3 inches/76 mm, where?

[Simon G]

Chatting with a mate, he believes the 3 inch/76 mm measurement is blade length, however, I seem to remember somewhere being told that the length measurement refers to the the cutting edge. :dunno:

Anyone able to shed any light?

Regards,

Simon.

[David Morgan]

There have been various opinions expressed on this subject, in various threads. This is based on my reading of these various opinions;

If you want to be absolutely sure, measure from the pivot to the tip.
If you want to be reasonably sure, measure from the start of the cutting edge to the tip of the blade (from the choil to the tip).
If you want to be a bit pedantic measure along the belly of the knife from the choil to the tip.
If you want to be very pedantic, adopt the principles of fractal geometry and accept that, for all practical purposes, all blades are very, very long indeed, virtually infinite.
If you want to be not arrested, don't flash your blade around, don't act irresponsibly, and don't be rude to coppers, and a few millimetres either way won't make much difference!
Don't worry, be happy! :240:

[ANDYLASER]

:D Nice reply. :biggthump

[David Morgan]

I am guided by the cider badger, in this as in all things...

[ANDYLASER]

Aaah, the wise badger. :trink26:

[Simon G]

Badgers have my vote...........Mainly to the black and white team colours!!!

Toon, Toon, Toon, everywun gan wee aye, wee aye!!!!!

[richslaney]

Is there ever a Straight Answer ? :rolleyes:

[richslaney]

Anyway,

As my wife says, 'Size doesn't matter it's what you do with it what counts'!!!

Oh, pooh........ Not sure if that's good or bad. :yikes:

:confused: :confused:

Oh..... :mad:

[ANDYLASER]

Is there ever a Straight Answer ? :rolleyes:

Only when logic dictates otherwise. :confused:

[richslaney]

See what I mean :confused:

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

:wink:

[Colin KC]

Is there ever a Straight Answer ? :rolleyes:

Only onna Warncliffe orra sheepsfoot:p

[Danzo]

There have been various opinions expressed on this subject, in various threads. This is based on my reading of these various opinions;

If you want to be absolutely sure, measure from the pivot to the tip.
If you want to be reasonably sure, measure from the start of the cutting edge to the tip of the blade (from the choil to the tip).
If you want to be a bit pedantic measure along the belly of the knife from the choil to the tip.
If you want to be very pedantic, adopt the principles of fractal geometry and accept that, for all practical purposes, all blades are very, very long indeed, virtually infinite.
If you want to be not arrested, don't flash your blade around, don't act irresponsibly, and don't be rude to coppers, and a few millimetres either way won't make much difference!
Don't worry, be happy! :240:

Best concise summary I've ever read! This should be a sticky!

:approve:

Danzo

[Martyn]

Best concise summary I've ever read! This should be a sticky!

:approve:

Danzo

Couldn't agree more Danzo.

Just for reference...

From the 1988 Criminal justice act:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bladed items etc:- section 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See David Morgans post above for the standard advice regarding "real world" interpretation of this. :biggthump

[megalift]

Dave, You Rock - Long live the cider Badger...... ;o)

[Simon G]

Good shout on all of it fellas, many thanks.

[Danzo]

Davids post is now a sticky in this forum and has been logged in the Law Library.

:biggthump

Danzo

[David Morgan]

Such an honour... I'd like to thank my parents, my agent, my lawyer, all my fans... :)

[Kermit]

A good tip if your shopping for everyday carry knives is measure out 3 inchs of shoelace and cut it take the length with you to the store, line it up along the edge of the knives and you can be definatly sure on where youll stand legally.

The amount of times ive gone into knife dealers and walked out with knives I could never possibly carry for everyday work are countless. Many knives can be desceptive with thier size and actual cutting edge, you might look like youve just got out of a mental health hospital waving yer shoelace around the knives but its a smart and fast way to find out the details. Stockest arent likely to sell anything over 3.5 inchs though so this could be a bit anal.

[joe]

depends if you are into archery,, as far as i know my friend can carry a bowie, to dig hisb arrow out of target, been pulled ,no propblems

[bythethames1]

Here's a (maybe simplistic) question from a new knife collector...

If I take a 4" (total length) blade which has a 3.6" cutting edge, and reduce the sharp edge to 3", by grinding the sharpness away near the handle by 0.6" (ie 'cutting edge of its blade ' as per the 1988 Criminal justice act) this would seem to be legal for EDC?

Any thoughts on this one? Am I being hopelessly naieve here?

From the 1988 Criminal justice act:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bladed items etc:- section 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Danzo]

Here's a (maybe simplistic) question from a new knife collector...

If I take a 4" (total length) blade which has a 3.6" cutting edge, and reduce the sharp edge to 3", by grinding the sharpness away near the handle by 0.6" (ie 'cutting edge of its blade ' as per the 1988 Criminal justice act) this would seem to be legal for EDC?

Any thoughts on this one? Am I being hopelessly naieve here?

Not at all. It doesn't matter how long the blade was originally, it's how long it is at the time you are carrying it.

It's not an uncommon thing for people to do, particularly on certain knives. The Svord Peasant folder is a friction folder, which is legal for EDC, except for being a fraction over 3". Several members here have ground down the tip to ensure it's completely legal to carry.

The only thing to bear in mind is that many police officers on the street will measure the entire blade, not just the cutting edge.

Danzo

[leealanr]

it is the cutting edge of the blade that has to comply to the law.

unfortunately, most cops dont carry rulers with them on duty! So the overall length of the blade should not create the view that it is considerably bigger!

And Please, if you are going about your lawful business not causing a problem to anyone, then it is less likely you will come to the notice of the law. If you are waving ANY knife about, then you must expect to be dealt with.......Firmly!

regards.

Alan L.

[Martyn]

Here's a (maybe simplistic) question from a new knife collector...

If I take a 4" (total length) blade which has a 3.6" cutting edge, and reduce the sharp edge to 3", by grinding the sharpness away near the handle by 0.6" (ie 'cutting edge of its blade ' as per the 1988 Criminal justice act) this would seem to be legal for EDC?

Any thoughts on this one? Am I being hopelessly naieve here?

From the 1988 Criminal justice act:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bladed items etc:- section 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it went to court, you may possibly get off on that technicality, but you almost certainly would have to go to court, plead not guilty and employ a decent lawyer in order to escape a conviction.

In other words, expect to be arrested and charged with a blade like that.

On the other hand, you may not get off with it. Judges are allowed a certain amount of lattitude when interpreting the written letter of the law. A judge may feel that you have modified the blade in order to circumvent the spirit of the law and carry a longer than legal blade - which of course, is exactly what you would be doing. The judge may feel that this is sufficient to rule against you on the point of law and send you down for 2 years.

[Raoul Duke]

Not at all. It doesn't matter how long the blade was originally, it's how long it is at the time you are carrying it.

It's not an uncommon thing for people to do, particularly on certain knives. The Svord Peasant folder is a friction folder, which is legal for EDC, except for being a fraction over 3". Several members here have ground down the tip to ensure it's completely legal to carry.

The only thing to bear in mind is that many police officers on the street will measure the entire blade, not just the cutting edge.

Danzo

Lets hope they dont measure the entire length of the blade including the tang, as thats the longert tang in the world....probably.

Always felt a bit weird about carrying the svord, even with a shortened tip, as it realy wont fold when gripped, unlike the William Henry FF. so could be construed as a locker of sorts.

[spselby]

is blade length, however, I seem to remember somewhere being told that the length measurement refers to the the cutting edge. :dunno:

This is a question that we have on this side of the pond as well. Checking the US laws, it seems to vary from area to area. Some measure from the handle and some just the cutting edge.

[spselby]

Lets hope they dont measure the entire length of the blade including the tang, as thats the longert tang in the world....probably.

I have two of my using knives that have cutting edges of 7.3 and 7.4 cm cutting edges. One is a Lynn Dawson White Dwarf, the other is a Damascus USA Whitetail. The Whitetail also has 1.5 cm between the edge and the bolster which would make it 9.5 cm and too long to carry.

[The Blunt End]

Quick reply for any Americans on the site, the three inch rule only applies to folding knives. In the UK it is legal to carry a three inch bladed folding knife without reason, the carrying of a fixed bladed knife must be justified by having some purpose, which is why Joe's archer friend can carry his Bowie to dig his arrows out of targets. He'd be in deep trouble if he went to the pub with his archery buddies with it though.

Point of interest, the wording of the act does not specifically ban the carrying of locking knives that otherwise meet the requirements, this had to be tried in court and it was deemed that once opened a locking knife was equivalent to a fixed bladed knife.

[ciderlion]

Guys
I am old bill, granted been out of uniform a long time. From what i recall it is the cutting edge taking in too account. Your guess is as good as mine though with regards to what the average copper in the street will use as a guide these dyas, probably the overall blade length. I havent had to deal with this kind of matter for a long time, plus i am a county mountie as we say.:P

[spamel]

How long is the cutting edge of a three inch bladed serrated knife? Gonna be more than three inches, surely!

[ciderlion]

Technically no! a Copper on the street would look at the overall length along a blade not the length of the serrations up and down a blade. Serrations do increase a cutting edge length, but i cant imagine Coppers on the street measuring every seperate blade tooth so too speak.

[spamel]

So I have overstepped the mark of pedantry and entered a whole new level of pedantry! And on a Sunday too, how exciting!

:D

[ciderlion]

So I have overstepped the mark of pedantry and entered a whole new level of pedantry! And on a Sunday too, how exciting!

:D


Heh heh !! being pedantic is fun, any day of the week.;)

[jerbal]

One day the pedants will rise up and overthrow their evil rulers (or bits of shoelace)

[Andy]

I thought there had been a test case where it was suggested that a serrated blade was not legal due to the extra cutting edge. This was regected (+1 for common sense if I didn't dream it)

[hog]

Does this all mean that small is the new big?(wishfull):huh:

[ciderlion]

I thought there had been a test case where it was suggested that a serrated blade was not legal due to the extra cutting edge. This was regected (+1 for common sense if I didn't dream it)

Dont know to be honest, but it wouldnt surprise, and does seem like common sense. But it shows you if there has been a test case, that someone did get nicked for having too many serrations on a blade for someone, the cutting edge debate must have been the issue. So they outcome probably erred on the overall blade length and not cutting edge.

[nuphoria]

This has answered one for me, ta.

[tantotommy]

One of my ancestors was Which Tyler, leader of the Pedants Revolt!

[GeoffWood]

In a recent conversation with a retired police inspector, I asked for his opinion on the 3" rule. His advice to me was to be safe, measure from the tip of the blade to the point where the blade meets the handle - in other words, the cutting edge + the ricasso. When I pressed on the letter of the law being "a cutting edge no more than 3" his response was that it would depend on the circumstances and the appearance of the knife whether an arrest and prosecution would take place.
Interestingly he also said that a knife with a 3" (or maybe less) and an unusually long ricasso would be probably considered as an offensive weapon. So grinding off some of the cutting edge from the handle end would be unlikely to succeed in making an illegal knife legal.
Presumably, the 3" cutting edge in the law is there in case the folding knife were used as a stabbing weapon and thus limit the depth of penetration. Any perceived attempt to get round that would require a very good lawyer to secure a not guilty in case of a prosecution.

[Kniven]

I don't think it would require an especially good lawyer at all. Whatever a police officer says, his job ends when he hands you over to the CPS. He can take you that far, but if I were the CPS I'd forget it. Even if they did prosecute, the law is quite clear. If a part of the blade is unsharpened then it is not a "cutting edge," so it is not included in the measurement.

An offensive weapon prosecution would be a different matter. In the case of the UKPK, for instance, the choil is quite clearly where your finger goes, not to make the knife longer for stabbing. For a modification done yourself, that's a perfectly reasonable explanation and it should be fairly obvious the modification is designed to be a place to put your finger. If the knife doesn't lock (legal EDC) then it's not very suitable for use as a weapon - if I was willing to break the law and spend tim modifying a knife to be a weapon that ultimately poses just as much threat to me as to anyone else, why wouldn't I just carry a kitchen knife or a locking folder?

[GeoffWood]

I stand corrected.

So if I take a slipjoint folder with a 4.5" blade and it has a 2.9" cutting edge with a 1.6" ricasso it will be OK?

[BigShot]

Hey folks.
I just got a brand spanking new Svord Peasant in the post today (cheers Danzo) and am now wondering whehter it's EDCable (legally) or not. I'm aware people have modified the tip to bring them comfortably within 3", by the way.

When I first thought about it, David Morgan's excellent post about verying degrees of pedancy and fractal geometry came to mind but I'm wondering if there's a straight answer - not in terms of cutting edge vs whole blade - but in how the actual edge is measured.

I'm quite happy not being so safe that I measure from pivot or handle to tip so no problem there.

Measuring parallel with the straight part of the blade gives a length of 3" exactly. It may be different on some other Peasants, but that's how mine measures.
Measuring from choil to tip gives 3 1/8".
Obviously going along the belly is longer still.

Even though I didn't buy it for this, I'd like to EDC it, but don't want to modify it until I have a spare (when a knife is this good and this cheap I can't see a reason not to get more to play with) so could do with knowing how it's most likely to be measured in court if it comes to that.

Is there any kind of straight answer on that front at all?
Can any of you legal bods confirm use of one method or another if ever these things make it to the inside of a courtroom?

Of course. I won't be doing anything stupid to get attention, but if a bed-wetter saw it in use and called the police it could become a going concern.



EDIT
Changed 1/16th to 1/8th as I'd misread the scale on my rule. OOPS.

[birdseye]

I don't think it would require an especially good lawyer at all. Whatever a police officer says, his job ends when he hands you over to the CPS. He can take you that far, but if I were the CPS I'd forget it. Even if they did prosecute, the law is quite clear. If a part of the blade is unsharpened then it is not a "cutting edge," so it is not included in the measurement.

An offensive weapon prosecution would be a different matter. In the case of the UKPK, for instance, the choil is quite clearly where your finger goes, not to make the knife longer for stabbing. For a modification done yourself, that's a perfectly reasonable explanation and it should be fairly obvious the modification is designed to be a place to put your finger. If the knife doesn't lock (legal EDC) then it's not very suitable for use as a weapon - if I was willing to break the law and spend tim modifying a knife to be a weapon that ultimately poses just as much threat to me as to anyone else, why wouldn't I just carry a kitchen knife or a locking folder?

This sounds to me the very best advice. The regular copper is not the judge and jury.

[stonehard]

what I dont really understand is that on a friction folder the hand clearly locks the blade open ie it has a remote locking mechanism. if a pin was used like on the extrema ratio RAO http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/inglese/military/img/rao_lama.jpg this would probably be considered illegal even if the pin was in another pocket. a slip joint cant be held open unless you choke down on the choil ie UKPK. quite a quandry. any comments?

[bagman]

what I dont really understand is that on a friction folder the hand clearly locks the blade open ie it has a remote locking mechanism.

Your hand is not a locking mechanism and you do not have to disengage anything to close it, it folds freely, actually pivots ;)

[BigShot]

I agree with Bagman.

The knife is folded purely by the action of folding - that you have to move your hand out of the way first is true of all manner of folding knife.

It would take an incredibly unreasonable judge/magistrate and the worlds most bafflingly convoluted talking from the prosecution to find otherwise I think.

[steogede]

Always felt a bit weird about carrying the svord, even with a shortened tip, as it realy wont fold when gripped, unlike the William Henry FF. so could be construed as a locker of sorts.

That really isn't something you should worry about. No sane judge would ever determine that the tang on a Svord Peasant constitutes a lock. As has been mentioned, no folding knife (unless it is unimaginably sharp) can close whilst you are gripping the handle. Also if it were considered a lock knife, then presumably that would be because tang, and the construction of the knife, is considered a locking device. If this is the case then both Svord Peasants and straight razors would be considered to be gravity knives. I can't see a judge suddenly deciding that, for the past 50 years, every barber (worth their salt) in the country has been guilty of possessing an offensive weapon in public.

[leealanr]

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

"In a recent conversation with a retired police inspector, I asked for his opinion on the 3" rule. His advice to me was to be safe, measure tip of the blade to the point where the blade meets the handle - in other words, the cutting edge + the ricasso. When I pressed on the letter of the law being "a cutting edge no more than 3" his response was that it would depend on the circumstances and the appearance of the knife whether an arrest and prosecution would take place.
Interestingly he also said that a knife with a 3" (or maybe less) and an unusually long ricasso would be probably considered as an offensive weapon. So grinding off some of the cutting edge from the handle end would be unlikely to succeed in making an illegal knife legal.
Presumably, the 3" cutting edge in the law is there in case the folding knife were used as a stabbing weapon and thus limit the depth of penetration. Any perceived attempt to get round that would require a very good lawyer to secure a not guilty in case of a prosecution".

As a retired police officer as well, I would agree with most of the above. However the element of what the person was doing at the time with the knife would also have to be considered. I also always taught that it is the cutting edge of the blade that needed to be measured for S 139 offences.

However there is always more than one piece of legislation to deal with a particular instance, so yes anything included as suggested above, a sharpened pencil, if it was "Made adapted or intended for use" could be considered an offensive weapon. Therefore if an apparently UK legal folder was in someones possession but the overall length of the blade was greater than what was what I perceived to be "normal" I would want to know a specific reason as to why the knife was so unusual and make searching enquiries into why it was.

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

Quote Originally Posted by Kniven View Post
I don't think it would require an especially good lawyer at all. Whatever a police officer says, his job ends when he hands you over to the CPS. He can take you that far, but if I were the CPS I'd forget it. Even if they did prosecute, the law is quite clear. If a part of the blade is unsharpened then it is not a "cutting edge," so it is not included in the measurement.

The regular copper is not the judge and jury.

Quite right, the regular copper is not the judge and jury. It is one of the strengths of British Democracy and long may it be so. However this misses an important point. The police officer on the ground has to make an instant decision on the information in front of them at the time. This they do after some of the best training in the world and encouragement, even in our results driven culture of today, to use a goodly measure of discretion.

However, given those circumstances, If they honestly believe that an offence has been committed and they have a power to so do, then they are perfectly entitled to make an arrest.

It is therefore in my view far better to ensure you are not in a position to be arrested and spend some time in a busy and usually quite unpleasant setting in a custody suite, before the issue is resolved than attempt to stand on a contestable point of law which would have to be resolved at a much later date.

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

I stand corrected.

So if I take a slipjoint folder with a 4.5" blade and it has a 2.9" cutting edge with a 1.6" ricasso it will be OK?

Geoff, as above, I think you would be subject of some quite searching questions. The final answer would no doubt be as a result of a case stated, but is there really a desire or need to go that far?

Although it is in fact quite restrictive in UK law it does always operate on the basis of "reasonableness" and provided you have a knife which is within the spirit as ell as the actuality of the law, you use and carry it for the right reasons in the right places, there is little in reality to fear.

Stay Safe and Happy New year to you all..

Alan L.

[Xelian]

It does beg the question about the hole in the law. Friction folders, which you manually lock into place with your hand, while not being illegal by any interpretation of S 139 are still a grey area because the idea of the law is that this is supposed to stop knife crime, predominantly fatal stabbings. Being able to hold a knife open means its just as easy to stab someone with as a fixed blade.

Although the Blade length issue comes up a lot, as the law is definitely not infallible, i think it's really just best to be as pedantic as you can, while still employing common sense. Measure 3 inches up to the handle, as that is how much can effectively penetrate, if used for stabbing. A 2.5" blade is more than enough for most urban EDC tasks, and any more if necessary would allow you to carry a longer blade as it would be for a job, hobby etc.

After buying the UKPK, i'm now in two minds whether to take it out or not, obviously as a 'just in case' measure. Even though its 3" and if you're not suspicious and not an idiot you should have no problem, it still looks big. The Urban would probably be a better option if you wanted to EDC something, and it's plenty big enough.

Might have to watch out in the future, friction folders may appear on S 139 some day..

[Basemetal]

"Lock into place with your hand". Thats an oxymoron. Really not a helpful post Xelian... why muddy the water with ill thought through opinion?

[Danzo]

It does beg the question about the hole in the law. Friction folders, which you manually lock into place with your hand, while not being illegal by any interpretation of S 139 are still a grey area

No, they aren't.

:rolleyes:

As Basemetal says, please don't post uninformed opinion as fact. It makes things much more difficult for those of us who do know what we are talking about

Danzo

[Xelian]

Yes, I should have put they would be a grey area. You are right, considering the current law they are not mentioned. I shall be more careful with my wording in the future.

The main point was that the law is to prevent people from being stabbed, and a long tang friction folder would be just as easy to stab someone with, unlike a pen knife, for example (although obviously not impossible either). Not trying to make things more confusing.

Apologies for the misconstrued wording.

[Basemetal]

Yes, I should have put they would be a grey area. You are right, considering the current law they are not mentioned. I shall be more careful with my wording in the future.

The main point was that the law is to prevent people from being stabbed, and a long tang friction folder would be just as easy to stab someone with, unlike a pen knife, for example (although obviously not impossible either). Not trying to make things more confusing.

Apologies for the misconstrued wording.

No...they are not a grey area. They are folding knives capable of folding without disengaging any locking device. Pure and simple.
The law that prevents people being stabbed is effectively "Don't stab people".

This forum is for discussing sale, purchase, ownership and carriage regulations governing knives and sharps in the UK. Please stop posting anything related to assault here. There is coverage of the rationale for determining a 3" blade length as a line in the sand, but that's not something we are here to discuss.

[subwoofer]

I feel inspired to add a reply to this thread as to me the greyness of the collective reply is unsatisfactory. However what we have to look at are the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

Before adding my tuppence worth:

The matter of the spirit of the law has been covered. If a non-locking knife is modified to appear to comply with the letter of the law, but is strange in appearance having an excessively long blade for the actual cutting length this would and should lead to further investigation. If a knife is reduced in length to make it comply with the letter of the law (such as the svord) then that is fine as it has obviously been modified to make it legal, not to push the boundaries.

Also covered has been the fact that anything carried or wielded with intent to cause harm can be classed as offensive weapon even something as inoffensive as a pencil, but this is an aside really as we are discussing the legal carrying of a useful tool, not a weapon.

As for the original question, the letter of the law is quite clear, the 3" refers to the 'cutting edge' of the 'blade' quite clearly distinguishing the two concepts of a 'blade' and a 'cutting edge'.

If we retreat from our rights, in fear of incorrect interpretation of the law (though how much clearer could S139 be?) we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily. I would consider production knives the main easily available type of knife for consideration as custom knives near the limit of the law may be of unconventional design and raise questions. If a production knife is non-locking/readily fold-able and has a conventional blade design with a cutting edge less than 3", this is legal for UK EDC.

[fluffy]

If we retreat from our rights, in fear of incorrect interpretation of the law (though how much clearer could S139 be?) we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily. I would consider production knives the main easily available type of knife for consideration as custom knives near the limit of the law may be of unconventional design and raise questions. If a production knife is non-locking/readily fold-able and has a conventional blade design with a cutting edge less than 3", this is legal for UK EDC.

UKPKs should sail through Mount Pleasant.
Conventional as has a makers mark (a hole).
There is no requirement that a makers mark should prevent the knife from being opened one handed.
A weak backspring on a SAK would allow gravity deployment if the blade was held and the body of the knife flicked away (just tested this)

[Kiri]

Let's remember that the UKBA seizure of a number of UKPK is based on their incorrect assertion that they are a gravity knife. To be a gravity knife under the statutory definition the knife has to be opened by gravity or centrifugal force and then "lock" in place. Which the UKPK clearly doesnt as it matches the Harris definition for a folding knife where the knife is readily foldable at all times merely by the folding action of the blade and no secondary action like pressing a button is necessary.

The only reason UKBA has got away with it is most people don't want to risk a
potential £1500 legal bill if they lost for a £30 knife or even a £150 knife. I have absolutely no doubt that UKBA is wrong in it's classification of the UKPK as a gravity knife.

[truffers]

Hello all,

I am brand new here, so bare with me! I am a serving police officer and will happily answer any questions on points of law and how I/we as constables would deal with a given situation.

I would like to emphasize the fact that if you carry with you a knife with a blade longer than 3" lockable or not, or a sharply pointed object, and have a reasonable excuse, i.e. you are an electrician and need it for work, mechanic, scout leader etc, or a lawful purpose, i.e. most police constables carry lockable knife/multi tools in the execution of their duty, and you have never been in arrested or convicted of a knife crime or offensive weapon crime before, then you will most likely not be arrested. If you were arrested, it is even more unlikely you would be charged if your 'reasonable excuse' or 'lawful purpose' is proven, as the Crown prosecution Service don't charge if they have no chance of winning at court!

Now I would like to open a can of worms.....

As British citizens, under common law, we are to protect the Queens Peace are we not...thus a lawful excuse???

There is a test case going through the courts at this time, where a chap I know had himself arrested on purpose in possession of a friction lock baton (Offensive Weapon) and a CS Spray (A section 5 firearm). He was carrying them for the purpose of self defense under article 8 of the Bill of Rights 1689. I know he had no knife, but the same would apply if he were. It has gone to magistrates court and been past over to crown court, it is now in the depths of the court of appeal, as it should be, and where he wanted it to go, as when he is proven to be right in terms of the law, it will be binding on every single court in the land!

I am pretty peeved with the statute laws around knives, guns, weapons and self defense, which conveniently don't take into account our common law rights! But thats for another day!

Thanks for reading.

[markg87]

hi all,
i have a little information regarding the 'reasonable excuse' part of the UK knife law, whilst wild camping with a group of friends i was approached by police and questioned and then arrested and charges brought against me (2 counts of having in my possession an article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding knife with a blade not exceeding 3 inches without lawful authority or good reason) the knifes i had were a lock knife with a blade of four inches and a fixed blade knife with a blade of five inches. i plead not guilty to both the charges and the procurator fiscal decided to take me to trial at Stirling sheriff court. during my trial i explained to the sheriff that i used the knifes to construct a shelter and prepare firewood etc, the sheriff decided that this was a reasonable excuse to have the knifes in my possession in a public place. The reason i wanted to share this is to show that as long as you are using the knife for a legal purpose then there is no need to fear persecution for having such an item in your possession. Thanks for reading Mark.

[Danzo]

Now I would like to open a can of worms.....

As British citizens, under common law, we are to protect the Queens Peace are we not...thus a lawful excuse???

There is a test case going through the courts at this time, where a chap I know had himself arrested on purpose in possession of a friction lock baton (Offensive Weapon) and a CS Spray (A section 5 firearm). He was carrying them for the purpose of self defense under article 8 of the Bill of Rights 1689. I know he had no knife, but the same would apply if he were. It has gone to magistrates court and been past over to crown court, it is now in the depths of the court of appeal, as it should be, and where he wanted it to go, as when he is proven to be right in terms of the law, it will be binding on every single court in the land!

I am pretty peeved with the statute laws around knives, guns, weapons and self defense, which conveniently don't take into account our common law rights! But thats for another day!

Thanks for reading.

Hi, and welcome to BB.

I suspect you have been reading or watching material which is based on a certain very specific US libertarian analysis of the status of the original thirteen colonies in the USA.

There is a technical legal argument which suggests that the relationship between the original settlers and the settling companies of the Virginia Colony is based in UK Maritime Law of 17th Century, and contracts dependant on that Maritime Law.

This may, technically, mean that some US citizens can exclude themselves from any current legal relationship with the corporate body called the United States of America, as the contractual relationships between the settlers and the setling companies were broken by the UK settling companies prior to the Declaration of Independence, and subsequent to that Declaration of Independence have no legal authority in the US courts.

This is what gives rise to these arguments that there is a fundamental distintiction between "statute" and common" law.

However none of these arguments, as fascinating as they are for legal scholars. libertarians, anarchists and nutters, have any effect or influence on English law and our relationship with the State. The relationship between statute law and common law in this country goes back at least as far as the twelfth century.

Hope that helps!

Danzo

[earthman]

hi all,
i have a little information regarding the 'reasonable excuse' part of the UK knife law, whilst wild camping with a group of friends i was approached by police and questioned and then arrested and charges brought against me (2 counts of having in my possession an article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding knife with a blade not exceeding 3 inches without lawful authority or good reason) the knifes i had were a lock knife with a blade of four inches and a fixed blade knife with a blade of five inches. i plead not guilty to both the charges and the procurator fiscal decided to take me to trial at Stirling sheriff court. during my trial i explained to the sheriff that i used the knifes to construct a shelter and prepare firewood etc, the sheriff decided that this was a reasonable excuse to have the knifes in my possession in a public place. The reason i wanted to share this is to show that as long as you are using the knife for a legal purpose then there is no need to fear persecution for having such an item in your possession. Thanks for reading Mark.

That's a shocking story, how comes things went that far in the first place? In all honestly, why did the police question you to start with and how did you respond? Looking back on the whole situation, would/could you have done anything different to affect the outcome??

[parbajtor]

That's a shocking story, how comes things went that far in the first place? In all honestly, why did the police question you to start with and how did you respond? Looking back on the whole situation, would/could you have done anything different to affect the outcome??

I imagine that because Mark knew enough not to accept a "caution" (i.e. plead guilty, save the authorities the cost of a fair trial or having to provide the burden of proof) The officer had to arrest. Likely as well, because the Desk Sergeant spends more time reading "redtops" than the Law Review, he took the editor of his favorite "news" paper as the legal authority on S.139 and thus backed up the common assertion (amongst police forces) that "there's no such thing as good reason". It had to go to trial so that someone with legal authority could make a judgement. This is known as "due process".