Samurai sword

[rapidboy]

Just watched Kill Bill and Kill Bill 2 back to back and was wondering if anyone could recommend a good Samurai sword for bushcrafting. :D ;) :p
Will trade a used and abused WS woodlore micarta for the right sword and another six pack of Stella. :D

[Danzo]

I'm sure Paul Chen will convex grind scandi style one of his folded steel katanas if you ask nicely! You could use the wazikashi for batoning!

:D

Danzo

[lemoneyewash]

Just watched Kill Bill and Kill Bill 2 back to back and was wondering if anyone could recommend a good Samurai sword for bushcrafting. :D ;) :p
Will trade a used and abused WS woodlore micarta for the right sword and another six pack of Stella. :D

Oh rapidboy....you spend Sundays in SUCH a time honoured tradition.
After 3 hours out in the fields with a half demented lurcher (no rabbits because she's scared of them) and a house full (numbering 10) this p.m. I currently 'squif' as you do... :p :p :p

[rapidboy]

:D :D :D

[tomtom]

'course you really want to get in touch with Hattori Hanzo ;)

[Martyn]

Hey RB, great minds think alike. I now carry my WS woodie, a Leatherman Wave, but I've swapped out my GrannyB for a Hattori Hanzo Bush Katana....

http://www.britishblades.com/pics/bushkatana.jpg

That crazy 88 boy scout troup can be a handful. :D :D

[tomtom]

i dont mind sounding like a fool... and i know nothing about samurai swords..
but, is Hattori Hanzo a real sword maker or just a character?

[Martyn]

i dont mind sounding like a fool... and i know nothing about samurai swords..
but, is Hattori Hanzo a real sword maker or just a character?

He's real, that's one of his swords you see there - it was a gift from Uma Thurman. :D

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OK, ya got me, he's just a character.

[Tyr]

Tomtom you need to get your hands on some ‘70s Japanese movies. I recommend starting with something like Street Fighter and Return of the Street Fighter (not to be confused with the silly Van Damme movie). Both of these movies stared Sonny Chiba although he did not play Hattori.
Sonny Chiba played the character Hattori Hanzo in an ‘80s TV show called “Hattori Hanzo Kage no Gundan” (Shadow warriors) and that is I believe where Quentin got the idea of using Sonny Chiba to play Hattori in Kill Bill 1 and 2. Right enough about my movie collection.

Having said all that I do believe that Hattori Hanzo was supposed to be a real person, although not a maker, or purveyor of fine swords, it is said that he was a great samurai and ninja after his lord was assassinated in the latter half of the 16th century.

[Wayne D]

Having said all that I do believe that Hattori Hanzo was supposed to be a real person, although not a maker, or purveyor of fine swords, it is said that he was a great samurai and ninja after his lord was assassinated in the latter half of the 16th century.

Hattori Hanzo (1541-1596) was a member of one of the greatest Ninja families that came out of the Iga mountains, unlike many of the families of that period the Hanzo Clan weren't Watari ( for sale to the highest bidder), but were fiercely Loyal to Tokugawa Ieysau (the Shogun).

Hattori Hanzo was known for many exploits of Courage and loyalty to Tokugawa and frequent reference is made to him in connection with the Koga Ninja Taro Shiro, and the exploits they got up to in the service of the Tokugawa Shogunate these exploits earned hattori hanzo the nick names of 'the Ghost' and later ' the devil'

Hattori was an Iga Ninja but he became remembered as a Samurai due to the fact he followed the code of Bushido and also due to political manipulation of the Period.

Within Japanese culture songs are still song of Hattori Hanzo's exploits and unswerving Loyalty.

hope this answrs your question :D

[Danzo]

Hattori Hanzo (1541-1596) was a member of one of the greatest Ninja families that came out of the Iga mountains, unlike many of the families of that period the Hanzo Clan weren't Watari ( for sale to the highest bidder), but were fiercely Loyal to Tokugawa Ieysau (the Shogun).

Hattori Hanzo was known for many exploits of Courage and loyalty to Tokugawa and frequent reference is made to him in connection with the Koga Ninja Taro Shiro, and the exploits they got up to in the service of the Tokugawa Shogunate these exploits earned hattori hanzo the nick names of 'the Ghost' and later ' the devil'

Hattori was an Iga Ninja but he became remembered as a Samurai due to the fact he followed the code of Bushido and also due to political manipulation of the Period.

Within Japanese culture songs are still song of Hattori Hanzo's exploits and unswerving Loyalty.

hope this answrs your question :D

Blimey, he's a Ninja Witch!

:yikes:

I bet Ninjawitch supported Saxon and Girlschool in Doncaster in 1981!

:D

Danzo

[tomtom]

just though i would dig this up as i forgot about it :yikes:

thanks for the info there wayne.. is there any reading you can recomend on that kind of history..

who are the famous/good sword makers currently.. i have heard only of paul chen though i understand he is not japanise!

[Martyn]

just though i would dig this up as i forgot about it :yikes:

thanks for the info there wayne.. is there any reading you can recomend on that kind of history..

who are the famous/good sword makers currently.. i have heard only of paul chen though i understand he is not japanise!


Paul Chen is Chinese, he (or rather his factory) makes affordable, good quality reproductions of live Japanese blades. They are good, but for the most part, are not anywhere near the quality of a sword from a Japanese master. But then they only cost about 10% of the japanese equivalent.

Chen does make some better quality swords, most of which end up in the hands of http://www.bugei.com/ - but even these "high end" Chens dont live up to a good Japanese blade (or so the experts say).

[tomtom]

thanks martyn, are there any proper japanese.. working in a small charcoal forge.. doing it all by hand.. lwhith a long beard making turning out the best sword in the world? you know what i mean ;) , whos the grand master, or have the skills died out?

[ggfh666]

There are still quite few blacksmiths left. Not thousands as in the past but at least dozens. You can get a real japanese blade for about £5000 and up to ... much more.
If it is to be used for cutting I wouldn't get one that expensive though, you would tremble so much in fear of damaging such an expensive item that your cutting will be worthless;-) I think you're better off buying one of ninecircles or paul chen or some other reseller. They will do the job just as good.

[ZDP-189]

I'm handling my new Paul Chen Practical Plus right now. It arrived today. The fittings are much better than I'd expect on a sub £100 sword, and the blade is awesome. So sharp it actually frightens me.

I'd have paid ten times that for a Japonese sword of similar quality. Yesterday, I handled a friend's katana (Mr Han, a top Korean swordmaster). It was so slick, it felt like it was on bearings as it left the saya. The fittings were the same basic style as the Practical Plus, but the blade was something else! Of course, that sword was easily £5,000 plus.

Another thing I was told is that the Simon Criswell katanas look great but are 'difficult' to cut with. It seems the deep hollow grind has a tendency to scoop rather than cut straight. And those were the words of a man who'd been practicing tamashigiri for longer than I've been alive.

[Basemetal]

For anyone who knows...do Japanese swords' edges withstand real swordplay without damage....or is significant "maintenance" required. I appreciate that with skill the sword might not actually come in contact with another sword all that often...but I've always wondered about the legendary sharpness versus the strength of the edge (not the blade as a whole, but specifically the cutting edge) .
:bandit:

[Danzo]

For anyone who knows...do Japanese swords' edges withstand real swordplay without damage....or is significant "maintenance" required. I appreciate that with skill the sword might not actually come in contact with another sword all that often...but I've always wondered about the legendary sharpness versus the strength of the edge (not the blade as a whole, but specifically the cutting edge) .
:bandit:

I don't know the truth about Japanese swords, but that is why the Vikings and Saxons tended to fight with an axe or seax. A sword was simply too valuable to risk in most real battlefield combat.

:noggin:

Danzo

[Andy]

the royal armeries has a load of katanas with chips all along the blade. I'm guessing thats from other swords hitting them

[Martyn]

For anyone who knows...do Japanese swords' edges withstand real swordplay without damage....or is significant "maintenance" required. I appreciate that with skill the sword might not actually come in contact with another sword all that often...but I've always wondered about the legendary sharpness versus the strength of the edge (not the blade as a whole, but specifically the cutting edge) .
:bandit:

The idea is not to "fence" with Japanese swords, but to kill your enemy as quickly as possible (from the draw if you can manage it). The sword is just metal, like any other metal and edge to edge contact will damage the edge. If you absolutely have to parry, then the flat of the blade was used, rather than the edge. Edge on edge contact was avoided at all costs.

[ggfh666]

I don't know the truth about Japanese swords, but that is why the Vikings and Saxons tended to fight with an axe or seax. A sword was simply too valuable to risk in most real battlefield combat.

:noggin:

Danzo

On Japanese battlefields they used a lot of pikes and spears, just like it was done in Europe. The sword was used when the distance was too short to use pikes.
The earliest battles were even fought with bow and arrow in some kind of ritualised manner avoiding mass killing, and if that failed to kill one of the two , a sword may have been used.
I think there is also the psychological aspect that you have to be a real nutter to get close enough to fight with a sword. Looking the enemy in the eye is no fun.

As far as I have seen up to now in Iaido, there is no kata where you are supposed to block a sword with the sharp side. Even a hard block looks quite unusable. It's more gliding off blocking( sorry for the strange phrasing). But I'm just a beginning beginner, so please excuse me if I'm wrong

[Basemetal]

Thanks for responses so far...
I was thinking about the leading edge of the attacking sword -whether blocked by the flat or the back of the defending sword. I don't want to talk about the fighting as such, I just have a metallurgical interest in the mechanical properties of these edges.

The traditional Japanese sword was a product of extraordinary workmanship in finishing the blade. I have no real knowledge of its attributes and characteristics as a blade as opposed to "as a weapon". So was it a high maintenance item or did it have extreme mechanical properties?
:bandit:

[Wayne D]

ggfh666: As far as I have seen up to now in Iaido, there is no kata where you are supposed to block a sword with the sharp side. Even a hard block looks quite unusable. It's more gliding off blocking( sorry for the strange phrasing). But I'm just a beginning beginner, so please excuse me if I'm wrong



basemetal: The traditional Japanese sword was a product of extraordinary workmanship in finishing the blade. I have no real knowledge of its attributes and characteristics as a blade as opposed to "as a weapon". So was it a high maintenance item or did it have extreme mechanical properties?


Although I know that we dont discuss weapon fighting here onthe group but I think that this has relevance to both the above comments?

I trained with the Katana firstly in 'traditional' Jiu Jutsu with my Father as a child and a few years ago in Kenpo Jiu Jutsu. So all my experience with the Katana has been training for a Combatant situation.
'ggfh666' is quite correct when he says that most of the blocks are ' gliding off blocking' , they are more of a deflecting parry using the flat of the blade - the idea is to keep the opponent blade moving to enable you to create a large enough opening to get your own blade through; but, there are a few exceptions to the rule and here we overlap with 'basemetals' question about extreme mechanical properties!

there are a number of 'blocks' that actualy use the cutting edge of the Katana being brought down on the spine of the opponents blade and I remember as a child seeing one of these techniques demonstrated. when my Fathers Master (Master Kam hok Oh of the The Penang Institute of Jiu Jutsu), blocked a rising block with his blade and sheared straight through the blade of his opponents Katana about 16" from the Tsuba.

I remember as a child that Master Kams Katana was beautiful and seemed to shimmer with light when ever he used it, all I actualy know about it was that it was old and no one else was allowed to touch it other than him!

[Wayne D]

thanks for the info there wayne.. is there any reading you can recomend on that kind of history..

There are a few Historical books around on these subjects look for anything by 'Steven K. Hayes', 'James Noriega' or finaly the current grandmaster of the Togakure Ryu 'Masaaki Hatsumi' .

All three are are high ranking Masters in their Ryu and are well researched Historians in their own fields.

[tomtom]

what an emensly interesting subject! very glad to be around such knolageable people.. any good websites.. to look at shops.. or info ones?

[Wayne D]

any good websites.. to look at shops.. or info ones?

there are a few good site around, I will 'dig out' some Url's for you ad psot them when I get the chance. :)

[tomtom]

your a gent.. i love to learn!

[Martyn]

Thanks for responses so far...
I was thinking about the leading edge of the attacking sword -whether blocked by the flat or the back of the defending sword. I don't want to talk about the fighting as such, I just have a metallurgical interest in the mechanical properties of these edges.

The traditional Japanese sword was a product of extraordinary workmanship in finishing the blade. I have no real knowledge of its attributes and characteristics as a blade as opposed to "as a weapon". So was it a high maintenance item or did it have extreme mechanical properties?
:bandit:

I think as much of the "magic" come from the polish a sword is given, as well as the smithing that goes into it. I also think part of the reason these swords are so legendary is the techniques used to make them, produced a finely crafted object of extrordinary quality and beauty, far ahead of it's time. A thousand years ago, most steel was pretty crappy at best. But the Japanese started to develop methods of refining very high quality steel in small scale forges and shops. By 1500 AD, they mastered the art of smelting the steel from a sandy ore, heat treatment and blade geometry were perfected. They had refined it into a science. The complex sandwitches of steel and differential hardening, combined with exhaustive, labourious and precise polishing & sharpening, resulted in a blade that must have looked and performed like it was from outer space compared to some of it's lesser contempraries. It's not suprising that they developed a legendary, almost mystical quality.

However, that was half a millenium ago. Today we have far purer steels available on a mass market basis, that's 90% of the battle won. Where the Japanese excell today, is not so much blade composition or smithing, many western smiths are equally as competant, but it's the blade polishing. That is still an art that you'd really have to go to Japan to find. The polisher is the guy who puts the balance in the blade and brings the edge out.

After all is said though, if you take any japanese sword and whack it onto something hard, it'll chip and dink. It's just sharp carbon steel when all is said and done.

If you havent seen it yet, watch this really superb video (http://www.channelj.co.jp/e/intro/topintro.htm) on Japanese blade polishing.

Not sure where I read it, I think it was in "The Samurai Sword" by J. M. Yumoto, ....that a swordsmith would produce on average, one blade per year. Of course, there were a lot of swordsmiths over a long period of time, which accounts for the estimation of several million swords in existance.

[ZDP-189]

For anyone who knows...do Japanese swords' edges withstand real swordplay without damage....or is significant "maintenance" required. I appreciate that with skill the sword might not actually come in contact with another sword all that often...but I've always wondered about the legendary sharpness versus the strength of the edge (not the blade as a whole, but specifically the cutting edge) .
:bandit:

As Martyn, ggfh666 and the others have ably pointed out, you're not meant to whack them into each other, trees, or other materials dissimilar in nature and consistency from their 'traditional' targets. It's just not how they were originally used or intended.

They do, however excel at cutting straw mat rolls and bamboo with little or no dammage.

[Dave Barker]

For anyone who knows...do Japanese swords' edges withstand real swordplay without damage....or is significant "maintenance" required. I appreciate that with skill the sword might not actually come in contact with another sword all that often...but I've always wondered about the legendary sharpness versus the strength of the edge (not the blade as a whole, but specifically the cutting edge) .
:bandit:


dan Mushi sushi posted this link a while ago. it had to do with the myth of the japanese sword (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?eo20031229hs.htm)

I found it actually fascinating.

For those that want to read about the methods of blocking and cutting of the sword may I suggest that you read a copy of the BOOK OF FVE RINGS by Musashi? If you don't want to study it deeply then you will still get something from it i am sure.

[Basemetal]

Guys,
Thanks for the great answers and the lengthy posts. Really apreciate the info. Fascinating story Wayne! I'm off to watch the video now.
Great stuff!
Danny

[Herr_Mingus]

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/resgrp/amrg/steel.htm
http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/resgrp/amrg/HBStallybrass.htm

these are good articles on some dark age steel finds made in england.

Its starting to appear that the early medieval peoples were capable of making some shockingly good steel , unfortunatly most iron/steel items that are found are never metalurgicly (spelling) tested and are simply classified "Iron knife" "iron chisels" ect. It appears that mainstream archeologists would rather be ignorant of these findings as it upsets the belived history of the evolution of steel production.

[Kohei]

For some fantastic looking blades, go to Aoi Arts, Japan (http://www.aoi-art.com)

Some of these pieces will have you drooling!!

Enjoy!!

Cheers, Kohei
:biggthump

[Wayne D]

For those that want to read about the methods of blocking and cutting of the sword may I suggest that you read a copy of the BOOK OF FVE RINGS by Musashi? If you don't want to study it deeply then you will still get something from it i am sure.


A cheap version is available form Shambhala publications it is a 'newer' translation by Thomas Cleary (published 1993) and includes a translation of 'family Traditions on the Art of war' by Yagyu Munenori

It's ISBN : 0-87773-868-8
US price $9.00

Ordered through Waterstones it costs £6.95

[sirupate]

Hello Everyone,

Personally I don't think you can beat a good quality katana/tachi and their old Bujutsu techniques for their durability as a blade and for their battlefield techniques :D
Just purchased this katana for practise from Aoi-Arts Japan, a very good Japanese sword site.

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-10-27_105058_katana_pics_001.jpg

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-10-27_105115_katana_pics_002.jpg

It was made in 1977 by Minamoto Morishige, blade length 77.2cm, sori 2.4cm,
Hamon is Gunome-midare with ashi and it has a lovely blackish itame hada. It is a superb sword for both Kenjutsu and Iai jutsu practise. However for the run of the mill training I use the Cold Steel Katana's, because I don't have to worry about scratches etc. from trying to perfect my cutting abilty, some of my students use the Paul Chen variants as they like a hamon and I am considereing swords for practise from another company called Thai Suki that look quite promising :D .

Cheers Simon

[tomtom]

what was the address for that site then.. i cant find it!

[Danzo]

For some fantastic looking blades, go to Aoi Arts, Japan (http://www.aoi-art.com)

Some of these pieces will have you drooling!!

Enjoy!!

Cheers, Kohei

:biggthump

Hi Kohei

That is a great link! Many thanks. Simon mentioned in his later post about Thai Suki. I have been thinking about ordering from them for a while but for a Thai/Burmese 'Dha' rather than a Japanese blade. These were available on their site when I was in Thailand but not now from the UK and the one phone call I made wasn't too productive........

Any ideas?

:thanks:

Danzo

[narsil]

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/resgrp/amrg/steel.htm
http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/resgrp/amrg/HBStallybrass.htm

these are good articles on some dark age steel finds made in england.

Its starting to appear that the early medieval peoples were capable of making some shockingly good steel , unfortunatly most iron/steel items that are found are never metalurgicly (spelling) tested and are simply classified "Iron knife" "iron chisels" ect. It appears that mainstream archeologists would rather be ignorant of these findings as it upsets the belived history of the evolution of steel production.

Yeah, its a pity that european blade making dosen't get the same recognition that the far eastern tradition does.

[Kohei]

Hi Kohei

That is a great link! Many thanks. Simon mentioned in his later post about Thai Suki. I have been thinking about ordering from them for a while but for a Thai/Burmese 'Dha' rather than a Japanese blade. These were available on their site when I was in Thailand but not now from the UK and the one phone call I made wasn't too productive........

Any ideas?

:thanks:

Danzo

Hi Dan,

We have the name & number of the UK Rep. Leave it with me & Simon, we'll see what we can find out for you.

Cheers

Kohei

[Kohei]

what was the address for that site then.. i cant find it!

I can't find it either at the moment. Will post the web address once I get home and find the brochure!! (I'm at work at the mo.... best get back to working I guess)!!! :rolleyes:

Cheers Kohei ;)

[Kohei]

Heres the link for thaitsuki, Thaitsuki (http://www.thaitsuki.co.uk/)

Cheers, Kohei ;)

[Danzo]

Thanks Kohei



:smlove2:



Danzo

[tomtom]

wow.. those look amazing!
Thanks :240:

[ZDP-189]

What a link! And cheap as a basic Paul Chen too!

[tomtom]

are they made in Japan?

[Kohei]

Hi Danzo,

No luck with the Thai/Burmese Dha from Thaitsuki i'm afraid. It seems they are currently not available as they are concentrating on the Katana range.

On another note, simon's pics in his posts above have temporarily dissappeared as our website is down (server probs or something!!), they'll reappear when the site is back up..... hopefully!!!

Cheers,
Kohei ;)

[Danzo]

Hi Danzo,

No luck with the Thai/Burmese Dha from Thaitsuki i'm afraid. It seems they are currently not available as they are concentrating on the Katana range.

On another note, simon's pics in his posts above have temporarily dissappeared as our website is down (server probs or something!!), they'll reappear when the site is back up..... hopefully!!!

Cheers,
Kohei ;)

Thanks for trying Leanne, I appreciate it. I have an 'antique' dha (old blade, more recent fittings) with a two foot plus blade, bought in a small town on the Thai/Burmese border.

I love the dynamics of the piece. It is very fast and yet turns to two handed mode very easily as it has a ten inch handle.

:approve:

I was hoping for a 'practical katana' version of it.

Ah well!

;)

Danzo

[Buttercup]

Mrs B has been watching Mind Body and Kick Ass Moves hosted by a strange brummie type person who likes to get whacked by small Japanese men with samuri swords. It's such fun! :yikes:
I too must have a samuri sword to whack any unsuspecting brummies who pass by. Who needs Chi when you're weilding something sharp the size of a tree and squealing out such phrases as "whoooeeeerrrruuuoooowwwwnnngggyyyaaaaaahhhhhh"! I wouldn't need the Gul bunny to make me "run away, run away"!
Just had a look at Aoi-Art website and note that they will accept returns if you don't like what you bought. I assume they only accept the return of unused items? What is it about these swords that is both fascinating and utterly terrifying? Beautiful yes, but there is no doubt about their origins and the reason for their creation - death of the final kind. So why are they still being made and what kind of person wants to own one? I like to look at them...through a TV screen and that's about as close as I'd want to get to one. It says a lot that the Aori-Art website gives detailed instructions about how to take them out of their sheath without decapitating yourself. I'll look forward to seeing all knife makers including these essential instructions with all new knives. Mr Buttercup has a fit every time I pick up a dull paring knife....

[wozzy42]

The best site i have found aobut the actual swords is:

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

But be warned it gets very involved very quickly.

[Wayne D]

So why are they still being made and what kind of person wants to own one? I like to look at them...through a TV screen and that's about as close as I'd want to get to one

You could ask the same question of Longbows and linene Yard shafted arrows! they are beautiful to look at and to hold.

And with the correct training there are few instances in Life that match that feeling that comes when you perform a 'Kata' or 'cutting series' correctly, without flaw and without thought.

and when the ultimate sought after moment comes when there is no difference between the Katana and your body, there is no sense of seperation , the Katana is an extension of your body and you are part of it.

Then there is total Tranquility and peace , I have only achieved this a handful of times in the last 20 or so years , but it is a place to strive for and when it is achived it has no comparison to any other feeling on Earth.

So I am one of those people who would want to own one.

[PS_Bond]

Oddly, I was able to get that without a live blade - a bokken would work for me. Just aikido kata, not strictly a sword discipline at all, but being able to visualise as you worked through it was an exercise in focus.

I never felt the bokken to be an extension of me as such - it had to be *here* and consequently I had to move through a series of moves to follow it properly.

Of course, mebbe I was doing it wrong ;)

[Dave Barker]

You could ask the same question of Longbows and linene Yard shafted arrows! they are beautiful to look at and to hold.

And with the correct training there are few instances in Life that match that feeling that comes when you perform a 'Kata' or 'cutting series' correctly, without flaw and without thought.

and when the ultimate sought after moment comes when there is no difference between the Katana and your body, there is no sense of seperation , the Katana is an extension of your body and you are part of it.

Then there is total Tranquility and peace , I have only achieved this a handful of times in the last 20 or so years , but it is a place to strive for and when it is achived it has no comparison to any other feeling on Earth.

So I am one of those people who would want to own one.

known as kenshin in japenese ( amongst other things) mind and body in harmony with no thought' off topic but in a way relevant?

[boaty]

Still off-topic, but that's the feeling I get rowing - most often when I'm alone in my sculling boat, but it has happened in the eight when we seem not to be a group of individuals, but a single organism focused on hurling the boat down the course at break-neck speed

[Dave Barker]

Still off-topic, but that's the feeling I get rowing - most often when I'm alone in my sculling boat, but it has happened in the eight when we seem not to be a group of individuals, but a single organism focused on hurling the boat down the course at break-neck speed

Called the state of no mind. The state or void or emptiness.

things happen by reaction and after they are finished you remember nothing. rather like driving a car and not thinking abut how you steer but let it happen naturally.

[Basemetal]

Called the state of no mind. The state or void or emptiness.

things happen by reaction and after they are finished you remember nothing. rather like driving a car and not thinking abut how you steer but let it happen naturally.

Zen and the Art of Careering off Blind Bends? :p

seriously though, for me it would be something of the same attraction as knives I'm not really going to use, but with a very strong aesthetic appreciation. Beauty, History, Tradition, Romance, skill, and that sense of...not danger exactly but...power maybe?

OT: Buttercup picked up a book for me once on Bokken. It had stories in it of instances where the bokken was used as a weapon in its own right in Japanese history even by swordmasters -one effect was to make the sword weilding opponent over-confident. Must look it out again.

:bandit:

[Dave Barker]

Zen and the Art of Careering off Blind Bends? :p


OT: Buttercup picked up a book for me once on Bokken. It had stories in it of instances where the bokken was used as a weapon in its own right in Japanese history even by swordmasters -one effect was to make the sword weilding opponent over-confident. Must look it out again.

:bandit:

Suggest you read mushashi and the book of the 5 rings. He often used just a bokken or similar.

[dave750gixer]

Oddly, I was able to get that without a live blade - a bokken would work for me. Just aikido kata, not strictly a sword discipline at all, but being able to visualise as you worked through it was an exercise in focus.

I never felt the bokken to be an extension of me as such - it had to be *here* and consequently I had to move through a series of moves to follow it properly.

Of course, mebbe I was doing it wrong ;)

I found that it was much easier (for me anyway) the get this feeling with a live blade than with a bokken (kenjutsu and aikijutsu). There is just something about the live blade that helps focus compared to using a bokken. Of course maybe if I was a better swordsman then the prop would be less important and I would be equally at home with the bokken. Interesting philosphical question.

[sirupate]

Hello Everyone,

Whilst I appreciate the bokken for partner drills and as a good way to get beginers into studying Kenjutsu and Batto, I have found that once they have a live blade in their hands the cuts and blocks make much more sense to them.
Also from my own personel point of view there is nothing quite like handling a traditionally made Japanese sword. I can't tell you why, I don't know whether its the beauty of the hamon or the hada, or possibly because it is just Japanese and has some link to the Samurai's past, but it just feels right :)

Cheers Simon

[Wayne D]

but it just feels right


I second that emotion :D

[Buttercup]

It's so unfair...I wrote a looooooonnnggggg message here and the mean message eater lurking inside British Blades gobbled it up and spat it into the ether saying "you are not logged in" :yikes: "your message is too poor to be aired" :( "hide your head in shame and try again" :crying: "Buttercup shutupcup". :tapedshut Has this happened to you? Anyone got a samurai sword handy, there's a bug in here needs a telling...
Wit and fun to follow when I find the strength to go on. sigh.
One wilted flower.

[Buttercup]

You could ask the same question of Longbows and linene Yard shafted arrows! they are beautiful to look at and to hold.

This is utterly fascinating! Please help me because I really want to understand this. Are you saying that there is no difference between the appreciation of the beauty and feel of longbows and arrows as opposed to the samurai sword? Does this negate the “specialness” of the Samurai against other weapons (or even works of art) – even other blades (wash my mouth out with soap!!! :yikes: ) ?

"And with the correct training there are few instances in Life that match that feeling that comes when you perform a 'Kata' or 'cutting series' correctly, without flaw and without thought."

Now we are moving into real Samurai territory. There seems to be a “feeling” involved with the sword that involves perfection and flawlessness. Is that due to the sword – this very special sword – or could I get the same feeling rowing or washing the dishes (hey, I’ve tried everything to make those suds interesting but so far failed miserably! You can’t blame me if I don’t feel at one with that caked on food… :sigh: ). Silly suds aside though, it seems bokken and oars still do it for some, so what’s so great about a samurai sword (not meant in any derogatory way).

"and when the ultimate sought after moment comes when there is no difference between the Katana and your body, there is no sense of seperation , the Katana is an extension of your body and you are part of it."

Momma! Spine went all tingly on that one! Sorry if I momentarily saw you as that Terminator guy with swords for arms (well, he was kind of cool don’t you think? And boy could he run…forever…). :rotfl:

"Then there is total Tranquility and peace , I have only achieved this a handful of times in the last 20 or so years , but it is a place to strive for and when it is achived it has no comparison to any other feeling on Earth."

Hmmmm….this is metaphysical innit? Tranquility, peace, no other feeling on Earth (well you’ve obviously not eaten enough chocolate :yumyum: but I guess you are a guy after all). So are you saying that there is something special, mystical, transcendent about a samurai sword itself, or, are you saying that in the hands of a master, this is a weapon above all others? What I am trying to get at is: what makes this one and only sword the object of your very obvious reverence, respect and spurs you on to higher achievement in the art of whacking it about? Where does that leave a frail buttercup who is never going to pick one up (without heart failure) and must admire from afar? I find these amazing swords – perhaps I should be asking myself why?

So I am one of those people who would want to own one.

Yeah, me too… ;)

[sirupate]

Hello Buttercup,

I think it is generally considered that the Best Japanese swords are probably the best swords ever produced ;) , for durability and cutting power, they are also very good for thrusting as well.
The result of the Japanese taking Chinese and Korean forging techniques and improving on them, has not only (the shinogi and sori being developed in the Hein period) produced a very formidable sword but also a very beautifull weapon. The Tachi was also the first truly offensive and defensive sword, which made it a winner against the Mongols, Koreans and Chinese equivelents of that period, also later on the when the Americans, English and Portugese sailors came to Japan, they were more than impressed by the Japanese katana (worth reading Will Adams adentures in Japan).
Through the ages the Samurai produced possibly the best battlefield sword techniques in the World (Ref;Royal Armories UK), reaching a peak in the 16th.century and then going into decline from a general Samurai point of view.
When I practise kata with the Japanese sword I try to visualise the battle the techniques they were designed for and practice with the Samurai spirit of Gempai and Kamakura times. Very occasionally I feel i get right and it gives me a terrific amount of satisfaction, enhanced by using a real Japanese sword from time to time (for general practice I use a Cold Steel blade).

Here are some pics of the Japanese sword I use;

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-12-09_183605_sword_up.jpg

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-12-09_183626_sword_flat.jpg

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-12-09_183644_sword_edge_up.jpg

http://www.toratoratora.co.uk/forum/uploads/Sirupate/2004-12-09_183659_sword_habaki.jpg

I hope I have helped with my own point of view, Cheers Simon

[Buttercup]

:thanks:

Thanks so much for the update!

I really must have a closer look at the forging techniques. Did the foreign visitors/invaders ever take up the forging techniques of these swords or was that a well kept secret? :27:

“Through the ages the Samurai produced possibly the best battlefield sword techniques in the World”

If these were battlefield swords, that suggests that every man pressed into service or aligned to a fighting force knew how to use them with skill – that must have taken some years of study. With very few masters around still practising it sure doesn’t seem like a weekend hobby.

“When I practise kata with the Japanese sword I try to visualise the battle the techniques they were designed for and practice with the Samurai spirit of Gempai and Kamakura times.”

I’m amazed that the battle techniques from so long ago are still known – is this part of the tradition handed down?

Thanks so much for the pictures. All I can say is “Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh” :biggthump

I’m starting to understand how the blade bug bites! :sword:

[sirupate]

Hello Buttercap,

The forging techniques were a well kept secrect, at one time the biggest export that Japan had to China was their swords. Most Japanese swords that were produced were not of the best quality, simply because most Samurai could not afford a good blade and also most Samurai were not that good at Kenjutsu. To put it into perspective, around 5% were pretty good, about 5% of them were very good and probably about 1% of them were excellent.
The Japanese have a history of passing on their knowledge to a senior student, the only problem with that method was that if the Sensei or senior student died before their knowledge was passed on, it was all lost :(
Luckilly some of the old schools (Bujutsu Ryu, not Budo Ryu) are still around teaching sword as it used to be taught :D
However Formats have to change with times, so each way has its place, depending on what one wants.

Cheers Simon

[Buttercup]

thanks again Simon!
Do you have a pragmatic view yourself about the use of these swords, either today (a craft perfected) or yesteryear (a weapon extraordinaire) or do you subscribe to the spiritual side of your swordcraft? Is the experience you describe of peace and tranquility a byproduct of the pleasure of achievement in the art, or is there something more to it? I am ignorant about this side of things and can only muse at what I see in the Hollywood version of events, or the martial arts programs like "Kick Ass" - you seem to know your stuff firsthand - it would be great to hear more about it.
Your latest fan,
Buttercup

[Colin KC]

Suggest you read mushashi and the book of the 5 rings. He often used just a bokken or similar.


Musashi used a bokken often to teach manners to "upstarts"

[Colin KC]

if the Sensei or senior student died before their knowledge was passed on, it was all lost


& in some instances, if the Sensei stumbled, or encountered & obstacle & improvised, it became part of that schools teaching:yikes:


Lets hear it for the Japanese art of copying;)

[Raoul Duke]

Forget everything you have seen, or heard. Who needs all this traditional mumbo jumbo when you can buy a modern peice of kit?

Check out the Link below. This is what you need for a good quality Katana at very reasonable prices.
(let the whole video load up first, buy pressing the pause button when the vid screen opens) before you watch it.

Top Quality Katanas (http://www.ramanon.com/videos/_Knives.mpeg)

Warning! Some 'might' have a small QC problem with them but i'm sure that on the whole they are fine.:D

[Wayne D]

Forget everything you have seen, or heard. Who needs all this traditional mumbo jumbo when you can buy a modern peice of kit?

I too have a 440 stainless Katana bought for me as an 18th birthday present from my father and it cost him £165, so it wasn't a cheapie!

Unfortunately that's all I have left after my Japanese made Katana was stolen in a burglary in 1995, as I wasn't insured I was unable to replace it.

I bought my Japanese Katana in an Auction at Sothbys in 1989 whilst working in London. Sotheby's was running a 'Japanese' Auction with Screens, Kimono's, Weaponry etc all being auctioned.

My Katana was made in 1780 , so made in the period of decline that Sirupate mentioned; IT cost me £2,800 and was one of the lower sold prices , Why? because all the other big bids were for fancy ornate Katana and the one I bid for was a plain black lacquer scabbard with black iron tsuba, black silk handle wrappings and silver menuki.

It was my pride and joy and practicing with that Katana made the air sing. It was light, perfectly balanced and felt effortless in it's movement, It also lived on the same stand as my 440 S/S Katana.

In comaprison my 440 Katana is heavy doesn't balance as well , and takes more effort to move within Kata.

So between the 2 there is no comparison, and if I had the money I would be hunting another Japanese Katana.

And I'm sorry but anyone who has worked with a truely well forged Japanese Katana will also tell you there is no comparison!

[Wayne D]

ssssooorrryyy!
Just watched the clip hadn't realised you were being sarcastic :o

the funny thing is I have one of them :o it cost me £3 from E-bay and the Scabbard is made from 2 pieces of hardboard, bound with what looks like nicker elastic!

[-Oz-]

Top Quality Katanas (http://www.ramanon.com/videos/_Knives.mpeg)

Warning! Some 'might' have a small QC problem with them but i'm sure that on the whole they are fine.:D


:rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:

[sirupate]

Hello Buttercup,

The Japanese sword for me is first a weapon of excellence and secondly it gives me a different discipline to my other martial studies, both mentally and physically and this is what I find with my students as well. Although I have had to change the way it would be taught in a formal Ryu, to fit in with the other stuff we do.
The Bokken seems to be mentioned a bit, basically the Bokken (in Musashi's day Bokuto) was a training aid. However bokutos were often used in taryu-jiai (duels) so that the looser would not be mortally wounded. The use of tsumeru (pulling the technique) was vital in these fights and Musashi was renowned for his skill of tsumeru.
Had Bokuto been anywhere near as effective as a katana in general combat, you can be rest assured that the much cheaper bokuto would have quickly replaced the much more expensive Katana/tachi.

Wayne, excellent swords have been made throughout Japanese history and some of the stuff been made now is truly outstanding.
Love the advert Raoul :D

Cheers Simon

[Danzo]

thanks again Simon!
Do you have a pragmatic view yourself about the use of these swords, either today (a craft perfected) or yesteryear (a weapon extraordinaire) or do you subscribe to the spiritual side of your swordcraft? Is the experience you describe of peace and tranquility a byproduct of the pleasure of achievement in the art, or is there something more to it? I am ignorant about this side of things and can only muse at what I see in the Hollywood version of events, or the martial arts programs like "Kick Ass" - you seem to know your stuff firsthand - it would be great to hear more about it.
Your latest fan,
Buttercup

Hi Buttercup

Is there a pragmatism about the use of any sword? I'm listening as write to question time on Radio 4 and I've heard a poor stupid american girl and a couple of brits......

Danzo

[Buttercup]

Hi Buttercup

Is there a pragmatism about the use of any sword? I'm listening as write to question time on Radio 4 and I've heard a poor stupid american girl and a couple of brits......

Danzo


Hey Danzo, how did you know I was being interviewed on Radio 4?

I know I don't alway tock too good inglish and that the way I shood. Wot I did meen woz...(I think :confused: ) if you are being pragmatic and stuff, you are doing your sword studies for the purposes of being an expert sword handler, perfect in a "sport" if you will, a master slicer and carver, keeper of the old traditions, slicer of the Christmas turkey? :sword:

Akin to those amazing flying knives in Japanese restaurants where the chaps can throw a whole cow in the air and fillet it into 27 different cuts of meat before it lands in front of you on the grill? The world would be a poorer place without them! :sigh:

Or perhaps you have heard of the killer cabbage? :eek:
These nasty vegetables have been known to attack with vicious intent and must be dealt with summarily!
One whoosh! and OFF with it's head! I'd want to be prepared if I met one in the dark...

You are a good guy and I'm really trying to get to the bottom of what makes a samurai sword the bee above all knees. Is it the joy of mastering a difficult instrument (like being the best archer, or an expert bushman)? the preservation of a tradition nearly lost on ancient battlefields? is it romance? or.... is there something mystical in the whole experience - a belief system that elevates the use of this sword from a mere piece of gorgeous metal, to a tour de force?

Many thanks for sticking with this....
Buttercup :thanks:
__________________

[Danzo]

I thank you for the compliments Buttercup,

I think that the understanding of the Japanese sword in the male psyche comes down to simplicity of purpose combined with totality of purpose, delivered with absolute faith in oneself.

We admire the design and construction of the sword. We would like to be able to make one but we can't. However good we become at making knives or swords we will never be able to replicate the skill of a sixteenth century Japanese swordsmith. We have lost the knowledge of how the steel was used, before we even begin.

So when we begin to use a well made weapon we are in a space of aspiration and failure. We know we are as good with a blade as we can be, but we are never as good as we would like to be.

A kata can be done to perfection, as Wayne suggests, but it doesn't prepare you for the speed of combat with a sword, or even wooden bokkens, and that can either turn you into a collector or a user. I suggested to Mrs Danzo that she take out work aggression via bokkens and we did have great fun for a while wacking each other with long bits of red maple.

Which returns us to the sword itself.

It is a weapon designed to kill. There isn't really any pretence with a sword; it is designed to kill.

We who collect swords respect that, and those of us who learn how to use weapons respect that even more. When we then extend our collections to knives we have to be all the more careful.

Does that answer your questions?

:confused:

Danzo

[Wayne D]

but it doesn't prepare you for the speed of combat with a sword, or even wooden bokkens, and that can either turn you into a collector or a user.

I will second that! it can go from comfortable familiarity with Kata to outright shock and fear when using edged blades!


I suggested to Mrs Danzo that she take out work aggression via bokkens and we did have great fun for a while wacking each other with long bits of red maple.

I once had a bokken splinter and break in half whilst training, it scared the cr*p out of me , as I was in the process of a low thrust to the abdomen, when a descending block snapped it in two! I almost impaled my opponent on the splintered bit ! As it was the broken bit ricoched off the floor and bounced away between us! :yikes:

[Buttercup]

I suggested to Mrs Danzo that she take out work aggression via bokkens and we did have great fun for a while wacking each other with long bits of red maple.

Which returns us to the sword itself.

It is a weapon designed to kill. There isn't really any pretence with a sword; it is designed to kill.

We who collect swords respect that, and those of us who learn how to use weapons respect that even more. When we then extend our collections to knives we have to be all the more careful.

Does that answer your questions?

:confused:

Danzo

Hi again Danzo, and thanks for taking the time to answer this. I've been thinking about what you've said and I'm sure you've hit the nail soundly on the head. :smashfrea

At the end of the day we are talking about a weapon that was designed and made to kill persons of the human persuasion. In battle. Not something you're likely to meet walking down the high street or even in combat in say, Iraq.
You aren't learning to use this sword so you can apply it in any situation outside the practise area.

So that leaves this pursuit in the camp of other skills - something to be learned and honed but never to be used in anger. I think I can understand that. It's how I see the use of most knives outside of the kitchen or the bush.

The techniques for making the swords are lost, and the ancient Master has been dead and dust for centuries along with his secrets. To me that seems to leave Mrs Danzo pulverising you with her bokken in the sitting room, or Mr Danzo and the other esteemed gents here at British Blades who practise the samurai as one would pursue any hobby to perfection. It's a craft, and one that demands great care and respect because of the sharp bits, but there is nothing mystical in it and you understand what it was intended for in the real world.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this thread and helped to answer my questions. You're a good lot.
Cheers,
Jan

[tomtom]

thought i would bump this thread as i find the topic interesting.. a samurai sword (decentish) one i something i have always wanted but i dont have the cash for something so whimsical really.. still i enjoy lookin at the and reading about them.. has anyone ever owned one from these people.. are they any good.. how would it compare to say a paul chen practical kantana?

http://www.depdep.com/

[ggfh666]

Weird, I just put their site in another post minutes ago...

As I was told (by Alexander Westphal of Katachi Art in Germany) when buying a tanto, depdep are high quality items.
I first had a Imperial Forge tanto but returned it. The folded blade was really well done but the fittings were a real downer for me.
I then was in doubt between the depdep aikuchi and the Paul Chen Tiger tanto. As I wanted a tanto with tsuka ito I went for the Tiger Tanto. It is a very well finished item. Less hada than the Imperial Forge, but good fittings.
I've also handled a PPK but did not like the balance and fake leather.
I bought a Last legend kumoryu grade 2 sword instead. It is meant to be used for cutting so the polish is not complete, i.e. little hamon showing. The balance is quite good and the fittings are reasonable.
I've not yet seen a Citadel but they look good on screen...

[tomtom]

Weird, I just put their site in another post minutes ago...


weired that :rolleye11

[tomtom]

lets see some pics of yours then... :D :D

[Kargol]

I strongly suggest that anybody withing to purchase a japanese sword, or even a japanese style sharpened sword for any practical usage such as tamshigiri, first trains for a while in Iaido. In the initial stages, the use of the bokken will help develop the correct grip and muscle usage. As you become more advanced and confident, and presuming your sensei agrees, the purchase of a decent iaito (unsharpened practice sword) will assist still further. Although often made of an aluminium/zinc alloy they replicate the weight and feel of a live blade quite well and the bo hi (blade grooves) aid in the correct usage of the blade by creating a 'swishing' noise when the air is cut 'true'. Some Japanese made Iaito are stunning works of art in themselves, and are easily worthy of display. The purchase of a 'live' blade, although tempting with the prices of things like the practical plus hanwei range, should not be taken lightly, and the idea of actually using a genuine old japanese sword for cutting without training fills me with horror.
Would you give the keys of a Ferrari to someone who hadn't even passed a driving test?
Now I have a tremendous amount of respect for the users of this site, all of whom are used to cutting things! But a katana is very strong generally ONLY directly perpendicular to the cutting edge, thus the importance of training. Lateral forces can and often will snap even a well made blade.

Ouch, when did I turn into my Dad...? :C
Lecture over! :rolleyes:

[Underhay]

Ouch, when did I turn into my Dad...? :C
Lecture over! :rolleyes:

Just because it sounds like something your Dad would say, doesn't mean it isn't excellent advice :)

[Medium John]

Heck of an interesting thread this, whoda thunk we had such scholers on board.