When is a lock not a lock?

[Graham]

Reading the Shing thread re. locking devices and following the Spyderco penknife saga I have been trying to develop many types, of locking mechanisms none of which I am happy with yet. Sal said that his new penknife would slip less than standard slipjoints, this got me thinking, so I found an old linerlock I had made a few years ago on which the liner lock sliped when under reasonable pressure I filed this lock so that it slipped at around the same weight as would cause my conventional slipjoint to slip. Is this knife now still a lockknife? If it is'nt such a lock has one major advantage over a slipjoint, a slip joint once passed halfway closed powers the blade closed a linerlock especially one with a ball bearing detent actually slows the blade so any injury caused by the closeing sould be less. Has any one ever decided what resistance a lock should have to make it an illegal lock, for example an air rifle in the Uk is limited to 12ft pounds of pressure once it goes above 12ft pounds it becomes a firearm I doubt it will be that straight foreward.

Any thoughts Gents.

Cheers,

Graham.

[ZDP-189]

I tried this (unsuccessfully) with a Spyderco Merlin. It failed mostly because it was a rivetted construction, but then I also filed too much off. Here's what I tried to do:

http://www.l2i.org/slw3c9u5q9.gif

[shing]

How about an inertia lock like on a car seat belt. The blade can only close at a certain speed and stops it closing too fast otherwise its locked. It would comply with the letter of the law and still provide a good safety feature, can anyone engineer one as it sounds a bit complicated to me.

[Andy]

I remember this coming up a while back along with the idea of how much tang type thing you could have in the handle. IIRC there is no set pressure that must make a slip joint fold. I have a very stiff slip joint which has never been questioned

[ANDYLASER]

I believe a lock is classified as anything that needs an additional operation (activation)in addition to the actual closing. E.g. button press, lever push, thingamy twiddle etc.

[trojanargus]

Why is a slipjoint called so ? After all its actually pivots on an axis, it doesn't slip at all, so shouldn't it be called a 'Pivot'? :confused:

Sorry, no hi-jack intended.

Surely, if anything stops the knife from pivoting, its a lock? ...isn't it? :confused:

[APG1961]

Why is a slipjoint called so ? After all its actually pivots on an axis, it doesn't slip at all, so shouldn't it be called a 'Pivot'? :confused:

Sorry, no hi-jack intended.

Surely, if anything stops the knife from pivoting, its a lock? ...isn't it? :confused:

I have always understood that the correct term for a knife that does not lock but has a spring in the back should be called a spring back. We have all started using the “Americanism” slip joint, which I believe, is incorrect.

A true slip joint does NOT have a spring in the back, but relies on friction between either two scales or a slot in the knife handle, usually a piece of antler or bone.

Slip joints rely on friction. Spring backs rely on spring tension.

I stand to be corrected on this, but having met the world renowned, pocket knife maker, Stan Shaw, I can assure you he would never describe one of his knives as a slip joint!!!!!

[trojanargus]

A true slip joint does NOT have a spring in the back,

...but the joint doesn't slip either :confused:

[Underhay]

Spring back does seem a better description to me, but then who am I to say :D
As far as safety is concerned, I think a spring back with a slowing mechanism would be safer and legal. Would it be possible to build in friction to the mechanism, so it doesn't spring closed so rapidly?
Obviously it would be best if this only slowed the blade when closing, and not make it damned hard to open ;)

Just my thoughts.

Duncan

[Andy]

I'll go with Stan on this one (wish I could afford his stuff)

[Danzo]

Muchos Kudos to makers doing their best.

:biggthump

I'll just quote you the relevent Law bit:

It must be readily and immediately foldable at all times simply by the folding process.

If it can lock it is illegal. Full stop.

:bad:

Danzo

[stonehard]

my lagouile has a slip joint that is really hard to close they make 3" versions and are very safe to use due to the special spring design

[Graham]

Thanks for the replies gents, please keep them coming. In the meantime I shall make a knife with a slip'in linerlock I'll call it this for want of a better name I will loosley base it on the Spyderco Penknife and the lovely carbon fibre mock up Yog produces in the Spyderco Penknife thread. After I have made it I will show it to 2 friends of mine who are Magistrates and ask them what their opinion of it is, and what they would do if they were asked to judge someone found to be carrying it. I shall make it of 01 steel and use blue G10 for the scales, blue I think is less menacing than black to the sheeple. This should be interesting and depending on their replies I may make a set of black carbon fibre scales for it to see if this changes their opinions of the knife. I'll let you know what the results are.

Cheers,

Graham.

[shing]

I was toying with the idea of doing a "failed" linerlock i.e., one that slip under pressure like a slip joint myself. It was actually to see if a slip joint could be made similer with less components and a more versatile blade shape.

[madhaha]

I have a US "superknife" that has a crappy lock that can be made to fail with enough thumb pressure. Perhaps someone would like it to see how to make a legal lock knife? :P

[Little claw]

What about an 'active safety?'

Rather like the firing pin safety in a gun, but with the opposite function. When holding the knife for work, depressing a button or lever that moves a block into the path of the blade. It releases under spring recoil so that it can be folded.

or what about the barry wood or x,y,z designs (or balisong, theoretically) which can be closed by the folding process at all times but which won't happen if you're holding it?

[Raoul Duke]

Ive been concidering getting a Svord Peasant Knife
http://www.svord.com/SvordMainFrameset.htm

I was hoping to have it as an EDC as it doesn't have a lock.

The sharpened edge is just a tad over 3" (i've emailed the maker to check this) but this could be reground without much effort to a sharpened edge of 3"

But for arguments sake lets just say the blade is 3" sharpened edge, ( or has been modded so.)

I still think it is a cross betwwen a lock knife and a fixed blade, because if you hold or grip the knife you will stop the blade folding buy stopping the spine from moving.

The spine may , in a perversed court of law, be argued as a fixed blade. I dont think it is a fixed blade as there is a clearly a handle and a pivot thus would make the spine part of the blade, and the pivot would lend itself towards folding.

But I still think that if the 3" law could be twisted to exclude lock knives, then the same exemption for folding pocket knives could also be argued, to exclude friction folders, as you are gripping the handle, and stopping the spine moving, therefore stopping the blade folding. Therfore not "readily and immediately foldable AT ALL TIMES simply by the folding process"

Infact, I even think that knives with choils (spyderco penknife) could be argued that because of the choil if you gripped it hard enough you could stop the blade from folding.

I want to carry something a bit more sturdy than a SAK but The law can be twisted or argued to suit.

Oh, why not, even a SAK is not readily foldable at all times as if you've got your fingers around the handle the blade cannot fold all the way into the handle as it has just embedded itself in to your finger bones. :D

I suppose this all depends on your/ sorry the courts definition of folding.

Comments?

Oh my god I think i have just had an idea for a completly legal knife that couldent be argued as anything other than what the law exactly states. I has nothing to do with the designs i just mentioned, I'm of to do some drawings. :biggthump

[Little claw]

Therfore not "readily and immediately foldable AT ALL TIMES simply by the folding process".

I get where you're coming from and I agree that it could be a problem and I agree that this requirement could be a problem, for the very reason that you mentioned next. I also tend to agree that if someone was going to prosecute you for this knife they would argue that it is a fixed blade with a folding handle/sheath feature, rather than arguing that it was not a pocket knife because of the condition above.

Infact, I even think that knives with choils (spyderco penknife) could be argued that because of the choil if you gripped it hard enough you could stop the blade from folding.

The problem is that we are trying to predict whether our knives would be legal by the statment at the top, and the statement at the top is nonsense if you take it to the logical extremes that we are. No knife which is being held (except in a specific fashion - with the path of the blade clear - ironically, this is the grip commonly used when using slipjoints or razors as weapons) is "readily and immediately foldable AT ALL TIMES simply by the folding process". The reason is that your fingers are in the way. A swiss army knife, held in a saber grip, is not "readily and immediately foldable AT ALL TIMES simply by the folding process", because your fingers are in the way, yes they may get cut, but that isn't the point. THis condition is not there to ban a safety feature but a feature that is considered to give the knife the property of a weapon. with this in mind, the very knives intended to be excluded from the ban are included because the words do not completely (or properly) define what a non locking knife is. Also, the degree of folding (or 'foldable') is not specified, is it a few degrees (which pretty much removes the ability to stab), 90 degrees where by a device may still be included to protect the fingers of fully folded? When a knife is fully folded it is not longer "foldable", therefore even a knife that could magically fold through your fingers would be illegal, no?

I believe in law there are several tests which can or should be applied when things aren't 100% clear, one of which is the "common sense" test. I realise that since the case law that restricted carry of locker we don't have much faith in the common sense of the courts, but I don't think that a swiss army knife will ever be found to fall foul of this law. The UK penknife is essentially the same in operation as an SAK and I doubt this test would find it illegal. If anyone tried to prove it so, my defence would be to attack the logic of "readily and immediately foldable AT ALL TIMES simply by the folding process".

[Basemetal]

Very interesting. I've had a few folders that have been difficult to open and correspondingly difficult to close. (LArge Kissing Crane Sodbuster).

Is the idea of low folding resistence inherent in the term "readily foldable"?

If not, increasing the folding resistence, even by means of a switchable "non-lock" may provide increased practicality/safety while avoiding the "lock" pitfall.

:bandit:

[Raoul Duke]

Curses!

I have just ordered a few svord peasant knifes, and a gents peasant knife folders, on the presumption that if It has no lock, then it foldable.

I personally belive that friction folders are readily avaliable folders at all times, You woulden't/ cant hold a swiss army knife in a saber grip to fold it over your fingers, you would change the nature of your operational grip so you should, in turn, be able to change your grip to allow folding of a friction folder or choiled slipjoint.

If the argument was used to say a friction folder was a fixed blade with a folding sheath feature then i would argue that a fixed blade must be removed from its sheath to be used buy definition of a sheath and ask them to remove the blade given only the knife ,and no tools to do it with, as i would not carry a friction folder and a screw driver together. A screw driver in your pocket could land you in trouble alone in the wrong circumstances.

If the argument was used to say a friction folder was a fixed blade with a folding handle then i would laugh all the way to the looney bin.

It is the 3" of sharpened edge and lack of lock that i have, and would try to focus on, and the changing of grip argument to allow folding of any type of folding knife, if i were ever to be in the docks. plus i would also argue that if a friction folder had no spine it would be dangerous.

I would try to take it to via the health and safety route, something my company have hammered in to my head for years. I am a risk assessor as part of my job. The only knives that we are allowed to use are fixed or locking blades and we have to do lots of paperwork before we can concider using a knife. Slipjoints are BANNED. ( this has got to be one of the few times i could kiss my Bosses :D )
Trouble is as i work offshore, when i am on Englands soil i do not have the tradesmans genuine reason for carry :(

Little claw, your posts are seriously intense :biggthump .

[Little claw]

...I'll take that as a compliment :D

those peasant knives look really nice so I would'nt worry either way. What's more, the fact that you've made an effort ( and perhaps have a genuine beleif) to meet the law plus the (fact) that you are a decent fellow shouold go a long way to making sure all you get is a slap on the wrist from the bobby who finds it, if that ever happens...

[Danzo]

It is really quite simple folks.

:rolleyes:

However you all try to get round the law the simple fact is this: if it is capable of locking then it falls within the prohibition. If it doesn't lock it is OK.

:deal:

However stiff your tool is it is quite legal as long as it folds in half without recourse to a lock release.

Live with it. It isn't going to change and however imaginative you get it will still be illegal. You can hide from the law but you can't run, I'm afraid.

:bad:

Danzo

[Danzo]

.....and littleclaw.....

[Danzo]

Thank you.

:approve:

Danzo

[Tantalus]

lol Danzo

thanks for clearing that up :biggthump

Tant

[Little claw]

Danzo...

my pleasure.... :)

...what for? :confused:

[richslaney]

"When is a Lock not a Lock"
When it fails and the knife closes on your fingers... Ouch :yikes:

"Why is is called a Slip-Joint"
Cos the flippin thing 'slips', closes and the blade cuts into your finger 'joints'. :yikes: :yikes:

Pathetic I know, but I couldn't resist... :D

[Danzo]

Danzo...

my pleasure.... :)

...what for? :confused:

I had just marked a big pile of essays on the relationship between Actus Reus and Causation in the law of Murder. I think I simply marked your post........

:rolleyes:

It was well written with attention paid to both your analysis of the law and your evaluation of its application, if that is any consolation.

I'd give it an 'A'

:D

Danzo

[Little claw]

thank you :o

maybe I missed my calling...?

lucky you weren't marking for spelling and grammar, though... ;)

[shing]

I did law at A level very interesting, its a good job its not black and white or all the high paid lawyers will be out of a job, shame!