four nice knives, one of which was with its new owner even before I left the Showground, so I'm afraid a photo is not available.

Those below are:
Joseph Rodger's & Sons double hollow bellied lock-back in stag measuring just under five and a quarter closed.
Joseph Rodgers single blade - absolutely mint - marked 'Rodgers Stainless' in a box on the flat and N0 6, Norfolk St on the tang. The Star and Maltese Cross are on the pileside tang as usual.

The third is an Ibberson lobster whittler in pearl made by Stan Shaw in 1957. The blades might need his opinion/attention when I call to collect him next Monday lunchtime.

The fourth knife was a very costly four and a half inch closed three blade by Wostenholm. The tortoise shell scales were each almost a quarter of an inch thick and pushing an inch wide: the double bolsters were almost an inch square and the three blades were a large spearpoint. a small sheepfoot and a slender lambfoot in a layout not dissimilar to a Stockman.
This was truly one of the best knives I've had in my hands for a very long time - exhibition quality but wthout the polished blade surfaces.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img181.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img182.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img183.jpg

wellington03
07-04-11, 09:41 PM
Certainly sounds like you've had a busy and fairly fruitful day at Newark Tom, those three knives all look very decent to my untrained eye, I particularly like that large lock-back Rodgers, a really super thing....that Wostenholm must have been pretty special.

Thanks for showing.

Mick

Iron Hoarder
09-04-11, 11:53 AM
Aside from large knives wearing stag this is my favorite sort of knife. A hand forged Ibberson that is nearly mint aside from some spiders. The scales are Ivory and it advertises: C. Clode &Sons. Ltd, Shipping Butchers, Cardiff. There is the number 92 stamped on the liner. Pile side of the main blade is stamped Made in England Sheffield in a circular pattern and the pile side of the small blade is stamped Hand Forged.

http://i55.tinypic.com/24czcex.jpg

http://i52.tinypic.com/6ofxiw.jpg

Iron Hoarder
10-04-11, 02:23 PM
Unfortunately these were at the second boot sale of the day and the guy had already sold some as singles. The box on the right is a full box of twelve and the other box with the damaged top has five. Aside from the open one in the picture they are all in the original plastic wrapper (covered in oil) inside the little cardboard boxes. The tangs are stamped H. Fisher, Sheffield and they are all advertising the same company. (I'm assuming this part since I don't want to open any more since the cardboard is brittle.)

http://i56.tinypic.com/2yxn993.jpg

OWDTOM
11-04-11, 07:28 PM
Ranking alongside the exhibition quality three blade Wostenholm mentioned in post #3151 above this 10/12 piece sportsman's knife in chequered buffalo horn is equally the best I've had for quite some time.
Measuring four and five eighths closed, the principal carbon steel components are clearly stamped 'Seals & Co, London Wall. I say 10/12 piece because the smallest article is a combination wire-cutter/screwdriver/nail file.
T



http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img186.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img185.jpg

nogga
11-04-11, 07:43 PM
hello all
can any one help me find info on a penknife,it ha 1 broad blade ,the other blade am assuming is a tin opener,its stamped T.ELLINS&CO SHEFFIELD ,but also has stamped 1941 and stamped with an arrow. this knife i came across while rummaging about in the shed where it came from ,i do not know.any info would be appreciated

Time Bandit
11-04-11, 11:36 PM
Sounds like a WW2 2 piece military clasp knife. If you have a look in the 'sticky' WW2 military knives thread on here you should see plenty of examples of them. They were made to a standard spec and were produced by many of the Sheffield knife makers. They came as 2 piece knives (without the spike) and 3 piece (with the spike).

yaro5
12-04-11, 02:25 PM
Ranking alongside the exhibition quality three blade Wostenholm mentioned in post #3151 above this 10/12 piece sportsman's knife in chequered buffalo horn is equally the best I've had for quite some time.
Measuring four and five eighths closed, the principal carbon steel components are clearly stamped 'Seals & Co, London Wall. I say 10/12 piece because the smallest article is a combination wire-cutter/screwdriver/nail file.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img186.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img185.jpg


Quite a stunner Tom. Love those bearded bolsters and I bet not too many people have seen that stamping before. I know I haven't.
Thanks for showing.

Joe

OWDTOM
12-04-11, 03:58 PM
The name is a first-timer for me too Joe - a Sheffield made knife for a London retailer.
The term London Wall refers to a road now running along the line of the old city boundary wall of the Roman Period, as you probably know.
I think Mick has some information about Seals & Co in one of his many 19th century trade directories.

Incidentally, in the closed down shot the brass showing to the right of the shackle is part of one of the dividers, not where a piece of buffalo has broken off, just a trick of the scanner.
T

nogga
12-04-11, 10:58 PM
thank you time bandit
mines a 2 piece

Iron Hoarder
14-04-11, 08:58 PM
Unfortunately this box was empty. Do any of you fine souls have a picture of what an Ibberson model 3136 might be? This box apparently held 2 Dozen.


http://i51.tinypic.com/k1f4sn.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/t70qxy.jpg

OWDTOM
15-04-11, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=Iron Hoarder;1674818]Unfortunately this box was empty. Do any of you fine souls have a picture of what an Ibberson model 3136 might be? This box apparently held 2 Dozen.


Mick should probably have one.
T

Steven Cocker
15-04-11, 06:59 PM
Unfortunately this box was empty. Do any of you fine souls have a picture of what an Ibberson model 3136 might be? This box apparently held 2 Dozen.


http://i51.tinypic.com/k1f4sn.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/t70qxy.jpg

I looked through some old Ibberson Patterns I cant find a 3136 only a 3135 but with it being a similar number your box had knives probably from the Etude range the 3135 was Pearl with a blade and Scissors at the top and a shackle at the bottom.

mito0
15-04-11, 09:01 PM
Ranking alongside the exhibition quality three blade Wostenholm mentioned in post #3151 above this 10/12 piece sportsman's knife in chequered buffalo horn is equally the best I've had for quite some time.
Measuring four and five eighths closed, the principal carbon steel components are clearly stamped 'Seals & Co, London Wall. I say 10/12 piece because the smallest article is a combination wire-cutter/screwdriver/nail file.
T



http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img186.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img185.jpg

wow, what a beauty, owdtom!
i love that sort of bolster - would that be considered "bearded," or was there another name for that particular shape?
also, i've seen that blade rivet referred to as "birdseyed."
is that a proper original name, or a more recent description?

OWDTOM
16-04-11, 12:04 PM
wow, what a beauty, owdtom!
i love that sort of bolster - would that be considered "bearded," or was there another name for that particular shape?
also, i've seen that blade rivet referred to as "birdseyed."
is that a proper original name, or a more recent description?


Apologies - I clicked the wrong button and my reply to this has gone to your pm box.
T

Iron Hoarder
16-04-11, 04:13 PM
C.T. Skelton & Co., Sheffield. The pile side is stamped ENGLAND.

http://i52.tinypic.com/xlw1f5.jpg

OWDTOM
22-04-11, 08:07 PM
Bit of informational 'fodder'.


A month ago I posted a shot of possibly the best little eraser knife I've had in years (see Post #3136).


Even the common erasers, hafted in rosewood hardly ever appear on here, understandably so because they aren't all that interesting to say the least.

I happened to show the knife to Peter Hopkinson down at Jack Adams Works the other day and it came as a surprise, indeed a shock, to learn that Peter and his team, when they were operating out of Trimils Works on London Road pre 1998, made eraser knives in their hundreds of thousands.

'Who on earth for' was my immediate question, knowing that the days of vellum and parchment were long gone - in general terms that is.

The answer was equally a shock - they were sold to China - in orders of 60,000 a year - costing 67p each!

Makes you think!
T

Iron Hoarder
22-04-11, 11:29 PM
I wonder what else used to get shipped to China en-mass and might come back if the borders ever open up.

OWDTOM
24-04-11, 04:06 PM
A trip to Doncaster Racecourse Antiques Fair this morning produced more knife collector friends than knives and most will have gone home empty-handed.

This tt shell scaled, three thick, five piece, marked 'Lund Cornhill throughout measures three and five eighths closed. The master blade spring end has obviously developed a slight hollow over he years and therefore the blade point stands slightly above the liners when closed. Not a lot can be done to improve this other than to file down the kick - which I would not advocate. Everything else is most satisfactory and the springs work perfectly.

The 'slotted' campaign set is a bit different to the norm and most of the plating has worn away exposing the pitted steel of the utensils.
The fork is stamped Wm Hutton & Sons Sheffield - as were the majority of forks used in campaign sets - and the back of the spoon is stamped 'SIMPLEX'.

A patent number is stamped along the knife handle - 22621/14 and perhaps SK might look up the date for me if he would be so kind.
T



http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img188.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img189.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img190.jpg

Iron Hoarder
24-04-11, 05:03 PM
Very nice! I've picked up a couple of simple Lund folders lately and found them to be good quality pieces. Do any of you know anything about C.T. Skelton? I found that pruner lst week and now I've found a small axe by them as well.

OWDTOM
24-04-11, 06:07 PM
This should be of help IH.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img191-1.jpg

Iron Hoarder
24-04-11, 06:19 PM
Thanks Tom! :biggthump

camperman
24-04-11, 09:11 PM
Just a quick question.
Picked up an old slippie with "THE LAMBFOOT KNIFE" on the blade.
White scales gone yellow.
N_ 6 or C I think on the base of the blade and something St on opposite side.

Any ideas?
Many Thanks

zorro
24-04-11, 09:21 PM
Any ideas?
Many Thanks

Pictures will help. :)

camperman
24-04-11, 09:42 PM
Yes, sorry.
No camera handy at the moment, just thought THE LAMBFOOT KNIFE on the blade might be from just from one company.
Does Norfolk St mean anything?
Hard to read I'm afraid.

camperman
24-04-11, 09:51 PM
It also has the star and cross on it.
Does this make it Rogers?
Thanks for your time.

dkonopinski
24-04-11, 09:56 PM
It also has the star and cross on it.
Does this make it Rogers?
Thanks for your time.

The address of 6, Norfolk Street Sheffield and the Star & Maltese Cross mark would indeed suggest Joseph Rodgers (with the d).

Let's see some pics when you can.

David

zorro
24-04-11, 10:05 PM
just thought THE LAMBFOOT KNIFE on the blade might be from just from one company.


Lambfoot describes the shape of the blade, lots of makers stamped their blades Lambfoot. :)

camperman
24-04-11, 10:22 PM
Thanks,
I just thought THE LAMBFOOT KNIFE on the blade etched quite deep, star and cross with ENGLAND underneith, star and cross and Norfolk st might bring up some makers or dates. Like I metioned the scales are yellowed white. Ivory? or of a later date.
I'll try to sort pics tomorrow, just thought it might be a fairly straight forward question.
Sorry if it's not.
Cheers

dkonopinski
24-04-11, 10:24 PM
Thanks,
I just thought THE LAMBFOOT KNIFE on the blade etched quite deep, star and cross with ENGLAND underneith, star and cross and Norfolk st might bring up some makers or dates. Like I metioned the scales are yellowed white. Ivory? or of a later date.
I'll try to sort pics tomorrow, just thought it might be a fairly straight forward question.
Sorry if it's not.
Cheers

No need to apologise. We love all this stuff.

David

zorro
24-04-11, 10:51 PM
No need to apologise. We love all this stuff.

David

Oh yes. :D

I thought I'd stick this one up, not in the best condition but the maker has only had one mention in this thread as far as I can tell. :)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0423.jpg

HERBERT ROBINSON, 3 3/4 in. closed, buffalo scales.

camperman
24-04-11, 11:20 PM
Bad pics off the phone of my loved one
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55108197@N04/5651347524/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55108197@N04/5650780291/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55108197@N04/5651346642/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55108197@N04/5650779665/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55108197@N04/5650779117/in/photostream
Fingers crossed these are visable.

camperman
24-04-11, 11:21 PM
Sorry.

camperman
24-04-11, 11:57 PM
Sorry, having problems with pics.
Please see thread " help with sheffield folder".
Thanks

camperman
25-04-11, 12:03 AM
Loosing will to live.
If anyone is still interested pics of knife may be at
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?125149-Help-with-Lambfoot-Knife
God knows.
Technology.
Bugger.

zorro
25-04-11, 12:12 AM
Loosing will to live.
If anyone is still interested pics of knife may be at
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?125149-Help-with-Lambfoot-Knife
God knows.
Technology.
Bugger.

:ralmao::ralmao::ralmao::ralmao:

I'm sorry mate, but that cracked me up. :lol:

Pictures are showing OK in your other thread. :)

OWDTOM
25-04-11, 05:09 PM
Oh yes. :D

I thought I'd stick this one up, not in the best condition but the maker has only had one mention in this thread as far as I can tell. :)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0423.jpg

HERBERT ROBINSON, 3 3/4 in. closed, buffalo scales.


A true 'POCKET' knife by definitiion David - i.e. the blades being hinged from one end only.

As well as Robinson, Butlers, TEW and several others produced this distinctive pattern with its long slim bolster - a profitable line for quite a while.

They were nicknamed 'Chicken' knives in the trade.
T

mito0
25-04-11, 05:17 PM
:ralmao::ralmao::ralmao::ralmao:

I'm sorry mate, but that cracked me up. :loll


:ralmao:
same here.
that was hysterical.

back to the knife:
the scales look synthetic at first blush, though photos taken in sunlight might provide a clearer view.
this pattern, for me, is probably the quintessential english pocket knife - a lambfoot jack with a slight swayback handle.
very classic, utilitarian and versatile; this knife is instantly and unmistakably identified as english at a single glance.

zorro
25-04-11, 05:22 PM
They were nicknamed 'Chicken' knives in the trade.
T

I didn't know that Tom, thank you. :)

mito0
25-04-11, 05:28 PM
A true 'POCKET' knife by definitiion David - i.e. the blades being hinged from one end only.

As well as Robinson, Butlers, TEW and several others produced this distinctive pattern with its long slim bolster - a profitable line for quite a while.

They were nicknamed 'Chicken' knives in the trade.
T

interesting - i'd never heard of a chicken knife before.
i wonder where that name came from.
this pattern, minus the long bolster, has become a standard in america, often called a "slim jack."
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/download/file.php?id=26592&sid=29244b55222718a1287917e82f8af9ef
russell over at taylor's makes a very similar knife with the traditional long bolsters:
http://www.worldknives.com/images/dynamic/products_2048_1_original.jpg

OWDTOM
25-04-11, 06:25 PM
Among other things they were used a lot on poultry farms after the War for slitting the the throats of chickens and other birds - hence the nickname.
I know Stan made a huge number during his time at John Clark's, but oddly enough none whilst with Ibberson's. He still makes them to order, but they are very few and far between.

The distinct difference between this and similar styles made mostly in the States, is the distance between the shoulder and the beginning of the clip on the blade back. The clip is deeper, slimmer and extends further back on the Robinson knife for example.
I will post something later on about the terms 'sheepfoot' and 'lambfoot'.
T

mito0
25-04-11, 06:46 PM
Among other things they were used a lot on poultry farms after the War for slitting the the throats of chickens and other birds - hence the nickname.
I know Stan made a huge number during his time at John Clark's, but oddly enough none whilst with Ibberson's. He still makes them to order, but they are very few and far between.

The distinct difference between this and similar styles made mostly in the States, is the distance between the shoulder and the beginning of the clip on the blade back. The clip is deeper, slimmer and extends further back on the Robinson knife for example.
I will post something later on about the terms 'sheepfoot' and 'lambfoot'.
T

here in the states, we call that deeper clip blade a "california clip" for some reason.

Waelwulfas
27-04-11, 04:05 PM
This looks like the thread to enquire, I bought this last week.

11cm long, horn handles, 9cm cutting edge.

It's marked JAMES RODGERS , from other threads and t'internet research I'm guessing anywhere from 1797 to about 1850? What I'm wondering is whether there was any established date/era when the mark 'Sheffield' was first introduced, all the late 19thC knives are marked so and if I remember after 1891 (?) they were also marked England. The font looks very early 19thC or before but I'm stabbing in the dark, it would be great to twirl a 200 year old knife in my hands :)


http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/waelwulfas/_DSC4907.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/waelwulfas/_DSC4906.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t275/waelwulfas/_DSC4908.jpg

Ian

mito0
27-04-11, 05:38 PM
wow, ian.
it looks like you might have a real treasure there.
unless i'm reading it incorrectly, tweedale says james rodgers started up in 1825.
only three years later, the firm became unwin & rodgers.
so - again, i may be misreading tweedale's account - it looks like this knife can be dated to a very narrow window between 1825 and 1828.
james rodgers died in 1829, only one year after the merger with philip unwin.
thanks very much for sharing!

Waelwulfas
27-04-11, 06:06 PM
That's great info, thanks, the knifes in really good condition, blade still very sharp and true, some free play, due to a mm or where the blade back has worn against the lock ing bar but it locks up safely with a good spring and is still very useable.

Ian

Captain
27-04-11, 10:51 PM
Oh yes. :D

I thought I'd stick this one up, not in the best condition but the maker has only had one mention in this thread as far as I can tell. :)

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/zorrothegreyblade/100_0423.jpg

HERBERT ROBINSON, 3 3/4 in. closed, buffalo scales.

Hi What a lovely knife I have one very like this too.
Mine is made by
J NOWILL & SONS
SHEFFIELD
ENGLAND
It has a star and crossed keys and i think a D on the second blade.
I'm not sure what the scales are made of.
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/moonraker64/Knives/P1000577.jpg
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/moonraker64/Knives/P1000578.jpg
http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad48/moonraker64/Knives/P1000582.jpg
When I got this knife I was told it was a goose keepers knife. I was informed that the main blade is shaped thus to allow the keeper to internaly (down the beak) cut the cartiod arteries and allow the blood to collect in the gut to be used in the production of pate.
It looks like it has some age to it, and a couple of nasty scratches.
would anyone be able to cast a bit of light on what sort of age this could be please?
Also would it be right to try and polish out the scratches?
Lovely to see a knife like this I love to see these old fellows.
Many thanks as always
Captain

mito0
28-04-11, 01:31 AM
the handles look like rosewood to me.
i'll leave the dating to the experts.
i enjoyed your story about the "goose keeper's" name.
i suppose it's definitely safe to say this was a knife pattern intended for killing fowl.
:)

OWDTOM
01-05-11, 08:29 PM
A trip to a new venue at Grantham Arena this morning produced just one collectiible knife - plenty of rubbish and a plethora of Military jack knives, but nothing else of interest. Not a happy wife I have to say, because apart from being a poor day we're beginning to think the A1 is jinxed on fairs days; once again we were delayed then diverted due to a massive pile-iup which still hadn't been cleared when we came home much later this afternoon.

However, seventy-four and I still get excited when I find a figural trade mark for the first time. This whittler is one such and the pictures are self explanatory.
Blade profiles, springs action, no cracks etc, everything is spot on. Dates according to the GT Directory to around the 1880's.

The mark on the master blade flat by the way shows a sleigh and the word 'Tobbogan' the letter 't' being very ornate.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img194.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img196.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img197.jpg

Iron Hoarder
01-05-11, 08:59 PM
Well worth the trip if it's one you haven't seen and in that good of shape after 130 years. At least your missus will go with you.

dkonopinski
06-05-11, 07:57 PM
I picked this one up earlier today in one of the Antique Centre on Stonegate in York. As usual they had a number of silver bladed MOP fruit knives at inflated prices, but this beautiful dowager caught my eye.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00859.jpg

Originally a Lamb's Foot, but as you can see the blade has been sharpened a time or two over the years.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00862.jpg

Tang stamped -

T TURNER & CO
CUTLERS TO
HIS MAJESTY

on one side and

ENCORE
SHEFFIELD

below the geometric figure and wavy line, that appear to be part of the trade mark, on the other side.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00860.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00861.jpg

Size guide

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/dkonopinski/Misc%20pics/DSC00863.jpg

So some help with a date would be appreciated & which Majesty it would have been. The scales are clearly bone and the liners are slightly rusted. Would they be carbon steel like the blade and what about the bolster?

Thanks in advance.

David

PS - I popped into the Antique Centre on Lendal as well. Now it's only a pretty sad few cabinets in the basement with just one guy looking after them for the owners. "Hanging on by it's teeth" was how he described the situation. However, there was a beautiful old Coachman's Knife going for £350.00 which is out of my league. No sign of a makers mark. Stag scales, 2 knife blades, a leather punch, a harness needle, a saw, a hoof pick, a corkscrew and a square section carriage door key. I think that was about it. It did have a bit of fancy work on exposed metal surfaces. I think probably German. All the springs were working and the whole piece was in pretty good shape.

alexG
07-05-11, 01:28 AM
Wonderful find David , just the sort of knife I like , a knife that has been used almost to extinction ! .

Waelwulfas
07-05-11, 11:46 AM
Ah York, a strain on my credit card everytime I visit my daughter, the James Rodgers a few posts back came from the Red House; they had a 19th century geisha dagger at £2200! I find too many old knives in those antique shops, and don't get me started on old watches....

RodgersLad
07-05-11, 01:39 PM
Hi everyone, hope you are all well.

Well here was an interesting find. I picked this up for £20 without knowing much about it and it was only when i got home that i got to have a good look at it. It is damaged of course but brilliant all the same.

It is a whittler and has an ivory main wharncliffe blade at one end and then a silver sampson mordan pencil at the other end with a penknife blade stamped thornhill. Then the really unusual thing is the brass liner is then stamped JOSEPH RODGERS & SONS Oct 4th 1841.

What I think has happened here is Rodgers has assembled a knife to be retailed at Thornhill in London and they have used a Mordan pencil also and simply stamped their markings on the liner. It was one surprise after another when i started looking at it in a better light.

Despite the snapped blade, all the tools have a great strong snap and the pearl is not cracked. I think it probably dates to a little later than 1841, this was probably just the date of the patent or registered design issue.

Andy
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8984/img8729f.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/img8729f.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

yaro5
07-05-11, 02:07 PM
I think you can categorize that one under weird and wonderful. Not seen anything like that Andy. Great find.

Joe

Iron Hoarder
07-05-11, 02:21 PM
Definitely rare as hens teeth. I think I would be tempted to send it to someone for a new blade if I could find an original replacement.

OWDTOM
07-05-11, 05:54 PM
Is the pin head at the pencil end raised and flush at the opposite end Andy?
T

RodgersLad
07-05-11, 07:07 PM
Is the pin head at the pencil end raised and flush at the opposite end Andy?
T

Yes it is, it is flush at the wharnecliffe end and slightly raised at the pencil end, what does this mean?

Andy

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 01:18 PM
Yes it is, it is flush at the wharnecliffe end and slightly raised at the pencil end, what does this mean?

Andy


It's not impossible Andy, but unlikely in the extreme for any top cutlery firm - particularly Joseph Rodgers - to have allowed mixed rivet head shapes on pins. They were either all flush or all raised i.e. domed.

All fliush pin holes on pocket/pen knives with delicate scales such as pearl have to be countersunk before assembly: thus allowing the rivet head to be formed by filling the countersink. If this didn't happen the pins would simply pull through in quicksticks - for want of a better word.

To fit a replacement blade at one end without breaking and having to discard the scales, the cutler has to ensure that the pin head is flat, mark it with a centre-punch to site his drill bit, then drill slowly through one head only using a very small drill bit. After this he taps through the remnant of the pin head and pulls it out with pliers from the opposite side. Hopefully, neither scale will have been damaged

Skilful as a cutler may be the original countersink surface area will have been mostly lost by drilling, meaning that the hole in the pearl is now wider than the wire used initially. To replace that countersink, fit the new blade and rivet up flush would result in a much wider diameter pin head being formed.

To keep the pin heads at both ends of the knife looking approximately similar in size without having to form a new countersink, it can sometimes be achieved by 'doming' the rivet over the existing hole using a special indentation on the stiddy.

What I think might have happened with your knife - and I could be totally wrong - is that it was originally Joseph Rodgers in its entirity and sometime during its early life the pen blade became damaged for some reason.

Wherever the knife happened to be at that time it was repaired by a good repairer who fitted a Thornhill blade because he didn't have a Rodgers blade of the right size. It could have been miles away from Sheffield and this often happened because people wanted their knives to be functiional rather than ornamental or future collectors items.

Since then it suffered another accident and we have what we now see.

T.

mito0
08-05-11, 02:57 PM
great find, andy.
what would be the purpose/benefit of an ivory blade?
i must say, the pencil doesn't seem to fit the slot in the handle.
is it possible that a longer tool was originally in its place?
that slot looks more like what one would expect for a nail file.

mito0
08-05-11, 03:00 PM
double post.
:(

Iron Hoarder
08-05-11, 03:06 PM
The ivory blades were for fruit if I'm not mistaken. Used instead of silver.

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 03:06 PM
great find, andy.
what would be the purpose/benefit of an ivory blade?
i must say, the pencil doesn't seem to fit the slot in the handle.
is it possible that a longer tool was originally in its place?
that slot looks more like what one would expect for a nail file.



Being a whittler he ivory blade tang is twice as thick as normal and would be for fruit. Depending on the design it could be that the SM pencil is missing its extension - but then again it might not.
T

RodgersLad
08-05-11, 03:35 PM
Thanks for that info owdtom.

I am still a little unsure because what is still unusual here is that this is the first time I have ever seen JR mark the brass liner with it's name and I am pretty sure they would not have done this if the penblade was able to house their star cross and cutlers to her majesty mark. This was obviously done because there was nowhere else to fit the name on the tool.

As Rodgers were known to design and manufacture knives for Walter thornhill, it makes perfect sense that it has a thornhill blade and this would explain perfectly why the rodgers markings are on the liner as opposed to the blade. I suppose it is possible that a thornhill blade was broken and replaced with another thornhill blade which then snapped again but I don't think thornhill stamped blades are very easy to come across, and if it is a repair, it was obviously done a very long time ago when I doubt there was much concern over what the stamp of the blade was.

I am almost certain that this knife was made by rodgers but not to be retailed by them. I have never seen the design before and it is not in any of their catalogues.

Could it be possible that this knife was assembled by rodgers without a blade (on the basis that it was to be fitted later on) and that thornhill then fixed one of their blades on it?

Mito, the pencil is missing it's extension but these are quite easy to come across, I need to find one that isn't too expensive and that fits right. Just to point out as well, it's very normal for JR to use sampson mordan pencils on their knives, this is the 4th or 5th I have seen.

Andy

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 03:52 PM
Whilst the 'original' pen blade - had it been a Rodgers blade - would have had at least the Star and Cross on the pileside tang and probably other Rodgers wording on the markside, it wouldn't have made reference to any date and obviously the date was of some importance.

What must be crucial to your investigations Andy is the significance of Rodgers marking not just the year, but a specific single day in 1841 i.e. Monday, 4th October.

I'm assuming also that the liner showing the mark is that alongside the pencil where it can be clearly seen.
T

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 04:17 PM
Whilst we're on the subject of whittlers, I picked up this very rare Joseph Rodgers four-piece champagne whittler together with the little t/shell quill at Elsecar Antiques Fair this morning.

It has to be seen at different angles in order to appresciate the unusual design, but I can't achieve this right now on the scanner.

The back springs divider tapers to nothing just past half way as it should, and the double width wire cutter, not the master blade bears on both tapered springs.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img200.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img201.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img198.jpg

mito0
08-05-11, 04:51 PM
Being a whittler he ivory blade tang is twice as thick as normal and would be for fruit. Depending on the design it could be that the S&M pencil is missing its extension - but then again it might not.
T

that makes sense.
for some reason, i would've thought ivory would be affected by acidic fruit, but clearly it's not.
good to know.

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 06:32 PM
[QUOTE=OWDTOM;1692270].

It has to be seen at different angles in order to appresciate the unusual design, but I can't achieve this right now on the scanner.
T







This is the best I can do to prop up the knife, but it still manages to lean to one side.

The left picture shows the master and pen blades falling outside the line of the wire cutter in true whittler stance and on the right the central spring divider which runs to nothing can be seen behind the corkscrew. The double spring width of the wire cutter is clearly shown also.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img203.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img204.jpg

RodgersLad
08-05-11, 10:48 PM
Whilst the 'original' pen blade - had it been a Rodgers blade - would have had at least the Star and Cross on the pileside tang and probably other Rodgers wording on the markside, it wouldn't have made reference to any date and obviously the date was of some importance.

What must be crucial to your investigations Andy is the significance of Rodgers marking not just the year, but a specific single day in 1841 i.e. Monday, 4th October.

I'm assuming also that the liner showing the mark is that alongside the pencil where it can be clearly seen.
T

Rodgers actually did mark some of their knives with the same date. Unfortunately i no longer have this knife as i passed it on because of the damage to the pearl but the front side was stamped V crown R rodgers cutlers to her majesty and the reverse was stamped JOSEPH RODGERS PAT OCT 4TH 1841. This is actually not the first occasion I have seen this date mark on a rodgers blade either but i cannot remember what the knife was like.

Because I know they did stamp some of their blades in this way, there would be no reason to put the same marks on the knife blade and then replicate them on the liner as well. This then brings me back to my reasoning that I believe they did this because when the knife was manufactured, It was never intended to have a rodgers marked blade but a retailers blade instead.

Andy


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8274/img7613k.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/img7613k.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1014/img7614zh.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/img7614zh.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

OWDTOM
08-05-11, 11:28 PM
I'll phone you tomorrow Andy. I should be able to explain my thinking better that way. The detail is becoming a little confusing.
T

dkonopinski
09-05-11, 07:51 AM
I'll phone you tomorrow Andy. I should be able to explain my thinking better that way. The detail is becoming a little confusing.
T

Please try and keep us in the loop of possible.

David

OWDTOM
09-05-11, 09:25 AM
Most certainly will David.
T

OWDTOM
09-05-11, 08:23 PM
Please try and keep us in the loop of possible.

David


Andy and I have discussed over the phone what might be termed 'misinterpretation of circumstance'; brought about all too often in written as opposed to spoken dialogue.

The misinterpretation, for want of a better word, revolved around the first mention of the liner date stamp 4th October 1841 which at that stage didn't include the word PATENT. Later in the thread Andy mentioned having previously owned a J.R. pencil knife which had been marked with the same date plus the word PATENT. Problem solved as far as my assumed 'significance' of the date was concerned.

However, at that stage I had taken this to mean that as with the first knife this one also was stamped along the inside brass liner. Not so: I now know it was stamped on the pileside of the coping blade tang.

No doubt Andy - if he hasn't already done so as I write - will add a comment or two.

Sampson Mordan's invention of the propelling pencil was no doubt seen as an ideal commercial opportunity to increase the sales for both companies and we are both of the opinion that the patent granted in 1841 to Joseph Rodgers to produce pencil knives would cover at least two different designs and possibly many more.

Whilst the vast majority of these knives would bear the Rodgers mark on the tangs of the blades, the mystery yet to be solved is why the use of a single domed pin head on the Thornhill broken blade.

Equally a mystery is that if Rodgers did if fact make knives bearing only the Thornhill mark on the tang; but of a different pattern such as the second knife above; where did they stamp their own credentials and the patent details.

The plot thickens.
T

dkonopinski
09-05-11, 08:32 PM
Thank-you Tom. I love a mystery.

David

zorro
09-05-11, 08:34 PM
Thank-you Tom. I love a mystery.

David

So do I. :)

RodgersLad
09-05-11, 11:58 PM
As, owdtom and I were discussing earlier, the main cause of the confusion lies with the blade being marked with a retailers mark which Rodgers were known to supply knives with. If the blade had been stamped wostenholm or ibberson etc, there would be no confusion as it would be plainly obvious that the blade had been replaced.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is, we will never really know what happened to the knife but maybe that's part of it's appeal anyway? Like you chaps were saying, nothing like a good mystery.

What owdtom says about the commercial opportunity to both sampson mordan and rodgers with the invention of the propelling pencil is very true and shows the wonderful enterprise that firms had back in the heyday of Victorian manufacturing.

Andy

Iron Hoarder
10-05-11, 03:07 PM
Maybe The knife was partially assembled in one place and finished off at another with the pencil and other blade. Was that style of knife offered with any other blade options that could have been picked at the shop and assembled on-site using the domed pin? Just a thought.

OWDTOM
11-05-11, 09:39 PM
I drew this for a member who feels it might also be of use to others when posting.

I would also mention if I might that the terms mark-side and pile-side remain constant no matter which side of a blade tang might be stamped (sometimes both).

With the blade point facing left and the back edge uppermost, as in this picture, you're looking at the 'mark' side. Were the point shown facing right and the back edge still at the top then that is the pile side.

I promised a few days ago to show the difference between a sheepfoot blade, a lambfoot and a Wharncliffe and I would have done that now, but my scanner is misbehaving.
T

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img206.jpg

mito0
12-05-11, 12:43 AM
excellent diagram, owdtom.
the "glossary of old sheffield trade words and dialect" gives "nicked-in swage" as an alternate term for a cut swage, and "bevel swage" for a run-in swage.
out of curiosity, does the stretch between the backsquare and tang end have a name?

OWDTOM
12-05-11, 02:19 PM
the "glossary of old sheffield trade words and dialect" gives "nicked-in swage" as an alternate term for a cut swage, and "bevel swage" for a run-in swage.
out of curiosity, does the stretch between the backsquare and tang end have a name?



Nothing as far as I know that might be the equivalent of 'ricasso' on a fixed blade - if that's the area you mean.
Sometimes that part of the tang is taken up with a double shoulder and is then called a 'step' or 'stepped' tang.
T

RodgersLad
12-05-11, 08:07 PM
That is a really helpful diagram owdtom, thanks for posting it up,

Andy

OWDTOM
12-05-11, 10:51 PM
Something here you might like to look at Andy and other members too of course; a Joseph Rodgers ivory handled, Victorian knife sharpener.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img207.jpg

OWDTOM
12-05-11, 11:29 PM
.
out of curiosity, does the stretch between the backsquare and tang end have a name?


The end of the horizontal inner surface of the back square is also the end of the tang - just in case I've misread your question,
T

dalliance
13-05-11, 05:04 PM
I thought people might like to see the reason I stumbled upon BB; namely, my late Grandad's Herbert Robinson gardening knife. He passed it on to me when I was about eight, and it was the first knife I ever owned. I've recently rediscovered it, oiled it, cleaned the blade a bit, and will sharpen it when I feel I know what I'm doing! Any further info on it would be great.

I couldn't get a decent close-up, but it says 'HERBERT ROBINSON SHEFFIELD' on one side of the base of the blade, and 'HAND FORGED' on the other.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m516/dalliance1/DSC05780.jpg

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m516/dalliance1/DSC05779.jpg

OWDTOM
13-05-11, 07:27 PM
As promised - Identificatiion.


Not a very good drawing and perhaps I should have drawn each blade separately, so fire away with any queries.

Identification problems often arise when a sheepfoot blade has been sharpened down over the years so that the distance between the back edge and cutting edge tapers sufficiently to make the blade appear to be a lambfoot.

Usually when this is the case the point tends to stand proud of the liners when closed. However, it doesn't deter some people from filing down the kick to allow the point to drop in. Luckily, most lambfoot blades are marked as such.

The Wharncliffe blade profile should rarely cause a problem.

T
http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img208.jpg

RodgersLad
13-05-11, 07:35 PM
Found this lurking in a drawer, does anyone have any idea what it is? I'm not sure if it's to do with knives, razors or smoking or what?

Front is stamped joseph rodgers sheffield and back is stamped "EVERYMAN" made in england

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2065/img8767o.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/img8767o.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

mito0
13-05-11, 08:08 PM
some sort of strop holder, perhaps?
:S

Iron Hoarder
13-05-11, 08:12 PM
I thought people might like to see the reason I stumbled upon BB; namely, my late Grandad's Herbert Robinson gardening knife. He passed it on to me when I was about eight, and it was the first knife I ever owned. I've recently rediscovered it, oiled it, cleaned the blade a bit, and will sharpen it when I feel I know what I'm doing! Any further info on it would be great.

I couldn't get a decent close-up, but it says 'HERBERT ROBINSON SHEFFIELD' on one side of the base of the blade, and 'HAND FORGED' on the other.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m516/dalliance1/DSC05780.jpg

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m516/dalliance1/DSC05779.jpg


Nice old pruner and in good shape too.

mito0
13-05-11, 08:16 PM
As promised - Identificatiion.

T


helpful as always, owdtom.
question: is there a mechanical/practical benefit to the lambfoot shape when trimming lamb's feet vs sheep's feet, or is the name more of a colloquial definition, i.e., "a lambfoot blade is just like a sheepfoot, only thinner?"

mito0
13-05-11, 08:18 PM
I thought people might like to see the reason I stumbled upon BB; namely, my late Grandad's Herbert Robinson gardening knife. He passed it on to me when I was about eight, and it was the first knife I ever owned. I've recently rediscovered it, oiled it, cleaned the blade a bit, and will sharpen it when I feel I know what I'm doing! Any further info on it would be great.


great knife with a great story and legacy.
i'll leave the story of robinson to the experts.

wellington03
14-05-11, 12:45 PM
helpful as always, owdtom.
question: is there a mechanical/practical benefit to the lambfoot shape when trimming lamb's feet vs sheep's feet, or is the name more of a colloquial definition, i.e., "a lambfoot blade is just like a sheepfoot, only thinner?"

Many thanks for adding those fine drawings and blade terminology Tom.

I guess the lambfoot blade is more of a practical shape than the sheepfoot blade for trimming a lamb's hoof as it is a slimmer and handier shape.

Not sure what that JR & S "Everyman" item is Andy ??..

Mick

wellington03
14-05-11, 12:54 PM
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/023-1-1.jpg


http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh177/wellington03/027-5-1.jpg

Here's a trade sign that once adorned the Canton Works, it measures about 18" X 7 1/2"..


Mick

RodgersLad
14-05-11, 12:59 PM
Fantastic piece of cutlery history there Mick and in very good condition! I like it very much.

Andy

dalliance
14-05-11, 02:53 PM
Very nice and it looks in fabulous condition.

OWDTOM
14-05-11, 03:20 PM
.
question: is there a mechanical/practical benefit to the lambfoot shape when trimming lamb's feet vs sheep's feet, or is the name more of a colloquial definition, i.e., "a lambfoot blade is just like a sheepfoot, only thinner?"





Of practical benefit, as Mick has said. The reduction in the blade breadth towards the point allows for better access to the interdigital cleft of the small foot of a lamb.


Just out of interest, how many members I wonder, have ever seen a blade flat stamped with the word 'Sheepfoot'?

Trade catalogues from the 60/70's stopped using the term sheepfoot blade for some reason and described them simply as straight edged blades. 'Real Lambfoot' continued unabated.
T

mito0
14-05-11, 11:53 PM
thanks, mick and owdtom.
it's not often i get to see the term "interdigital cleft" used in a sentence.
:D

dkonopinski
15-05-11, 09:27 AM
thanks, mick and owdtom.
it's not often i get to see the term "interdigital cleft" used in a sentence.
:D

I have to confess that I always thought the names were simply to do with the shape of the blade somehow, like lamb's tongue skirting boards. It never occurred to me that they related to actually working with sheep's feet. They don't call me Lightening for nothing.

David

OWDTOM
15-05-11, 02:45 PM
it's not often i get to see the term "interdigital cleft" used in a sentence.
:D

With everything going digital I thought it would sound more modern than 'twixt-toes.
T

OWDTOM
15-05-11, 03:01 PM
From Doncaster Racecourse Fair this morning:

The eight blade congress has a broken blade which seems to be par for the course these days, but it is in its original box and square-jointed throughout.
I've asked G.T. if he can throw any light on the tang marks - simply G Star W Sheffield.

The all metal two blade is totally mint and by Bennett & Heron who were on Broad Lane before they closed down.
T


http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img209.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img210.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img213.jpghttp://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/owdtom/img212.jpg

Iron Hoarder
15-05-11, 03:10 PM
That Bennett & Heron is a nice advertisement knife! I love those.

yaro5
15-05-11, 03:51 PM
I've asked G.T. if he can throw any light on the tang marks - simply G Star W Sheffield.


Tom,
Finding the unusual has become usual:) Nice find.

Joe