Why do Scandis have such short blades?

[Underhay]

I apologise for my ignorance, but I have searched for an answer to this question without luck.

I can see why Scandinavian knives have a generous sized handle, because thick gloves are needed in the extreme cold. Also I can see why a nice secure sheath without awkward fastenings would be vital in the conditions.

However, I am interested to know why most of these knives have such a short blade. Please enlighten me.

Thanks
Duncan

[Basemetal]

What's a long blade for?

..and historically steel was rare and expensive.

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-064.gif

[ZDP-189]

'Snot true. Not always, at least.

http://www.kniv.net/trond/bilder/wootzknife.jpg

For scale, this one has a big handle.

[Sajuma]

Old rule is that the handle is measured with your palm. Width of your palm is enough but 1-2cm is often added. Also for normal EDC puukko the blade is from 5 - 10 cm.
Longer blade would be often unpractical. Lenght of your index finger is enough for the tasks you need in everyday dutys.
Lets say that function makes form.

There are longer puukko's out there but often they are for decorative/status or other reasons. Finnish soldiers have used Puukko in combat in all wars we have had. Finnish army dont distribute puukko's since everyone brings their own or orders one during duty. Often those puukko's have longer blades since they get abused and a lot.
One Finnish general said ones that for soldier you cant give anything that he cant lose or brake. He said that if you give soldier two railroad tracks, if it's longer than one meters he will bend it and if it's shorter he will lose it...
Sorry I got bit off from topic.

Juha

[hootchi]

I always thought that it was because the scandinavians are quite fond of axes using them for alot of the larger jobs and smaller jobs a big knife could handle. They only need a small knife for the jobs too small for a skilled axe.

[Basemetal]

'Snot true. Not always, at least.

http://www.kniv.net/trond/bilder/wootzknife.jpg

For scale, this one has a big handle.


Sniff...not even scandi grind...sniff
;)

[Tacol]

Thanks Juha to present you "finger" theory.

I wanted to write it this morning but I felt it was your duty :D

Stéphane

[TLM]

Scandi is a working knife, outside butchring very few jobs require longer than 80 mm +- 30 blade. As Hootchi said axes are for heavier work or billhooks. Actually for winter use the handle should be of smaller diameter than for bare hand use. Originally the relative price of steel might have been a factor, then again collecting enough ore from the bottom of lakes or in bogs was not very difficult, though steel making is somewhat more complicated. (Good info on a swedish site http://www.forntidateknik.z.se/ ) . It is a result of fairly long evolution so it is difficult to state exact reasons for any feature.

TLM

[Tvividr]

I'd say that although most scandis seems to have blades with a length of about 7-10 cms, you will see anything between 3 cm (small woodcarving knife) to 25 cm (the big sami knife / niipa / leuko) bladelengths here in Norway. It all depends what you are going to use the knife for, but for general use you do not need a big blade. Personally I prefer and use blades with a length of the mentioned 7 -10 cms.

[Underhay]

Thanks for the informative replies :)


Lenght of your index finger is enough for the tasks you need in everyday dutys.
Lets say that function makes form. Sajuma

That's very true, and I have always thought they look very handy knives, but I've never handled one.

I can also see the point that if you have an axe all chopping duties are cared for by that, so a heavy blade isn't needed.


'Snot true. Not always, at least.

Thanks ZDP, for finding the first scandi sword I've seen! Just goes to show, that for every rule there's an exception :(

[handwerker]

An a little bit sarcastic remark:
Maybe, since these knives get actually used in daily life regularly, there is no place for the machismo of outdoor-knives a la Rambo.

[TLM]

there is no place for the machismo of outdoor-knives a la Rambo.

That type of machoism was not much seen but some of the knives used for "dressing" during the late 1800's were basically male jewelry and very elaborate.

TLM

[kniv-per]

I apologise for my ignorance, but I have searched for an answer to this question without luck.

I can see why Scandinavian knives have a generous sized handle, because thick gloves are needed in the extreme cold. Also I can see why a nice secure sheath without awkward fastenings would be vital in the conditions.

However, I am interested to know why most of these knives have such a short blade. Please enlighten me.

Thanks
Duncan


Hi Duncan ..

Many scandi knives are used for hunting purpose or for woodcarving..
A long blade are just ind the way .. :C

With a small blade, you can put more preasure on without gettin' hurt..

When you fiedldress an animal, a short blades are also much better to get around inside the body..

A short knife are more easy to carry in the field - don't get caught in brushes etc..

Just some good reasons ... ;)

[Underhay]

All these reasons for a short blade are very true :)

It really makes the so called survival knives you see for sale appear even more silly. It seems to me that they often have 8 inch plus blades!

When I asked the question I was struck by the handle to blade length proportions of most scandi knives. The blade seems to be less than 40% (and sometimes near 30%) of the knife length.

I have tended to make the blade 50% or greater when making my fixed blades, just because I thought it looked right. Since looking at the beautiful scandis on this forum, I'm thinking of making one to see how they feel to use.

I have found that a 4 to 5 inch blade is very handy for what I use knives for, but I have to admit to no knowledge of dressing animals in the field :(

[kniv-per]

Underhay,

Being in the knifebusiness, I have also learned that a handle of 10 - 12 cm will fit just about any hand, no matter size ..

It may sounds strange but a fact .. usefull for knifebuilders that sit around with a large blade and wonder how big a handle to make !!!

[Pz50]

Hello Duncan

I'm a Swedish knife maker and vice president in the Swedish Knife Makers Association. In Sweden and Scandinavia we have made knifes for hunting and fishing for many years. when we use knife for hunting we don't need a long blade. We need a short blade when take care of a mouse. Thats why we have short blades for knifes we are using. It is our tradition.

[akraven]

This a interesting thread. What is the reasoning behind the Leuku then. From what little I know (I am from Alaska) it is the traditional knife of the Saami who live up near or past the tree line. Apparently used for butchering,firewood etc. Compared to the other Scandinavian knives it is quite a bit larger obviuosly. One of the posters mentioned butchering a moose with a small knife. Most of the professional butchers I have seen use a 8-10" blade for breaking the animal down. Anyway can someone please give me the background why the Leuku is so much larger. Thank you very much!! Akraven

[Stuart Ackerman]

I have seen a man skin a giraffe using a pocketful of disposable SCALPEL blades..the blades only, as he did not have the handle...20 to 25 slices per blade.

[narsil]

It may just be a question of use. A small blade is good for general utility, carving, preparing food, skinning etc etc. I suspect that the Leuku is adapted for cutting birch saplings, a large blade itends to be more effective at cutting small diameter, springy branches and trunks than an axe.

[Kevin]

Just remember that a blade that is half as short will wear out twice as fast and need sharpening twice as much :D

[ggfh666]

Just remember that a blade that is half as short will wear out twice as fast and need sharpening twice as much :D
That will keep 'em busy on dark winter nights....and nothing on TV.

[JohanB]

The samis have short blades too, and they have bigger ones they use for chopping :)

[Trond]

This a interesting thread. What is the reasoning behind the Leuku then. From what little I know (I am from Alaska) it is the traditional knife of the Saami who live up near or past the tree line. Apparently used for butchering,firewood etc. Compared to the other Scandinavian knives it is quite a bit larger obviuosly. One of the posters mentioned butchering a moose with a small knife. Most of the professional butchers I have seen use a 8-10" blade for breaking the animal down. Anyway can someone please give me the background why the Leuku is so much larger. Thank you very much!! Akraven
Maybe i can be of assistance? :rolleyes:
The thing is... the samis has two knives, one as you rightly pointed out is a big one, the other one has a short blade like the ones we have beene talking about here. The big one is mostly used for rough jobs like cutting wood for the bonfire.
The small one is for the finer jobs.
Here in Norway they have a saying about people that want big blades :D :P

[kniv-per]

Here in Norway they have a saying about people that want big blades :D :P
AND ........ that is :huh: :S :huh: :P

[narsil]

they do a lot of chopping ;)

[Kevin]

Here in Norway they have a saying about people that want big blades :D :P


Its not the size that matters, its how you use it.

The bigger the blade, the less effort...a smaller blade means you have to work much harder :D

[Trond]

Its not the size that matters, its how you use it.

The bigger the blade, the less effort...a smaller blade means you have to work much harder :D
Yeah right, you just had to go there :rolleyes:

Nope that is not what they say ;) They actually says size matters :D

The bigger the blade, the less knowledge about using knives

[Underhay]

Thanks for the interesting information.
It would appear that if and when I go to Norway I should carry a very short knife :)

I was particularly interested to hear the Sami carry two knives. Part of the reason I was struck by the short blade length is that since I was thirteen I have used a kukri with13 inch blade for chopping up trees etc and I have found it to be an effortless and extremely useful knife to use. It would appear the Sami have a chopping blade and with most kukris there is a smaller blade for fine work, so the Nepalese and Sami have similar options available. Would I be correct in assuming that a lot of Scandinavians use an axe for chopping (instead of a large knife) in view of their Viking history?

Duncan

[narsil]

I reckon that if you have to chop or split a lot of big logs an axe is best. If you mainly work with smaller poles ( small diameter trees that is, not people from poland ) then a large knife is probably the better option.

Teh generaly recieved bushcraft wisdom is, of course, that the ideal combination is a medium sized knife plus a medium sized axe. The alternative is a large knife and a small knife. At the end of the day its difficult to come up with a definitive answer to what is 'best' since personal preference, cultural influences and specific environment and job will all haev a role to play.

The billhook is probably the most essentially 'british' chopper. Probably beacuse hedges and coppices are a very important feature of the traditional english rural economy. england hasn't had the extent of wild forests that scandinavia has for a very long tme.

[akraven]

Thanks for the info everyone. I really didn't want it to turn into a small vs big knife debate. I just thought it interesting how everybody so strongly defended the short blade Pukko's yet the what is apparently the largest indigenous group uses a large knife primarily. akraven

[TLM]

short blade Pukko's yet the what is apparently the largest indigenous group uses a large knife primarily

Not quite, as somebody said before the Sami use two knives, the big leuku is primarily for chopping, the small knife for everything else.

I think one of the reasions for the big knife is the use for twigs, an axe would be quite cumbersome there. Then again who knows, maybe it is just a habit someone started some hundreds of years ago and it stuck. Personally I like the small knife - large hatchet combination better. Really a matter of taste.

TLM

As an after thought, if you have to cut a lot of birch twigs in wintertime I would prefer the large leuku too.

[EdgePal]

The size of the knife, and the sharpening angle, depends on what your needs are. Your needs design the knife.
Scandinavian belt knifes are small and very sharp and have a sharpening angle about 20 degrees today.
Scandi people always carrying there knifes in their belts, both sexes. The knife was for daily use, both for eating and using as a tool during work. About 90 % of all scandi people was farmers for some centuries ago. On a farm you do not need a bigger knife then that in your belt.
Beside the belt knife they have many other knifes in different sizes and also many axes for different purposes. Those knifes was in their homes, in the stable or in the workshop. The small (8-12 cm) scandi belt knife is perfect to carry in your belt, it is not in your way, it is no trouble to carry it during hard work and it is usefull for everything you need a normal day at the office.
When a special need knocking at the door, the scandi people use bigger knifes or axes for that special purpose – but the belt knife was always there. Perfect in this environment.

The Same people have two knifes during the wintertime. The small one in the same way as the farmers (and the Vikings) and the bigger one (about 30 cm) for all other purposes who is happened during the winter. One of these things is cutting wood for the fire.

The knife was important for scandi people. The knife tells who you are, if you are rich or poor and (sometimes) where you came from, (especially in Norway). Scandi people knew that the belt knife shall have a stronger edge, about 23-24 degrees, that a knife for soft wood shall have an edge about 19 degrees and hard wood an angle about 22 degrees. That means that they have many different knifes. It meqns also that scandi people mostly also have a sharpener hanging together with the knife.

The scandi knifes today is the traditional belt knife size. Most people today do not knew that it have take more then 1000 years to develop this typical belt knife. Most things is forgotten – but still in use by carpenters, knife makers and other people who is interested of knifes and the use of knifes for different purposes. I think it is the same in most country’s. Talk with a carpenter about his knifes and how he use the knifes.

Today we have machines to do the work. The normal scandi people by things, they do not produce things as their forefathers did. Sharpening angles, blade design and blade sizes are soon forgotten, or are all ready forgotten by regular people in Scandinavia. Some still knew. But they are not so many of them left today. The knowledge their forefathers have is forgotten. People have problem to get a knife sharp, have problem to get a edge straight, have problem to sharpen and, sometimes, they do not knew what to use to get the knife sharp. If the knife gets dull, by a new one!

For some days ago I talk with a woman and she say that in her home it was only “one-time-use-axes and knifes”. Her husband by a new axe, or knife, when they gets dull.

Sweden was before a knife producing country. We have hundreds, perhaps thousands of knife factory’s. Today we do not have so many. The factory’s today is bigger and they produce a lot of knifes and you can by I nice, very sharp knife for lower then 5 pounds. You can sharpen them if you like to – or by a new one if you prefer.

EdgePal

[Underhay]

Thanks EdgePal, that was a very interesting post :)

I think the difference between our countries is: people who can't sharpen knives in Scandinavia buy a new knife when their one is blunt, but in Britain I think some people don't even realise it's not sharp anymore!

[Trond]

Very good post edgepal :) Very informative, even for me :D

[Stew]

Nice to see (hear) you Trond! How's the can business going?

Any chance you'll be forging again soon?

[Trond]

thanks Stew :)
I think the first chance for any forging now, is at Colins hammerin.
I have a two and a half hour drive to my workshop now, and there just arent any time to go work there :(

[Hoodoo]

Great thread guys. One of the most intelligent and civilized discussions of this topic I've ever read on a forum.

I'd also like to point out that most (but not all) of the leukos I've seen tend to be on the thin side, which is quite different from a lot of the thick choppers you see. So there's big and then there's big.

Most of the time I prefer a short blade (8-9 cm) for outdoor utility but there are times when an 11-12 cm blade is just plain handy around camp. Slicing bread and veges, cutting steaks and roasts from venison, scooping peanut butter out of a jar. A thin blade with just an extra cm or two can be pretty handy. Granted, you lose a little control over the tip but sometimes it's a good trade.

[fastbreak]

The size of the knife, and the sharpening angle, depends on what your needs are. Your needs design the knife.
Scandinavian belt knifes are small and very sharp and have a sharpening angle about 20 degrees today.

Clipped......

EdgePal

Superb post. Thank you :biggthump

Have fun

Mike

[TLM]

I do agree with Edgepal on all major points, some shades of difference we have but not really much. One thing we see in Finland was/is the variation between various parts of the country, I really do not know wheather that depends on actually differences in usage or just that a certain smith happened to make that kind of puukkos in that area.

That was really in times gone by, nowadays one can get -and does- any style and actually usage affects the choice.

TLM

[Basemetal]

One of the descriptions I like to read of a prospective knife is that it is "quick". For a working knife it means I control the knife rather than vice versa. My woodlore is a bit on the heavy side -it has a say in what it does, whereas my favourite scandi style workers go where I tell them and do what they're told. The more I use knives, the more I understand the importance of the interface, sorry,... "handle" and the responsiveness and precision of a light blade.

At this rate in my dotage I'll be perfectly safe with all handle and no blade and happy as Larry (whoever he was...):rolleyes:

[TLM]

At this rate in my dotage I'll be perfectly safe with all handle and no blade and happy as Larry (whoever he was...)

You are more correct than you guessed :D , some of the "professional" whitlers I have seen use really short, thin and somewhat strange looking blades.

TLM

[Basemetal]

...I knew that...:rolleyes: :D ;)

[Trond]

And then again Wodloore aint a scandi is it? :rolleyes: :D

[EdgePal]

About the sharpness of the knife…
In many forums is a debate about how to get the knife razor sharp.
I wonder why?
In my mind, a knife shall be as sharp as you need the knife to be. Not sharper, not duller.

I have lived for more then 20 years in the Swedish alps, far away from civilization. The only tools I have was my two knifes.

When you live like that you can not have a razor sharp knife. The knife do not work and the knife get dull very fast. In that type of life you use a edge who is sharp for your needs. You must be able to cut wood, skin animals, cut meat, prepare fish, and so on – and you must trust your knife sometimes with your life.
Sometimes you need a razor sharp knife and then you make your knife razor sharp for the specific work, afterwards you change the edge back again to, for you, best angle and sharpness.

Most people I meet use their knifes outdoors. The use their knifes in a normal way, cutting branches, small work on wood and to eat with. Their knifes is mostly razor sharp and they are very proud of that and often show me how sharp their knifes are and cut of hair from their arms (some try do cut hair from my arms to…)
So, when you meet a man in the forest without hair on his arms – you also knew that he do not know so much about knifes and edges and how they work in the wilderness.

Then we have the hunters who have shiny razor sharp knifes and show them to me. They have polished their knifes and they are shiny and you can use them as a mirror. Have you ever tried to skin a mouse with a razor sharp knife? If you have, you have a skin with many, many holes in it. A razor sharp knife is not so nice to use for skinning. For belly opening, yes, but not skinning.
Shiny knifes?
Well, if I can use my knife instead of a mirror – then it do not work so well when I cut up the animal = when I slicing fresh meat (sorry, I do not knew the world in English).

If your knife have scratches in all directions on the side of the blade, the knife works better in meat. That because the blood and water from the meat goes into the scratches as oil in a engine and the knife is gliding better in the meat = you do not need to work so hard and the knife is doing the job, not you.
Then, if you use a convex edge for meat slicing, the knife work better then a straight edge and do the job with less power from your side.

· So, tell me why outdoor knifes shall be razor sharp, please?

As I think you knew I am the constructor of EdgePal Sharpening System. www.edgepal.com
I work with edges, and tools with edges, every day sins about 5 years back, on full time.
I construct sharpening tools, marketing them and sale them. In that profession I meet and talk with many people from all over the world. Many of them like to have razor sharp knifes and I do not really understand why. Sometimes it is necessary with razor sharp knifes – but normally not.

Steve Bottorff (Sharpening made easy) has tested EdgePal Sharpening System and you can read what he says about EdgePal here: http://users.ameritech.net/knives/edgepal.htm

EdgePal can of cause make knifes razor sharp. A sharpening tool must be able to do just that. But, in my mind, the knife shall be just as sharp as you need it to be. That is, for me, knowledge of edges and how edges work for my needs.
To make a knife razor sharp is no problem. To make a edge who works just for me, and my needs, is more difficult and need some experience and training. Is that the problem?

Thomas

[TLM]

While I totally agree with EP*s idea (as I think I understand it), a few notes: "sharpness" and "edge angle" and/or "edge profile" are sometimes sligthly different though very much interrelated things.

Razors are invariably thin profiled usually concave sometimes flat.

A large edge angled blade can be sharp but it does not cut well deeply.

A (slightly) convex profile is easiest to control when whitling and generally working with wood.

TLM

PS. and a hundred variations and some people just like it their way.

[Sajuma]

I would like to add that also the "polished" (read stropped) edge cuts sometimes in certain circum. less than roughtly sharpened edge because of micro teeth.

Juha

[Fairlane]

First, let me just thank everybody for the vast amount of excellent information in this thread!

When I was younger and didn't know much about knives, my uncle who is a very good knifemaker and i had a discussion on knives.
I toted my big American knives and the big same knives, and he told me something that an old same had said:

"With the big same knife you have both axe and knife, but actually you have neither"

I have kept that in mind ever since, as those are sound words
and i have found many a time that he was right.

:)

[seved]

Hello.
I am a knifemaker from sweden.I have just discoverd this site, very nice.I think the blades i short because,they are often made fore hunting and carving wood.Fore heavier chopping we tend use hatchets.I think its tradition.But i like 10-12cm blades its more allround i think.

seved

[Trond]

Hello Seved nice to have you aboard :)

Keep the posts comming, and sheare some pictures of your beautifull knives ;)

[seved]

Thank you trond.:D Yes i try to post some pictures and join in.

seved:D

[Wayne D]

It really makes the so called survival knives you see for sale appear even more silly. It seems to me that they often have 8 inch plus blades

But the thing to remember about 'Survival knives' is that they are meant to replace both axes and knife - they are a single carry emergency piece of kit, that needs to be able to chop sapling fashion shelters, gut & skin game, etc etc as well as be able to prepare your dinner with.

As I've said before on other threads, if I was dumped in a survival sutuation I would rather have an 8" knife than a 3" knife, every time!

I tend to change my knifes with what I am doing, so I suppose I am following the scandanavian idea of the right knife for the job! I have a 7cm bladed knife that lives in my walking jacket, a 15cm that was my EDC in the States and my old 18cm Bowie that now lives in my 'bugout' bag ( along with a couple of folders, both with 10cm blades)

[seved]

I think you got to have many knives both small and long blades.If you dont have that i think a 6-7 inch blade must be best.

seved

[Underhay]

If you dont have that i think a 6-7 inch blade must be best.

I'd have to agree with that :) A six inch blade does give a useable, practical knife which will suit most purposes.

However, that six inch blade would be a Jack of all trades.
If there is a message to this thread, it seems to me, that it is this:

The Scandinavian style knife has evolved into the perfect tool for the use it is designed for.

There are several different uses for the knives in different regions of Scandinavia, so the knives have evolved differently in those regions.

The short knives appear to be used in addition to an axe.

I hope I have summerised this correctly :)

[Trond]

I'd have to agree with that :) A six inch blade does give a useable, practical knife which will suit most purposes.

However, that six inch blade would be a Jack of all trades.
If there is a message to this thread, it seems to me, that it is this:

The Scandinavian style knife has evolved into the perfect tool for the use it is designed for.

There are several different uses for the knives in different regions of Scandinavia, so the knives have evolved differently in those regions.

The short knives appear to be used in addition to an axe.

I hope I have summerised this correctly :)
Almoust :D
The Same people use one short for everyday tasks, and one bigger for chopping wood and other more heavy tasks.
As for the norwegians, the knife was worn everyday, both in the cities and in the countrysides, with no particular purpose, but a handy tool for all sorts of things in the everyday life ;)
I would say that the term scandiknife is slightly missleading, cause ther is not one particular type that are the same in all parts of scandinavia.
Even within norway there are very many different types of knives, depends of what part of norway you look at.

[MushiSushi]

I think that the answer to this question has to lie in the fact that Norwegians never watched Rambo :D

[mojofilter]

I think that the answer to this question has to lie in the fact that Norwegians never watched Rambo :D

Either that, or they did watch it, but somehow and inexplicably, never had the desire to be him! :P

[Underhay]

Either that, or they did watch it, but somehow and inexplicably, never had the desire to be him!

Now that is a sign of good taste :)

[EdgePal]

By the way, who is Rambo? (Sorry Sylvester)…

Thomas

[Bogflogger]

This is a really interesting thread! It is good to see comments about making knives only as sharp as needed for the job being done. I have one question though...How do people tell what area someone is from by looking at their knife? blade shape/length? handle decoration? I would really like to know more about this.

[Trond]

How do people tell what area someone is from by looking at their knife? blade shape/length? handle decoration? I would really like to know more about this.

You couldnt ;)
You could know where the knife is from, but in todays comunication society, people buy the knives that they like, so there are regional differences of the knives, but they are sold all over the world :)

[Dave Budd]

I'm sure it's been said somewhere here already and I've missed it but the answer to the question 'why do scandi's have such short blades?' is, as given by Steen at last year's hammerin:

'because I don't need the extension!'

nuff said


btw, why do you think I tend to make small practical knives and not the ruddy great showy bowie?

[Underhay]

When I started this thread, it was because I noticed all the Scandis (that I had seen up to then!) had a long handle compared to blade length.

I was interested that the blades seemed very short ie, 3 inches or so, and not the 4 to 5 inches that I would tend to consider normal for a typical sheath knife. I agree with you the over sized 8 inch Bowie knife doesn't tend to be too practical for daily use!

[owen bush]

nice thread underhay .
Our scandanavian brethren do seem to be quite sensical both about the use and making of knives .