I see trouble ahead after teenager's murder.

[mirage]

"Mr Justice Goldring called ... the knife Pennell carried... a "wicked weapon""

The picture in the Telegraph article today (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=2C3LPRIHKQFLJQFIQMFCM5WAVCBQY JVC?xml=/news/2004/07/28/nluke28.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/28/ixnewstop.html) shows the weapon to have been a CRKT KISS.

The KISS was referred to in yesterday's Telegraph as a "flick knife." It is referred to in the Telegraph article above as an " 8-inch knife."

"His attacker [ ] took a flick-knife to Birkbeck school in North Somercotes, Lincs, and deliberately thrust it into Luke's chest..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/27/nluke27.xml

I think it's time to circle the wagons.

Despite the fact that everything this murderer did was already illegal, I foresee the usual cries from the "Daily Mail mentality" to make it "Double Super Illegal With Knobs On", as if that would make any difference to anyone except the law-abiding.

mirage

[Chux]

I fervently hope you are completely wrong in this prediction. However, I know that it is borne from experience :(

It doesn't help when the lawmakers can't categorise things properly according to their legal definition. :mad:

[mloc]

it's good to see justice being served, but it's annoying when they mis-inform the mass public about the size/type of the knife that was used they could have atleast got the right picture and stated (he used a knife with a blade of ___inches). but that does'nt sell papers

[PS_Bond]

:banghead:

Show the daft old beggar some pictures of Steve Licata's work. That should induce enough apoplexy to put him out of comission.

I regularly carried a knife at school. An SAK - and it was used pretty much every day.

[Ophidian]

Just a few comments to add to what Mirge has said:

1. Killing a fellow citizen is murder and illegal no matter what weapon was used
(car, knife, gun base-ball bat etc. or just bare hands).

2. The picture shows a knife “similar” to the one used, which could lead people who
glance at the article to think that this is an flick knife (bit stupid as it is a skeleton
design and anyone with any sense can see it isn’t an auto).

3. The CRKT kiss has a blade of “only” 2.25 in, but that seems neither scary or
wicked so the press have reported a 8in knife, probably overall length.

4. You only have to look at 9/11 to see how effective a small blade such as a box-
cutter (Stanley knife) can be. This child could just as easily have been stabbed to
death with a pencil, scissors or slashed with the sharp edge of a identity card / buss
pass. Unfortunately it was a knife and so that automatically makes it far more evil.

5. If it where a real “evil” flick knife, then it would be totally illegal to have in public
regardless of any “good reason” that might be used for a normal lock knife. (I can
see why a fast opening flick knife was feared back in the 50’s – 60’s, when most
normal pocket knives where opened by a thumb nick and took 2 hands, but most
modern locking liners are (almost) just as quick with their thumb studs).

6. The “sheeple” might start to demand that all folding knives be banned as they are
far too easy to carry and conceal, not realising that a locking folder is already
classed as a fixed blade. But they forget that this lad could have taken a fixed blade
kitchen knife from home, or may even have stolen one from the school’s canteen or
art class. He could have taken a screw driver or chisel from woodwork /
metalwork class. As we know most domestic stabbing are from the use of kitchen
knives.

7. Slightly off topic, but I was shopping in a large deparment store in town and could not help wondering why all the large kitchen knives where so readily accessible? There are
plenty of homeless people, druggies around town so what is stopping them walking
into a store and going mad with a knife? Could even be a housewife or a business
man having a bad day! Quite scary thought!


8. As always, those of us that have an genuine interest in blades are considered by the
general public to be unhinged. It is a similar situation with the shooting sports. I am
fully paid up member of a target shooting club. The bolt-action rifles that I use bear
no resemblance to the illegal hand guns, auto machine pistols etc. that are used by
these gangs, and yet the general public perceive all guns to be evil.

Any death to a bullied child is a tragedy, I just wonder if they would have sensationalised it in quite the same way if he had been pushed down a staircase?

[ANDYLASER]

Perhaps a letter to the press complaint council regarding the reporting of "untruths", or "inventive sensationalism" would be in order.

[ZDP-189]

Perhaps a letter to the press complaint council regarding the reporting of "untruths", or "inventive sensationalism" would be in order.

No, there is nothing to be gained from it. I should avoid bringing unwanted attention to legitimate collectors by association with this deplorable and murderous act.

I agree that it's a technical inaccuracy, but it's better that he was killed with a 'flick-knife' than something that an adult could legally own.

[Lord Farquhar]

its weird how people think when you tell them you make knifes. most people think automatically " nutter!"

knifes don’t kill people, people kill people

how many people are stabbed by hand made custom knifes?
how may stabbed with beer glasses... why don’t we ban beer classes and make people drink out of styrene cups?

its just classic reactionary politics the problem is not knifes its violence and social and moral degradation..

:soapbox:

[Darran]

I read the Daily Mail today and had this thought,i have seen the press do the "we sent a 15 year old in this offlicence/hardware store to see if he could get served with drink/solvents" and "teenager gets betting account on line".Will they(the press)now try and order as many "wicked flick knives" on line using an under aged person.
Traders beware.

[Little claw]

"Mr Justice Goldring called ... the knife Pennell carried... a "wicked weapon"

there's a subjective opinion masqueraing as fact if ever I heard one.


The KISS was referred to in yesterday's Telegraph as a "flick knife." It is referred to in the Telegraph article above as an " 8-inch knife."

The fact (or otherwise) that it was a "flick knife" is irrelevant to the crime in question. Because Pennell ambushed the victim with the knife already prepared, the ease of carry, concealment and presentation have no bearing on the outcome of the event. This incident could not have been prevented by legislation.


I think it's time to circle the wagons.

How? What can we do?


Despite the fact that everything this murderer did was already illegal, I foresee the usual cries from the "Daily Mail mentality" to make it "Double Super Illegal With Knobs On", as if that would make any difference to anyone except the law-abiding.

The though that I used to read the Daily Mail makes me feel nauseous these days. Such sensationalist language from the Telegraph is very disappointing.

[Yog]

Ever since I first heard about this case I had really hoped the thug had used a kitchen knife (although like all of us I REALLY wished he hadn't used any knife at all). But my worst fears were confirmed when the judge described the evil weapon as a "Locking flick knife". The fact he thought it was a flick knife doesn't bother me so much (easy to disprove), but the fact he highlighted it as being locking was a very worrying development.

Now I'm lucky enough that I feal confident about justifying a locking folder as an essential part of my work, but I'm really worried that this could all too easilly turn into a knee jerk reaction to ban all locking folders.

I think part of the problem is that we are becoming so much of a service industry society (relying on technical services rather than manufacturing), that large parts of the population have lost the concept of hand tools being relavent to a job of work.

I just hope something "interesting" happens in the world soon, so the press have something better to do than go on a crusade to rid the world of 2.5 inch folding "evil" weapons. :(

[ZDP-189]

Maybe we can persuade Tony Blair to shag an intern?

[BorderReiver]

It's not the newspapers that worry me(they print sensationalist crap to make money)it is the reaction of HMG that scares me :censored:

The French reaction to an incident like this,or one with multiple victims,is "what is it that caused this person to act in this way,and what can we do to change the social environment to stop a recurrence"

Our bloody lot rush to ban something.It is always easier to legislate against the law abiding majority and be seen to be "controling" things.The fact that what they do is TOTALLY pointless and does bugger all to make things better seems to be irellevant.(Yes I was a target pistol shooter :( )

[Slidje]

a kid was knifed at my old school some years ago so we had a lot of discussion about weapons. burnage has a bad reputation in most areas.

i thought the story about the father killing his own son with a kitchen knife was far far far more disturbing

[Yog]

It looks like things are already getting worse :(

There was just an audio clip on the radio news of the Home Secretary, where he said he was considering changing the law to make the act of carrying a knife (not just using) as serious offence as carrying a GUN :confused: :mad:

The wording on any new legislation will be VERY important. At best (but bad enough) we could be facing the fact that carryng a locking folder in a public place becomes a more serious offence. Worse case they make carrying any type of knife (including sub 3" slipjoints) in public a criminal offence. :(

So instead of going to work with a Spyderco Calypso Jnr clipped to my pocket, I will now need to carry a folding saw, a pair of gardening shears, a wood carvers draw knife (because it looks more tool like than a pocket knife), and a pair of scissors.
But on the other hand it will still be the case that when I walk onto a school site with my long handled slasher, with it's 18" blade, over my shoulder, no one will blink an eye at it :dunno:

Really, the Spyderco UK Penknife cannot arrive soon enough.

[Tantalus]

ya think the "penknife" will still be legal by the time it arrives?

hahaha its a bit like banning matches and lighters to prevent arson :confused:

:( Tant

[Little claw]

It looks like things are already getting worse :(

There was just an audio clip on the radio news of the Home Secretary, where he said he was considering changing the law to make the act of carrying a knife (not just using) as serious offence as carrying a GUN :confused: :mad:

Yah. They should definitely do that, because then Pennel would have got 5 years for carrying the knife to school running concurrently with his minimum 12 years for MURDER! :rolleyes: :twak:

That would certainly discourage me from murdering someone with a knife, getting an extra five years to serve at the same time would be awful. :censored: I would definitely then choose a hammer or chisel or something else.

A knife is a tool, some tools can be used as weapons. Guns are weapons full stop. Carrying a tool can never be considered to be as extreme as carrying a weapon.

I have carried various knives quite similar to the one in question for close to 20 years, including at school (before it was illegal to do so). It could certainly have done the same damage as Pennel's, yet it never did. I have also been attacked twice in that time and the knife didn't come out on the occasion that I had it (I leave it at home if I'm out on the p!ss). The only two people who have been cut by one of my knives are myself and a stupid fool who wanted to see how sharp the little blade on my SAK was. By the home sectreary's logic, I should have been locked up many times over for a minimum of 5 years a time.

Before they do this they should consider stiffer sentences for killing people. If they think that won't work, why do they think that stiffer sentences for carrying knives will?

Before all of this, though, they should look at why people bully, what the underlying causes are, what the signs are and how to deal with it. This, of course, is a lot more work for a less politically certain outcome than simply writing an amendment to existing law. This is the problem with democracy, perception is reality to the voter an so has a tangible effect on the votee, therefore perception outweighs truth and we're all screwed. This wouldn't be such a bad thing if the people who dealt in perception weren't so cynical about manipulating it. You don't need to fool all of the people all of the time as long as you fool the majority.

Final plea: let's not make the same mistake as the shooting crowd by staying quiet in an effort not to attract negative attention. It didn't work.

[Adi]

Just heard on the radio that they want to ban carrying all knives!
B@llocks, I've just ordered another sebbie!!!!!!!!

[Little claw]

who are 'they'?

if its ho,e office that's worrying.

if its some opinionated DJ or listener tha's not as worrying.

[Adi]

Home office I think!

[Raoul Duke]

This does seem to be getting V-V-bad. :yikes:

I think a letter from British blades is the Minimum we can, and should do.

Sticking or heads in the sand and hopeing that this will blow over will not work.!

The Knife law should stay the same.

Its the Law Breakers that should be punnished more severly not the people that spend so much time checking that they comply with the law.

This is a Knee jerk reaction that won't deter criminals.

Ross, Danzo, Martyn and ALL other B.B members: We have to do something!!! Please. Lets put A letter Together.

This making all knives illegal is Bullsh!t and we need to point out that the Knife was illegal for so many different reasons: Locking with no reason,At School, 15 year old owner, i'm sure i've probably missed a few.

They will only punish law abiders.

The press need to get a grip also this was not a Flick Knife but just as Illegal.

This Murderer was reported to be a Drunk, Drug taking, Violent ( to his Own Family) Yob.

He repeatedly Punched Kicked And strangled People Before he Used His Knife.
They should sort this Type of Scum out first with serious Old School Measures. THis could have been Prevented.

They should make the laws to the public Better Known.

They should increase Penalties to the Offenders. They Should Sort their Lives out.

Case law has already overiden ( wrongly)the Legeslation behind the current Knife Law. Locks were OK, Now they are Flick Knives. WTF!!!!!! They are the same as a Gun......

Put it this way, If WE dont Write a letter to the Home Secretary then I Will.

I just think that other people here would Write it Better and Possibly Get Better Results!!!!!!!!!!!!! As I will possibly, unitentionaly, inflame the situation.

I am always the one to Sit back and see what happens. Not Now.

These MP are supposed to work for us. If they dont Know how we feel We have Failed to tell them of all the stupid uninformed choices they have made Before.

If they want to increase the Sentance for illegal carry that i can live with but to change the Law is JUST SO STUPID!!!!!

IF this happens I will leave the Country and move abroad. Its turning in to a Sh!t hole anyway. I'm That Serious.

[Chux]

I think it is better if the idea that it was a flick knife persists as they're already outlawed. Pointing out this error is just a way of bringing unnecessary information in to view:

Compare 'It was a flick knife let's ban them then. Oh, they're already banned' to
'It was a flick knife lets ban them, oh, it was a lock knife, let's ban them as well then'

It is frustrating sitting on the sidelines seeing the powers-that-be trying to stop crimes by banning inanimate objects. We all know perfectly well that the same crime could have been comitted with 1001 other items. It is just easier to start knee jerk banning than tackling, or looking for, the actual causes.

It can't be too long before the govenrment starts legislating that all food should come ready sliced :rolleyes:

[Martyn]

Surely the way to go regarding legislation is to make the sentance for murder a MANDATORY 30 years, minimum with no possibility for parole? Those who advocate early rerlease and parole for "reformed" characters are missing the point entirely. It's the severity of the penalty which acts as a deterrent in the first place. We should spend some of that TAX money on building a new prison on one of the uninhabited hebridean islands. It should be a massive, imposing and truly miserable place, with minimal facilities, catering to only basic health and hygiene needs, saved for murderers and terrorists.

The kid was already breaking every law, adding another law wouldn't change a thing for him, but only serve to further constrain the freedoms of the law abiding. There is no sense at all makeing the laws more extensive if the penalties for breaking them are getting ever lighter.

[Yog]

Its the Law Breakers that should be punnished more severly not the people that spend so much time checking that they comply with the law.

This is a Knee jerk reaction that won't deter criminals.

I may be being overly cynical, but .....
..... don't you think the politicians know this is a knee jerk reaction ? It's not a new concept, but it has been picking up mommentum lately. To get elected you have to be popular, to be popular you have to be seen to give the public what they want, the more sensationalist and short term the better.

As for the media, good news or straight facts don't sell. Sensationalist, alarming, fear provoking stories sell. :mad:

At the end of the day to appease a public that has been pumped up to outraged indignation by a media more interested in making money than reporting the unbiased facts, the politicians have to be SEEN to be tackling the problem. Unfortunately the "problem" is elusive and difficult to handle.
Take road trafic accidents. 90% of RTA's are due to lack of concentation or judgement. Unfortunately lack of concentration and/or judgement is extremely difficult to legislate against or prove. On the otherhand speeding, which is often at best a contributing factor to the severity of the accident rather than the cause, is very easy to legislate against and prove.
In the same way it is very difficult to change the factors that produce the type of a:censored:holes we are talking about, but it is very easy to legislate against the "evel" weapons that these scum use. Thousands of law abiding people are disadvantaged and turned into potential criminals, but the public as a whole feal that "something" is being done, so they feal safer until the next time the media prod them with the moral stick :twak:

[Chux]

and one day we realise we are straightjacketed by laws instituted as a result of someone wanting to sell more papers :rolleyes:

[mirage]

"Please. Lets put A letter Together."

No. Let's all write individual letters. MPs judge strength of opinion on a subject by the weight of their postbag. One letter weighs less than two, or ten.

Find the name of your MP here. (http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/)

Fax your MP for free here. (http://www.faxyourmp.com/)

The best result will always be to write a letter. MPs have staff to respond to electronic mail. They have to sign written replies. Write to your MP at the following address:

The Right Honourable (insert name here)
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Keep your letter short, polite and to the point. Don't waffle. Three or four lines will do the trick. Include your return address.

If it's been a while since you left school, write your letter as a Microsoft Word document first to check your spelling and grammar.

Do it. Do it now. Don't wait. Don't rely on someone else to do your fighting for you.

The time you spend arguing about this on BB is time during which you could have written three letters. We agree with you. Don't fritter away time preaching to the choir: Write a letter to your MP!

Why are you still here?

mirage

PS: In the 33 minutes since I posted the above message, I have written letters to both my MP and David Blunkett. I have also emailed my MP. (Blunkett does not have an email address).

What have you done to protect your hobby and your investment?

Get on with it!

mirage

PPS: I've just faxed my MP as well! Get active or lose your knives!

mirage

[Ophidian]

A knife is a tool, some tools can be used as weapons. Guns are weapons full stop.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you. The statement that you make above is on a par with the general public’s misconception that all knives are dangerous weapons.

I will concur that guns make excellent weapons and that a gangster with a gun is far more of a danger than one armed with a knife. But lets not forget that killing a fellow citizen is illegal, full stop. The type of gun favoured by gangsters (fully auto pistols, machine guns, sawn-off shotguns ect.) are already banned and illegal to own in the UK .

There are quite a large number of people in the UK who enjoy shooting sports and have never used a gun against any living creature, rather they shoot paper, metal or clay targets. The types of gun allowed are strictly controlled. You need to be a member of a shooting club (for target) and serve a probationary period before being accepted as a full member. Then if you want to apply for a Firearms certificate (to own your own gun/s), there is a lot of form filling, police checks, medical checks and 2 (or 3, if applying for a shotgun at the same time) signed references from people who have known you personally for more that 2 years(who themselves have to be of good character, Doctor, Lawyer, Business man ect.) and up to 8 signed passport sized photos. A home visit to interview you (as to suitably to own guns) and a check on security arrangements for storage of guns. You don’t have to be a member of a club to hunt, but all of the rest applies.

If you asked any one in the street, who is Britain’s most successful medal winner is, few would know. It is in fact Mick Gault, a target pistol shooter and Britain’s most successful medal winner in any sport, with eleven golds to his credit.



I agree totally with Martyn says and have been thinking along similar lines in regard to putting such people on an island. Punishment for crimes are far too soft. More attention should be given to the actual crime rather than the tool used. What are we going to do with stranglers…..ban the use of hands in public!!

Oh, and just because MP’s can go through life without having to cut anything other than their lunch time steak, does not mean that the rest of us do not have legitimate reason to have/use a knife for work and leisure. :)

[Raoul Duke]

OK I Will send a letter myself, What about the 1239 Members of britsh blades?

How will thy Know this is going to happen if they dont veiw this thread. This thread wont be veiwed by everbody its only been veiwed by a Quarter if that.

What about the Bush Crafters, Retailers, Etc. Etc.

Any chance a PM could be sent to each Member of B.B so as they log on they are made aware of the seriousness of the loss they may experience. The PM could Contain the Links to the Local MP's Address search, a few ideas what you might like to say , the law as it stands I dont know what do you guys think.

This could be benifitial.

At the minute i am trying to juggle a letter to my MP, this post, and trying to start two and keep three GG's (like jet engines) running, driving some big compressors and ripping gas out of the ground, and send it onshore, so you and all the MP's can be nice and cosy in your homes tonight, so i may be some time untill i look back here. Its getting a bit Busy so i got to go.

[Lord Farquhar]

The knife made me do it so ban the knife

The game made me do it so ban the game
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/29/dixons_manhunt/

Social and ethical degradation.....................nah mate the game/knife did it

sheet!

[Porcupine]

I am so sorry to hear of this, especially as this is probably is going to happen in Denmark very soon too.
A young american excahge student, was brutally assaulted by four(!) young second generation immigrant men a couple of days ago. He was hit in the chest with a (legal) pocket knife and in danger of dying for some time.
He made it and the scumbags have been caught, but now the police are calling for banning carrying of any kind of knife what so ever in public places (including cars, etc.) and buildings with public access.

I know all the reasons as to why our police and politicians react this way, but I have to admit I think they dumb as bricks! :censored:

I wrote a letter to the minister of justice last time they wanted to do this and I will again.
But I fear it will have little effect! Perfectly normal citizens will be criminals for carrying a tool and the :censored: politicans will continue to make knife and firearms laws ever stricter. What a sorry state our countries are in! :(

[Hellz]

When we write to our MP's (cheers for those links Mirage) should those in the BCCA sign off as members of the British Custom Cutlers Association? For example:

Yours sincerely


(Name Here)
Member of the British Custom Cutlers Association

Would that help make us look more respectable? (I'm not saying you lot need to be made to look more respectable... ;) )

Just a thought

Hellz

[ZDP-189]

Please no. While I agree with the sentiment, I want no part of this process that draws unwanted attention to knife collectors at this difficult time. Imagine some of the posts on BB repeated out of context in the press.

[Adi]

Leve it well alone.If they think it's a flick knife they can't ban it a second time!

[Martyn]

The knife made me do it so ban the knife

The game made me do it so ban the game
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/29/dixons_manhunt/

Social and ethical degradation.....................nah mate the game/knife did it

sheet!

Well, you know, just so long as "something" made them do it - anything really, they just cant admit it was thier fault and take responsibility for it. It's always someone elses fault.

The problem is, there are far too many people eager to believe them in thier search for a reason for this happening and hunt for a quick, appeasing solution. I even think they realise that they are finding wrong reasons and comming up with solutions for them. It's far easier to blame a game and ban a knife, than to tackle the degredation of society.

[Martyn]

BTW, whatever you do, do it as an individual. BB is not a politicaly motivated website, nor will it ever be. There wont be any mass mailings of members, or BB movement. You're an individual, you have a voice, you have a pen, you have the right to wite to your MP and express your sentiments - use it!

[David Morgan]

Just heard on the radio that they want to ban carrying all knives!
B@llocks, I've just ordered another sebbie!!!!!!!!

Adi, for the benefit of those who want to write to our MPs and the Home Secretary could you (or anyone else who heard) tell us when and where you heard this, who said it (government spokesman directly, reported, rumoured) etc. Also has anyone seen any similar statement I print. It might help in writing to be able to cite an article/statement; 'I am concerned about the statement made by Mr X of the HO in the Daily Y...' rather than 'Please don't stop us carrying knives!'.

Cheers,

David.

[David Morgan]

Just another thought, does anyone know a way of finding out the voting record of MP's? If your MP voted against other pieces of ill-thought out reaction legislation (dangerous dogs act, new firearms legislation, and the like) then that might affect the choice of langauge.

[Yog]

[QUOTE=David Morgan]Adi, for the benefit of those who want to write to our MPs and the Home Secretary could you (or anyone else who heard) tell us when and where you heard this, who said it (government spokesman directly, reported, rumoured) etc. [QUOTE]

A taped recording of David Blunket (Home Secratary) was played on Radio 1's mid morning news program, and a slightly longer version on their lunchtime news program.

In it the Home Sec explained that the law as it stood allowed for a manditory 5 year sentence for carrying a gun in public, and as it had been a success (hmm ?) he was considering making the sentence for carrying a knife in public the same, because he said that thugs had switched from carrying guns to carrying knives (Hmm ... possible credibility gap there me thinks).

There were overtures that this might be extended to all knives, but was not expicitly said.

In the slightly longer lunchtime recording the Home Sec did allow that the length of the sentence for carrying a knife in public would "likely" vary depending on how the knife was being handled at the time.

[Little claw]

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you. The statement that you make above is on a par with the general public’s misconception that all knives are dangerous weapons.

I will concur that guns make excellent weapons and that a gangster with a gun is far more of a danger than one armed with a knife. But lets not forget that killing a fellow citizen is illegal, full stop. The type of gun favoured by gangsters (fully auto pistols, machine guns, sawn-off shotguns ect.) are already banned and illegal to own in the UK .

There are quite a large number of people in the UK who enjoy shooting sports and have never used a gun against any living creature, rather they shoot paper, metal or clay targets. The types of gun allowed are strictly controlled. You need to be a member of a shooting club (for target) and serve a probationary period before being accepted as a full member. Then if you want to apply for a Firearms certificate (to own your own gun/s), there is a lot of form filling, police checks, medical checks and 2 (or 3, if applying for a shotgun at the same time) signed references from people who have known you personally for more that 2 years(who themselves have to be of good character, Doctor, Lawyer, Business man ect.) and up to 8 signed passport sized photos. A home visit to interview you (as to suitably to own guns) and a check on security arrangements for storage of guns. You don’t have to be a member of a club to hunt, but all of the rest applies.

If you asked any one in the street, who is Britain’s most successful medal winner is, few would know. It is in fact Mick Gault, a target pistol shooter and Britain’s most successful medal winner in any sport, with eleven golds to his credit.


I know where you're coming from and I wasn't having a go at the shooting public, having been one of them myself. The 1988 (?) post hungerford legislation just made it too hard for me to continue shooting, due to my age and financial situation but I'm all in favour of responsible gun ownership and use. I used to shoot at school (we had our own armoury!) but I couldn't continue as the school was not a club. I believe there were 5 million licensed shooters in this country before that legislation and I would have happily joined their ranks.

This and the facts of what you said doesn't reduce guns to anything less than what they are. The fact that guns can be (are frequently are) put to legitimate non-violent use doesn't change the fact that they are weapons. Full stop. I have been on the other side of this argument more time than I care to remember and would stand side by side with you in arguing for the right of law abiding British citizens to own and use firearms for any legitimate purpose, including raw, unadulterated fun and stretching as far as use for personal defence if necessary.

The reason I said what I did is that guns are designed as weapons. It doesn't matter what you or I argue about their legitimate place in a peaceful society, they cannot serve any other practical purpose. Most (if not all) practical uses of guns are as a weapon, whether for pest control, hunting or police use. Non-practical uses, (i.e. sport and leisure or ornamental) are arguably both unecessary and a perversion of their intended use. Sporting models may have been modified beyond belief and be used only for punching paper, but there is no defence for having a gun without a good reason (even if it is leisure) which is why the penalties are so tough. Other weapons in this category (pure weapon) might include bows and crossbows. The fact that they are weapons, however, doesn't negate their legitimate use, IMHO.

Knives, axes, sticks, etc. may be used as weapons but, with exceptions, are not designed or intended purely as weapons. This fact doesn't nullify the fact of their misuse, but it should mitigate the carrying of them somewhat.

Or do you think that I should get 5 years for being in possession of a calypso jr, without the defence of 'good reason'?

[Little claw]

he was considering making the sentence for carrying a knife in public the same, because he said that thugs had switched from carrying guns to carrying knives

Surely this would mean that all the thugs who have been "successfully" weaned off guns would now revert back to using them as there would be no benefit in carrying a lesser weapon?

[David Morgan]

Thanks Yog.

[mirage]

To find out how your MP votes, go to this site. (http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/)

What have you done today to protect your knife rights?

mirage

[Ophidian]

Thanks for clearing that up.

On the subject of knives, I think it would be far more sensible if responsible adults like everyone on this forum, where allowed to carry whatever they liked as personal cutlery. We all know what is reasonable and what is just over the top. I wouldn’t even object to applying for a knife carrying permit if that was deemed the way to go. Criminals, druggies and other violent people need not apply.

But I would introduce an automatic minimum 5 -10 year jail sentence for “misuse” ranging from threatening to stab someone to actually stabbing them. If they die from their injuries, then an automatic 20 year sentence.

If people thought they ran the risk of a lengthy sentence then they would be very careful about where and when they carried a knife! It would for example be stupid to take one out on a pub crawl with you.

[Chux]

Criminals, druggies and other violent people need not apply.

Criminals, druggies and other violent people would not apply but they would still carry whatever they fancy.



But I would introduce an automatic minimum 5 -10 year jail sentence for “misuse”
ranging from threatening to stab someone to actually stabbing them. If they die from their injuries, then an automatic 20 year sentence.

Sounds fine but then you getting that daft crowd that doesn't think you should lock up dangerous people. They'd rather reduce the freedom of society as a whole in a vain attempt to have everyone live nicely together than actually lock up people who have proven that they can't abide by society's rules.

[Yog]

Criminals, druggies and other violent people would not apply (for a permit to carry) but they would still carry whatever they fancy.
.

What Ophidian was suggesting (if I read him right), is not a permit to keep knives away from the crims, they wouldn't take any notice any way, but to give freedoms back to the law abiding citizens that would wish to carry a pocket knife.

I think it is a great idea, as it would remove the worry I have every time I put a 2" locking folder in my pocket when I'm not at work.
On the other hand I don't think it stands a hope in h*ll of becoming a reality because if somebody with this hypathetical permit did commit a crime with a knife it would mean that (in the eyes of the media/public) some official responsible for issuing permits would at least be partially responsible for the crime. And I can't see for one momment somebody in authority wanting that sort of responsibility for one second.

[Chux]

I know but I fear that the current government isn't big into giving out new freedoms, particularly in relation to such unpopular things as knives.

The idea of a permit for carry does have some appeal but I could see many ways in which it could just be used as a stick to beat 'us' with (on the assumption we'd all qualify for permits). The first thing that springs to mind is the immediate suspicion that could be focused on permit holders when anybody commits a crime involving a sharp item. Consider a situation in which a crime was comitted with a knife by someone without a permit. Chances are one of the first things to happen would be all the permit owners in the vicinity would have to provide information on their location and maybe surrender their tools for tests. I think quite a few problems with the permit idea were aired in this thread (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2773).

[Yog]

I'm not sure what good it will do, but my local MP and the Home Secratary will both be recieving letters tomorrow.

:cool:

[Raoul Duke]

Ok I've gone away, calmed down and cooled down. Sorry for Kicking off.

I must admitt i was upset and angry at the way this Thread looked and still may go.

I am still finding it hard to accept the non locking case law locking thing as the legeslation behind the law (i read it here somewhere) saw locks as a safety device and acceptable.

The threat of not being able to have a 3" slipjoint was just to much (especially after so much thought and concideration, not to mention the anticipation of "THE PENKNIFE" )and i snapped and started typing frantically.

It just came as a big blow. IT still might.

I dont Know that much about politics. I've avoided it most of my life. Never Voted, never even put myself on the electoral roll. I've never realy trusted politicians.

My problem is i am not that old (or intelegent, Notice tht my vocab gets more insulting as i argue more) and i do have the odd impetuous outbursts sometimes. Its been a long hard Day.

This may have Also upset me as i have been designing my own 3" folder that doesnt lock but it also can't fold on your fingers, with some other realy cool bit thrown in for good measure. I decided that i would have to make this myself, for myself and keep it a close guarded secret with the people i feel that can be trusted with it, as cant even trust that it wont be misused. I chose not to even discuss it here on B.B as i feel that if it was made or coppied and mass produced it would change the Law and we would not be trusted with anything. There are people who come here from time to time with undesirable motives.

I'm interested in finding out more of the Facts before I write a letter ( I already did one but it doen't seem right to me yet. I want it to count. Not be taken in the wrong way.

Cheers,

Raoul

[Ophidian]

Ok, maybe a permit is not the answer. I honestly don’t know what is.
All that I’ll say is that if someone does a crime, especially premeditated,
then they should pay dearly (as a deterrent to others). It should not matter
what type of knife is used as it becomes a weapon once it is used in an
illegal manner.

[The General]

As an individual voter and concerned 'subject', I have sent an e-mail to my local MP expressing my concerns on the matter. I made a point of not bringing BB into the open. It would only cloud the issue.

[David Morgan]

Mirage, these are some excellent resources, thank you very much. My letters will be in the post tomorrow

[Ophidian]

Until those in power wake up and realise that it is the bad behaviour that is the root of the problem and stop criminalizing everyday items we will continue to see these ridiculous bans.

The hard-core criminals will continue to use their guns and other dangerous weapons while the amateur criminals will adapt other every day items into weapons…. Traditional walking sticks will be banned in public, replaced with modern lightweight plastic versions with a loop handle so it can’t be used in the manner of a shepherd’s crook and a rubber foot the size of a tennis ball to prevent stabbing injuries. Trekking poles would be banned within the town and city, as would golf clubs and skiing poles.

Those evil things that are a constant danger on the streets when carried by women or other short people and threaten to poke your eye out will be banned…yes umbrellas
(I personally would not be seen dead with one…I wear one of my Akubra bush hats when it rains).

Then there will be a ban on belts with heavy buckles and those chains that seem fashionable to attach your wallet to belt.

Pens and pencils will be made with a special collar so that they can’t penetrate deeper than 1cm.

Where will it all end????????????????

[Dave Barker]

I just read on one of the headlines in the paper here that a 17 year old boy has been murdered by his best mate.

He and his mate had been playing some kind of computergame that involves dissembowling your enemies.... so he though he would try with a meat cleaver.

It worked. I think that this was in Norway in the areas populated by refugees... I could be wrong. If the mods or admin guys think that this should be removed due to lack of substanciated facts then please feel free to do so.

It is not just england and the question could be asked about the banning of games and other media that publisise and glamourise violence, killing and mass murder. Some peoples are more susceptable to this interfering with the way they think.

As i said, please remove this if you think it inappropriate.

[Little claw]

Dave,

Sounds like you're referring to the Manhunt (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3265980) murder.

Happened in Leicester. I believe the victim was 14 and the perpetrator 17. Does that sound right?

I reckon that there's more likely to be a link between a computer game and violence than the carrying or availablity of knives, since, as Ophidian said, it is behaviour, not objects, that is the problem. Experts have said that violent behaviour is morelikely to be fostered by experience of real violence, rather than simulated.

The effect of films is supposedly lesser due to the fact that it is not interactive.

I believe that the US army used a computer game to desensitise troops from the effects of killing. No reason it wouldn't work on kids.

[ANDYLASER]

Letter to MP sent.

[David Morgan]

Ditto! Btw, If you are writing to your MP don't just tell them want you think, ask them to do something; "Anything you could do to bring these concerns to the home secretary's attention would be appreciated" or similar; they could write to Mr Blunkett, or even raise the matter in the house. Make them work for you!

[999]

Letter sent.

[Slidje]

crime is crime, wether you use a fist, broom, milk bottle, knife or a machinegun. the idea that banning knives will stop knife crime is laughable. banning guns didnt stop gun crime.

video games do not cause violent behaviour, in fact they probably stop it. games are an outlet, a fantasy world where you can let out bad feelings in a safe enviroment or just be entertained.
if you banned all violence in entertainment you would just drive it underground and create a sub culture like germany.

sure, british society is getting more violent, but thats more to do with a lack of decent fathers in the household, poor education system and a lack of police.

how many of you would go to the police with a problem? around here in manchester we generally mistrust, avoid the police and sort things out ourselves. thats why violent crime is on the rise i think.

this kid that stabbed the other didnt turn to anyone for help or advice. instead he went to his school with a weapon to sort his problems out. a person with that kind of personality would have used anything available to do harm to the other kid.

[David Morgan]

Write to the home secretary and your MP and say just that! Power to the people!

[gurushaun]

Letters sent!!

Shaun

[wayne]

Hi.

can any of you good guys that sent a letter to Mr Blunkett let us know if you receive an answer.

I'm not yet convinced that our letters will see the light of day. i have written to my local conservative MP about hunting with hounds twice and have yet to receive a reply. i have voted in every election since i was 18. i you don't exercise your vote then have you the right to complain about the goverment?

most MPs see the plebs as too lasy and dumb to care what happens to them. the policitians do not see a person refusing to vote as a protest, they choose to see a lazy apathetic population.

[BorderReiver]

Letters to your MP should contain the phrase

"Please ask the secretary of state for ...... "Add the appropriate dept and your question.

Then the MP must ask your question and send you a reply containing the answer of the relevant minister.

Mind you the answer is invariably :censored: platitudes and means sod all.

But at least you put "the powers that be" to a little bother,which is always worth the effort. :biggthump

[999]

I received a reply today. Unfortunately it was stating that my MP was on holiday 'til the 18th-will follow up if/when I receive a personal reply.

[Chux]

At least you know it arrived.

[narsil]

I think that getting envolved with issues which concern you is much more important than putting a tick in a box every few years. MP's are supposed to represent every member of their constituancy not just those who vote for them. I would encourage anbody to write to their MP's or other representatives about any issue which they feel strongly about and to continue to write untill they recieve a response which adresses their concern.

Now I would not presume to tell anyone what to say, I'm just pointing out that you are entitled to say it and that its not unreasonable to expect your elected representitives to listen. If they don't than you should bager them until they do. Although from what I can gather a lot of MP's are pretty good at at lest pretending to take an interest. It is probably best to take as reasonable a line as possible and avoid the temptation to go into rant mode.

I see nothing wrong with abstaining from voting if you have no preference for a particular candidate or feel that none of the available candidiates would adequately represent you. Thats not apathy, its more of a decision than just ticking a box at random because you feel that its your civic duty.

[Chux]

But would politicians see it as a protest if you refused to vote? It can also end up with a party you specifically did not want getting in simply because the (few?) people that support it do so at the ballot box and therefore represent a majority of the people who voted, although this is a minority of the population. :confused:

It is likely as people become disaffected with the major parties the growth of special interest and independent parties will grow. The question is then whether this occurs quickly enough to prevent things going very wrong in the meantime.

I don't know if politicians view spoiled ballots as protest votes; more likely they just assume its people being too stupid to vote for them. :censored:

[keith_beef]

crime is crime, wether you use a fist, broom, milk bottle, knife or a machinegun. the idea that banning knives will stop knife crime is laughable. banning guns didnt stop gun crime.

I absolutely agree. The problem, though, as it concerns us, is that the knife has become classed in many peoples' minds as purely a weapon, and not a tool, and that so few people carry a pocket knife now.

So, the gov't tightens the restrictions on what we can carry around freely, using the "justification" that "these things are dangerous in the wrong hands"

Can you imagine what would have happened a few years ago, if the gov't had tried to legislate to stop ram-raiders from using cars and vans to break open shops? Of course, a car being driven with the intent to break open a shop window, or with the intent to mow down a pedestrian, is little different to a crow bar or a gun. The effect is the same.

But so many people rely on cars to get around, so many people own cars and use them on a daily basis, and so much money is generated by the sector, that the gov't first of all wouldn't dream of such a ban, and secondly wouldn't be able to get such a ban through the house.

We're too small a population to have a big impact.


video games do not cause violent behaviour, in fact they probably stop it. games are an outlet, a fantasy world where you can let out bad feelings in a safe enviroment or just be entertained.
if you banned all violence in entertainment you would just drive it underground and create a sub culture like germany.

I'm not altogether convinced by such catharsis theory. Nor am I convinced by the idea that depicted violence leads to real violence. My experience is limited to myself. Looking at pictures of naked ladies doesn't induce me to go out a rape women, and playing the odd first-person-shooter doesn't send me into some berserker rage. But then, maybe I'm just unusually well-adjusted. On the other hand, I am quite sure that there are a lot of complete basket-cases out there, just waiting for that little push to send them over the edge...



sure, british society is getting more violent, but thats more to do with a lack of decent fathers in the household, poor education system and a lack of police.

Now I'm not at all convinced that society is becoming more violent. Maybe there are periods of relative civil calm, say 1945 to 1955, which give the impression that there was some sort of "golden age" of polite society. I can well imagine that after the second war, the people who had to take part in it and their direct offspring would have been so marked by firsthand experience of violence, that there would be some sort of rejection of all violence. But then, after a while, things return to the normal level of barely contained savagery beneath a thin veneer of polite society. Then out come all the "it wan't like that in my day" statements. How is today's society more violent than that which saw the Teddy Boys, the Mods and Rockers fighting on Briton beach. Punch-ups on Friday and Saturday night in the town centre have been part of the norm for a long time in the UK, and muggings have been reported since Victorian times.

No, as far as I'm concerned, what has changed radically in the last couple of decades is the softening of a large section of society. A general delegation of responsibilities to paid representatives and a refusal to accept that there are, necessarily, savages roaming the streets. From accepting that the streets can be dangerous, we have a society where many people take their strong desire for a touchy-feely world of niceness for reality. They dress up as lambs and go out into a world wolves. Then they cry when they meet the big bad wolf.


how many of you would go to the police with a problem? around here in manchester we generally mistrust, avoid the police and sort things out ourselves. thats why violent crime is on the rise i think.

The polarisation of society leads to a large population of lambs being targetted by the wolves, and a smaller population (to which you seem to belong) of people who have outgrown the lamb stage, have grown ram's horns and are prepared to fight back when the wolf comes round.



this kid that stabbed the other didnt turn to anyone for help or advice. instead he went to his school with a weapon to sort his problems out. a person with that kind of personality would have used anything available to do harm to the other kid.

The youngster was a wolf cub. What can you do? We know they're out there, and if you, or your kids, behave like lambs in from of the wolves, then they will get eaten.

Grow horns.

KKK.

[narsil]

Good post Keith :biggthump

I agree that it is a mistake to assume that society is becoming more violent. It is certainly true that we have far greater access to multi-media news than ever before so we tend to hear more about it. Eighty years ago, people would have been much less likely to hear about crime outside of thier immedate community. Now there are hundreds of channels to fill and violent crime stories are a good way to fill them.

You only have to look to the victorian era to see how society has changed in quite a short time. Laws and punishments were far harsher than they are now, and percieved standards of public morals were 'higher' at least by daily mail standards, the death penalty was commonly applied for relatively minor offences and prison and workhouse conditions were positivly inhumane.

But was Victorian London a safer place to live than in modern times? no it was not, there were levels of crime and violence which we can barely comprehend today.

The problem today is that we are so safe that many of us have lost the ability to rationalise risk. Every time there is a train crash people are scared to travel by train and go by car instead, despite the fact that road travel is about ten times more dangerous than rail travel.

Why are we terrified of terrorists but perfectly happy to take our lives in our hands by crossing the road? When was the last time there was a public outcry about road safety?

[mirage]

See the reply from my MP here. (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?p=66330#post66330)

mirage