Forging twisted wire crane cable(Damascus)

[BLADECRAFT8]

Please can any one help I have a few questions with regard to forging using
10,0mm diameter twisted crane cable.
The steel cable I have consists of a centre twisted cable -(which surrounds a nylon type cord/string), this centre cable has a further 4 wire cables(which have no nylon cord through them) turned around the centre cable.

1.Is it necessary to remove the centre wire coil in the twisted cable that has the nylon type material inside it? prior to burning off the oil grease.or can this be burnt out when degrease de oiling the cable?.
2 . Which is the best way to burn of the oil/grease a, above a wood fire or b, above a coke burning forged fire.?

3. When the grease has been burnt off, the cable will need to be grouped to obtain sufficient billet size for the knife blade, would I need a bunch of 4off 10,0mm cables or would 2 do.Asuuming the roe will reduce considerable.

4 Finally what’s the deal with using anhydrous borax during forging, can I assume if this is not used there will be excessive scale/impurities compressed into the billet during the forge welding process?

Sorry if I have asked to many questions at once and the answers are not that straight forward but I would very much appreciate any advice :yikes: :rolleyes:

[cammoman]

That nylon core sound a bit dodgy to me,you could spend hours trying burn the inpuratitys out of it.I personally would give it a miss,you could possibly have a peice of burnt plastic in the middle of the work your trying to forge.
I once tried to forge some rope with stainless steel in it,and i found it impossilbe with my home set up.

Get some wire rope that's all steel,get the ends welded up.
And stick it on fire ,wood, coke,what ever and you will be amazed by the amount of crap that burns of it.
Then basically hammer the hell out of it,and keep your fingers crossed.
It's just a case of learning by experiance,just go for it.

[Kisu]

I'm no expert but would suggest that you either unlay the cable and remove the nylon / string core or find some all steel cable - I'm about to start playing with a piece of 20mm winch cable and plan to cut it into easily handleable lengths, remove any non steel core, degrease and give it a go. A smith I know in South Africa often unlays the individual strands and wraps with nickel wire before reassembling and forging - gives a really attractive contrast on the finished blade.

Another possible issue with the smaller diameter wires is that of decarburisation during forging i.e. the risk of burning all / most of the carbon out and ending up with a blade / billet that won't harden properly. I'm told that the bigger the wire diameter / guage the better.

[BLADECRAFT8]

Thanks, Cammoman/KISU
Ive read some more on Damascus and this confirms your advice, bigger diameter cable
which has larger diameter strands will loose less carbon.I suppose the trade off is that the larger stand size you go to the more in loss of definition of etched pattern seen in the finished blade .Do you guys use any flux such as Anhydrous Borax ( or for that matter any other flux?)to help remove impurities during the forging process (Wayne Goddard in his book The Wonder of Knife Making -mentions the use in the Damascus making section) .

[Colin KC]

Hi Bladecraft8,

I wouldn't worry too much about the nylon, it'll mostly burn out in the first couple of heats.

Use Borax on every heat after the first (not so much to remove impurities (though it does do that) but to keep the welding surfaces clean & free of oxidisation)

TWIST.

Twist that cable, & twist it some more.

Don't worry too much about carbon loss at this stage, just practice & have some fun:D

THEN find some thicker stuff (go to just about any crane hire place & ask if they've got some going inna skip, take some annealed mild steel wire & an angle grinder & cut into regular lengths (you might have to slip the old bloke (there's always one, usually Irish) a tenner to cdut 'em if you ain't got an angle grinder;))

[Colin KC]

Oh, & take some leather gloves & plastic sheeting (you know why;))

[Chris Barry]

More or less the same question was asked on another board. Here is the thread, with pics.
http://p222.ezboard.com/fprimalfiresfrm32.showMessage?topicID=135.topic

[BLADECRAFT8]

Thanks Chris BARRY/ Colin
The pictures on Hillbilly are very useful, show just how much twist has to be put into the cable to aid forging. I have saved them for reference.
I AM NOT HAVING MUCH LUCK FINDING A SUPPLIER OF anhydrous borax, so im wondering would ordinary brazzing type borax powder do? as good a job.
Thanks for the encouragement with forging Damascus will be a real challenge but the outcome really makes me want to have a try.
That monkey turning the hand operated blower made me have a double take, now I know where the phrase
" you could train a monkey etc etc to do this job"and what a great job he s doing !
Any more advice on fluxes would be of great help.
Thanks

[raykirk]

I have used the cast iron brazing flux that is mixed with some borax laundry soap, (20 mule team borax) that is available here in the states. Most any type of borax would probably work. The flux will serve the same purpose whether it is for the brazing or for forge welding. I personally wouldn't use any cable that was less than 15 mm. If you twist it and have a swage block to use, it does a good job pretty quick. The swage block keeps it from unraveling so much and rounds up the bottom of the billet.

[Colin KC]

I AM NOT HAVING MUCH LUCK FINDING A SUPPLIER OF anhydrous borax, so im wondering would ordinary brazzing type borax powder do? as good a job.


Try the search facility, it's there somewhere;)

Think it's called Hydrobor

[Colin KC]

Dehybor

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4194&highlight=anhydrous

[BLADECRAFT8]

Thanks for the extra information Colin/raykirk
Heres some more flux stuff:
Some information on forge welding fluxes, which may be of use when welding up Damascus.
1. Borax powder-can be used as flux


BORAX:
· Sodium tetraborate Na2B4O7
melts at 741°C (1,366°F)
· Sodium tetraborate, decahydrate, Borax
Na2B4O7·10H2O melts at 75°C (167°F), -8H2O, 60°C
· Sodium tetraborate, pentahydrate Na2B4O7·5H2O melts at -H2O, 120°C (248°F)
· Used for forge welding flux, brazing flux and a constituent of arc welding flux.
Also sold world wide under the trade name Solubor® as a boron fertilizer

2. To work well the borax powder must be dehydrated, i.e. remove the water content which surrounds the borax chrystals:
- What it means is that borax only needs to get 120°C (248°F) to become dehydrated e.g. it will loose the water trapped around the molecules (due to the polarity of the water molecules and the affinity that Oxygen has to electrons....)
So, to get borax that doesn't make that weird dance on the steel. Just pop it in the oven at 150°C for an hour or so and the water will go away. This will make the borax slightly faster in protecting the steel from oxygen and other harm.

3.Heres how to get the water out:
- BORAX as FLUX:
Borax is used for brazing and forge welding flux. It is applied several ways. Brazing rods are coated with it or plain. When using plain rods the end is heated and then dipped in some borax powder which sticks to the rod and begins to melt.
When forge welding it is common to sprinkle it on. Occasionally a hot piece of iron or steel is "dipped" in the can or box. Many smiths go to the trouble to forge a long handled spoon. Another method is to use a "poker" with a short bent end. The end is heated then dipped in the flux. The flux is then transferred to the part while it is still in the fire. This has the advantage of not removing the part from the fire OR sprinkling a lot of flux in the forge.
The high temperature solvent effect of borax will also dissolve refractories (such as your forge lining or fire brick), which after all, are metal oxides.

Recipe for Dehydrating Borax
1. Add one box of Borax to a 9" x 14" casserole dish.
2. Place on middle oven rack
3. Bake at 500°F (260°C)for 2-1/2 hours.
4. Let cool where your wife won't see it.

4.What not to use as a forging flux:
NOTE: Boraxo hand cleaner, is NOT the same as BORAX and does not work as flux. Welding flux may also have other substances added to it. Boron compounds such as boric acid are common additions. Flourite (flourspar) is also used for materials dificult to flux such as stainless steels. Flux grade flourite is 98% CaF2. Bladesmiths add 5 to 10% flourite to borax for forge welding stainless, nickle and chrome alloys.
Hope this info helps you guys who want to know what are the option fluxes for Damascus forge work.

[PS_Bond]

So, to get borax that doesn't make that weird dance on the steel. Just pop it in the oven at 150°C for an hour or so and some of the water will go away.

If you search, you'll find Mick Maxen's advice on making anhydrous borax. What you have left after the oven trick is partway between decahydrate & anhydrous.

Of course, anhydrous will become hydrated if left open to the atmosphere.

[Kevin]

I use Team Mule Borax straight from the (cardboard) box, as do a lot of other people I know.....I dont do anything special before use... Because of the high humidity and damp atmosphere, it becomes very hydrated ,sometimes clumps together!!!!... I break it up with a spoon :yikes: .........seems to work ok ok ..but maybe anhydrated works better...I dont know.

[PS_Bond]

I find the partially dehydrated stuff doesn't fall off the billet as readily due to the water boiling off.