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Stuart Ackerman
13-04-05, 12:51 AM
Hi all,
I was sent this a while back, and perhap could be a sticky? Titanium is HARD to work with, as this might help...

Titanium and its alloys have been in use in the commercial-industrial sector for over four decades. However, very little information has been available to address the needs of the knifemaker. For example, in a recently completed survey, we asked the general public and knifemakers alike, "how many grades of titanium do you think there are?" The most frequent answers were "two" and "three". There are actually over 50 titanium grades used worldwide, with each being designed for applications as wide ranging as rotating components for jet engines to submarine hulls to medical implants and bicycle frames. Since many knifemaking artisans are using titanium as bolsters, liners, handles and even blades, I felt it might be of benefit to share what we have learned working with titanium over the past several years. Five important properties need to be considered when working with titanium;

Titanium heats up faster than steel.
Titanium, being a poor conductor, will tend to retain the heat being generated in the specific area being worked. Therefore, it is easy to quickly overheat that specific area which causes work-hardening.
Alloyed Titanium is very abrasion resistant.
Titanium has a fairly low modulus of elasticity. This gives titanium its "springiness" property. This, in turn, causes titanium to "chatter", which causes tooling to break if not fixtured correctly.
Titanium has a tendency to gall.

These material properties require slowing down of all of your machinery (both speeds and feeds), keeping the titanium cool, keeping the titanium fixtured correctly, and keeping the cutting tool surfaces free of chips.


II. PROCESSES

I felt the best way to approach this topic would be to discuss each of the knifemaking processes.

A) PROFILING

Begins with taking a piece of metal, and ending up with something that resembles the outline of a knife blade. Listed below are most of the processes that we have investigated.

1. Blanking/Stamping - a metal "mold" is made of a high strength steel which resembles the final profile of a knifeblade. This "mold" is then attached to a large hydraulic press which then closes down on the metal plate. The mold then shears out the knifeblade from the plate.
Advantages -can be successfully used for thinner sections of titanium (generally, a maximum of, 0.0625" for highly alloyed titanium, 0.080" for alloyed titanium and 0.125" for commercially pure). Low to medium strength titanium (alloys) work best. For a high volume shop, this might be a good way to make titanium liners.

Disadvantages - mold wear and potential breakage increase exponentially as the thickness of the titanium plate increases linearly. Also, even on thin titanium sections, shearing on corners can be excessive such that grinding, buffing, and polishing steps are required.


2. Stock Removal (milling and belt grinding) - If you have access to a milling machine, you can use carbide cutters. Again, you will need to slow down the speeds and feeds, and use ultra sharp tools. Although more people have access to belt grinders, this is not a very attractive approach. For heavy stock removal with belt grinding, we recommend using a 50 or 60 grit belt with a HARD and SERRATED contact wheel. Another tip is to SLOW your belts surface feet per minute (SFPM).
For example, using the standard 8" contact wheel, the standard 960 Burr-King knifemaker grinder runs 4,398 SFPM. By changing to the 5" wheel you can drop the speed down to 2,747.5 SFPM. This is still too fast to efficiently grind titanium. Titanium prefers to be ground between 1,200 (Beta titanium) and 1,800 (6Al-4V titanium) SFPM. In general, the more highly alloyed the titanium is, the slower you need to work it. Table 1 shows the actual formula used to calculate SFPM for a two pulley knifemaker grinder. Table 2 shows the results of these pulley and wheel changes. Instead of a constant speed machine, you might want to investigate a variable speed unit.


TABLE 1
SFPM = RMP of the Motor
Multiplied by ( * ) Diameter (inches)
of the Driving (Motor) Pulley
Divided by ( / ) Diameter (inches)
of the Driven (Contact Wheel) Pulley
Multiplied by ( * ) Diameter (inches)
of the Contact Wheel
Multiplied by ( * ) pi (3.14159)
Divided by ( / ) 12

For Example: BurrKing 960
SFPM =
(1750 * 3 / 2.5 * 8 * 3.14159 / 12) = 4,398


TABLE 2
Contact Wheel Driving
Pulley Driven
Pulley SFPM SPEED
8"
5"
8"

5"
8"
5"
8"
5"
8"
5"
8"
5"
8"
5"
8"
5" 2.5"
2.5"
3"

3"
2.5"
2.5"
2"
2"
2"
2"
1.5"
1.5"
1.5"
1.5"
1.5"
1.5" 3"
3"
2.5"

2.5"
2.5"
2.5"
3"
3"
2.5"
2.5"
3"
3"
2.5"
2.5"
2"
2" 3053
1908
4396

2748
3663
2289
2442
1526
2931
1832
1832
1145
2198
1374
2747
1717 Too Fast Good BurrKing (Baseline) Too Fast
Too Fast
Too Fast
Too Fast Better
Too Fast Good
Good
Best
Too Fast Better
Too Fast Good
**Note: Pulleys come in many more sizes than just the 1.5", 2", 2.5", and 3" described here

Keep the titanium cool with a water mist unit or frequent dunkings in water. Once the titanium heats up, you can easily create a case hardened area on the spot being worked. This case hardened area has the appearance of blue colored stripes and is basically a hard ceramic. Belt grinding can be used with lower strength titaniums in thinner gauges. Also, the type of belt makes a big difference along with the abrasive pattern. ALuminum OXide (ALOX) belts/random pattern are almost useless. For example, the first time I attempted stock removal on beta titanium, I used a new 50 grit ALOX belt. Sparks flew, but nothing happened. I stopped my Burr-King and looked at the piece of 0.25" titanium. Just a few small scratches on the titanium. Then I looked at the belt. To my surprise, there was no grit left on it - and that was after only 5 seconds of grinding. I thought to myself, "I'm going to have to try something different, this just ain't going to work."
At a minimum, the next step up in performance would be silicon carbide belts. The key to belts (and abrasive cutting wheels) is this, you want the abrasive grains to fracture to expose a fresh, sharp cutting edge every time it comes into contact with the titanium. Silicon carbide works well initially, but wears down quickly. As soon as the carbide dulls slightly, you are not "cutting" anymore, all you are doing is heating up the titanium.

Since we have all of our blades water jet cut, most of our belts are used for buffing out the tooling marks from the milling operation. We do not use belts courser than 100 grit, and usually start with a 120 grit ceramic.

If I can get away with it, I like to start out with a 150 grit ceramic, then jump right to the 180 grit 3M Apex.

I have very recently tried the "Compact Grain" belts from VSM abrasives (#CK742J). These are also silicon carbide, but nothing like you have seen before. I have had exceptionally good belt life from these belts. They come in 80, 120, 180, and 320, and work exceedingly well on titanium.

The belts we now use and keep in stock are the following:

100 grit, usually zirconia or ceramic. For heavy work there does not seem to be any measurable difference in belt life between the two. The drawbacks are that it takes extra work to grind out the deeper scratches from this grit.

120 grit, usually zirconia or ceramic. This is where we usually start our "buffing" process. This step takes most of the tooling marks out. I have recently shifted to exclusively using VSM compact grain belts in this grit size.

150 grit, usually ceramic. Takes out the 120 grip scratches.

180 grit, use 3M Apex or VSM compact grain. These "buff" great. For even better buffing, flip the 3M Apex around so the belt runs in the reverse direction - there will still be a lot of belt life remaining - acts like a fresh 240 grit.

320 grit, if you want even finer buffing, use the 3M Apex or VSM. Both belts work very well.


3. Sawing - this includes abrasive cutting wheels, hacksaws, and bandsaws. Power sawing works reasonably well for commercially pure titanium, and less and less well for higher and higher strength titanium alloys. Chips, which are a result from the sawing action, can destroy a saw blade almost immediately, therefore, abrasive wheel cutting is usually the preferred approach. Here are some recommended parameters when sawing (assuming maximum titanium thickness of 1/4").

Bandsaw:
8 to 10 teeth per inch
Use 60 to 70 (Feet Per Minute) FPM speed on the more highly alloyed titaniums (including 6Al-4V).
Use 150 to 200 FPM on commercially pure grades.
Slow feed.
Liberal Lubrication. Alternatively, you can friction saw cut titanium with a dull blade.
Here you are essentially burning thru the material.

Power Hacksaw:

8 to 10 teeth per inch
Use 25 to 30 (Strokes Per Minute) SPM speed on the more highly alloyed titaniums (including 6Al-4V).
Use 120 to 180 SPM on commercially pure grades.
Slow feed
Liberal Lubrication.

Hacksaw (by hand):

6 teeth per inch.
Liberal Lubrication.
Extremely slow, almost to the point of being impractical, especially with the alloy grades.
Abrasive wheels work very well given the proper characteristics:
Wheel Composition - the abrasive grains should fracture for continuous exposure of fresh and sharp cutting edges. A silicon carbide wheel works very well. Use 60 to 120 grit wheels.
Hardness - too soft equals rapid wheel wear, too hard equals loading up. A wheel hardness of "L" is recommended.
Wheel Speeds and Feeds - 7000 to 12,000 SFPM works well given that adequate flood cooling is used.
Wheel Width - recommended widths are 0.090" to 0.125"


4. Laser Cutting - has its advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages:
Usually lower cost than water jet (per inch).
Usually faster than water jet (per inch).
Good for thin stock (ex. liners) usually up to a maximum of 0.100"

Disadvantages:

Not recommended for thicker stock over 0.100". Need to use a shop that has done titanium before (usually higher shop rates), because mixtures and pressures are different than when cutting steel.
Cannot cut parts as close together as water jet, therefore, less yield per plate.
Expect "blown out" parts if pressures and mixes fluctuate when cutting.
Expect to grind off burr from the back side of the knife blank. We have noticed an exponential increase in burr with a linear increase in titanium thickness.
Expect to surface grind away the "weld splatter" generated from the laser cutting.
Will leave 0.050" to 0.125" Heat Affected Zone (HAZ). Will need to grind or peripheral mill away this HAZ.


5. Water Jet Cutting - the best overall cutting technique. Water jet cutters have come a long way in a very short period of time and are actually more precise than lasers (no HAZ, splatter, and burr), and can yield more parts per plate due to this lack of heat. The key to this technique is to slow down the cutter to obtain as square an edge as possible. In other words, the faster the cutter goes, the more deflection that can be seen in the part, while the slower the cut, the less deflection. A slow cutter speed translates into as close to a 90 degree cut edge as possible. This is the technique we have had the most success with for cutting out our blades from plate.

6. Wire EDM - the most expensive, but also, the most accurate. Even though the titanium is submersed in a coolant tank, the spark of the wire is what actually does the cutting, therefore, a small HAZ is still created. While not nearly as bad as with laser cutting, you still must remove this HAZ before continuing with the processing. On the positive side, the metal can be cut to near finished size so that very little, if any, peripheral milling needs to be done.

(B) EDGING (Tapers or Hollow Grinds)
1. CNC Machining/Milling - Stiff and Ridgid Vertical flatbed mills with flood coolant is required. For anyone requiring any sort of production or semi production work, CNC machining or CNC Grinding is the only solution for heavy stock removal on titanium alloys.
2. Knife Grinding Machines - Most importantly, stiff and rigid grinders are required. Here, two models come to mind:
Berger, and
American Siepmann

3. Belt Grinding - Again, most important to slow the SFPM. Table 3 will show our experience with different types of belts and belt wear in a "buffing" type operation. Grinding Performance is defined as how much of the MPK blade a belt was able to grind on until the belt went "dead". This operation removes tool marks caused by the CNC mill - 180 grit belts are used.

TABLE 3
BELT

Aluminum Oxide Silicon Carbide Zirconia
Ceramic
APEX (Ceramic) VSM CK742J GRINDING
PERFORMANCE
1 Side of 1 Knife
2 Sides of 6 Knives
2 Sides of 10 Knives
2 Sides of 12 Knives
2 Sides of 15 Knives
2 Sides of 25 Knives INCREASE OVER BASELINE
Baseline
12 Times
20 Times
24 Times
30 Times
50 Times

(C) DRILLING - There are six main rules when drilling:
1. Slow
2. Keep part cool
3. Keep part lubricated
4. Keep drill bit sharp
5. Keep drill bit clean/free of chips
6. Rigid machines and firm holding fixtures are mandatory

Cobalt and Carbide drills work best, although carbide requires a slower feed rate.
Whenever possible, use stub length bits to minimize chatter.
Keep the titanium cool and use frequent lubrication or flood coolant.
A coolant free of trichloroethane, sulpher and chlorine is recommended where follow-up heat treating will be used.
COOL TOOL II by Monroe is a good choice. Maximum RPM we use is 80.
You especially want slow speeds when using carbide drills, reams and counterbores.
Most drill presses cannot go that slow, although there are some which can be slowed with the use a third reduction pulley. This might be an option for you to explore for your own drill press.
We use a Flat bed CNC mill for most of our automated operations and a Bridgeport mill for "manual" drilling, reaming, and countersinking. Both of these mills can achieve speeds down to 80 RPM.

Keep drill bits free of chips.
If you see a chip forming on the drill bit, stop immediately and remove the chip(s).
A chip welded to the bit is the quickest way to fracture the cutting edge of the tool.

Point angle is also an important factor, and is dependent on the hole diameter.
Use a blunt point (140 degrees) for smaller diameter holes (less than 1/4")
Use a sharp point (90 degrees) for larger diameter holes (1/4" to 1/2").

(D) REAMING
Same issues as above. Water/Laser jet holes should be 0.010" to 0.020" undersize. Again, cobalt and carbide reamers work the best. For chip clearing considerations, textbooks recommend using reamers with a minimum number of flutes. We have found that for the higher alloyed titaniums, the maximum number of flutes work best.


(E) COUNTERSINK

Same issues as above, except we have found that if the countersink bit is cleaned frequently of chips, a 90 degree by 6 flute bit works best.


(F) TAPPING

One of the most difficult machining operations due to the difficulty of getting cutting lubricants to the surface being cut. Titanium tends to gall and smear on the tap which causes the tap to bind in the hole. Back the tap off frequently and clear the chips for best results. Also recommended are a 65% thread.


(G) SAFETY ISSUES

General Safety

When belt grinding, we have found it best to let the sparks burn out all of the way. This causes the titanium dust to burn out (oxidize), thereby greatly reducing the risk of fire. Actually, what happens is that the heat of the titanium spark is very high (over 3,000 degrees F) and these hot sparks are known to ignite other metals (dust) which do not readily oxidize when ground. This has caused much confusion in the industry. In other words, the titanium spark is the igniter for the other dust. Coupled with the fact that almost every metal in dust form will burn, it is therefore of utmost importance to remove all grinding residue from the entire area (including exhaust systems) before working with titanium. Do not let the titanium dust mix with the other metals dust.

UV Damage

Use UV rated safety glasses or face shield. If you are concerned, they now make welders glasses and welders flip-down lenses.

Sound

At a minimum, use the new style foam ear plugs.

Smoke

Generated from the dry grinding operation, consists of both titanium dioxide and belt dust. Titanium Dioxide is inert to the body, but it is characterized as a dust irritant. I have checked with a couple of the belt manufacturers and they have said the same thing about the belts - an inert dust irritant. Just to be sure, I use a half face dual cartridge respirator system, with a dust/vapor/fume/mist HEPA cartridge filter.

General

Knifemaking is an inherently dangerous endeavor. Take it slow and easy, and by all means, stay safe.

Stuart Ackerman
18-04-05, 01:44 AM
Looks like I am the only one who uses Ti?

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 02:23 AM
I have a box full of titanium nuts'n'bolts. M5-M12. Although only 1 M12 x 60. :D

Stuart Ackerman
18-04-05, 03:05 AM
what do you do with 'em?

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 04:19 AM
I look at them. :D :D

Stuart Ackerman
18-04-05, 04:33 AM
Burn them blue and gold with a gas torch etc, and then they will be more pleasent to look at...

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 04:39 AM
oooh, pretty bolts.

I got them from a friend who worked as part of a team that built ocean racing yachts. He came round with a carrier bag full of titanium fasteners. He allowed me to have a few handfulls. I have sorted them out for size and type and placed them in one of those divided storage boxes. Now I am totally at a loss what to use them for.

Stuart Ackerman
18-04-05, 04:43 AM
Keep a couple, send the rest to me..

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 04:45 AM
Hmmmmmm..............

mojofilter
18-04-05, 04:55 AM
Keep a couple, send the rest to me..

What'll you do with them?

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 04:57 AM
Make them pretty colours and look at them as well. :D

Stuart Ackerman
18-04-05, 05:12 AM
I am going to build a watercraft of some sort after August. They may be useful.
I have just refurbished a fibreglass kayak for my son, and the rudder pivot is S/S, and still corrodes. I can source Ti bits here, and I have enough 727 airplane rotors etc to machine, but NO ONE wants too...Wonder why...

PS_Bond
18-04-05, 07:16 AM
Make them pretty colours and look at them as well. :D

Sounds like they need forging... :)

shing
18-04-05, 07:52 AM
Ti nuts and bolts are worth a bit, try ebay.http://www.ondrives.com/products.asp?recnumber=369

ANDYLASER
18-04-05, 08:15 AM
Blimey, at those prices my box of them is worth a few hundred.

Stuart Ackerman
21-04-05, 12:17 AM
Andylaser,
if you own a Spydie UK Penknife, try and see if any of those Ti screws could replace the so called problem ones, the ones where a Torx will not fit correctly?
Report back here, and if they do fit, a lot of folks will be happy, I guess...

Mike Lamprey
07-01-06, 07:51 PM
Until recently I used 6Al4V exclusively for all my folder frames. I agree with all the above remarks regarding working. With regard to dust, I grind right over a dust extractor which passes through a water butt. The water has detergent and sodium bicarbonate added to kill the surface tension. The dust extractor trunking is stainless steel chimney liner and the air vents to external atmosphere. The butt needs to be desludged very now and again and fine dust which misses the extractor head removed after every grinding session with a vacuum cleaner. Why all this trouble? I had a fire in the workshop which bit into the concrete floor!! Titanium would make a great thermic lance!! Anyway no trouble snce then.
I never cut internal threads in titanium. I drill and interference fit a 316 sleeve and thread that instead. That way if the thread is damaged you just replace the sleeve.
Mike Lamprey

Bogflogger
07-01-06, 08:56 PM
Re: box of Ti Bolts. If you cannot find a better use for them, grind them into centrepunches and fit them into steel bodys. (then send me 2)

mloc
07-01-06, 09:17 PM
Looks like I am the only one who uses Ti?


i have lots of Ti (24 feet of 8mm round rod :D ) and i have no means of working it at the moment but that will change soon. I just dont know what to do with it :huh: :huh:

mloc
07-01-06, 09:29 PM
i also have the piece mentioned in this http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4741&highlight=titanium thread sitting around somewhere.

shing
07-01-06, 10:18 PM
Mloc, I'll be interested in buying so Titanium rod if you are selling, do you know what grade it is?

As an aside, I was tapping some 2mm thick 6AL4V Ti liners when the 2mm tap broke and I couldn't get it out. I left it in some dilute nitric acid and the tap dissolved after 24 hours and the Ti was unaffected.

I found Ti is slightly more difficult to tap than stainless but it works easy enough except angle grinding as it produces loads of really bright white sparks that I have to try not to look at due to the UV.

MotorbikeMan
12-04-06, 02:00 PM
I know this is digging up an old thread, but if I take it slow, would a diamond burr on a dremel have any affect on ti?

MotorbikeMan
12-04-06, 02:12 PM
And another question, using this method (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/3f178ca927d05010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html) to anodise the ti, if I masked off part and anodised with say three cells and then stripped off the mask and anodised with one cell, would the previous anodising be affected? Also, rather than using batteries which lose power, would one of those switchable voltage mains adapters be ok to use with obvious reasonable care?

APG1961
12-04-06, 05:35 PM
i have lots of Ti (24 feet of 8mm round rod :D ) and i have no means of working it at the moment but that will change soon. I just dont know what to do with it :huh: :huh:

Hi mloc,

Sorry I can't suggest a use for your Ti, but i could use some as spacers in my Ti folders.

Would you be interested in selling me about a metre of the rod?

If so please pm me with the details.

Andy..

mloc
12-04-06, 06:20 PM
Hi mloc,

Sorry I can't suggest a use for your Ti, but i could use some as spacers in my Ti folders.

Would you be interested in selling me about a metre of the rod?

If so please pm me with the details.

Andy..


I'll have a look if i have any in the house but i think most of it went across the channel to my new place or to Mr Yarrow at leeds i'll get back to you asap

Stuart Ackerman
12-04-06, 08:47 PM
I know this is digging up an old thread, but if I take it slow, would a diamond burr on a dremel have any affect on ti?

Jon, Ti heats up VERY quickly, so any stock removal should be one that takes a lot of material away, without heating...If the diamond is aggresive, try it, and see...If the Ti goes rainbow coloured, then the area has heated up beyong 500° C, and oxidation has taken place, and HTed the rainbw area, but just the surface...
The diamond will stilll cut, but with more difficulty.
Sandblasting the Ti when it "Rainbows" will remove the problem, but the design might change, if you blast too much.

Mission charge a lot of money for their knives, and I know why!!!

MotorbikeMan
12-04-06, 09:01 PM
Jon, Ti heats up VERY quickly, so any stock removal should be one that takes a lot of material away, without heating...If the diamond is aggresive, try it, and see...If the Ti goes rainbow coloured, then the area has heated up beyong 500° C, and oxidation has taken place, and HTed the rainbw area, but just the surface...
The diamond will stilll cut, but with more difficulty.
Sandblasting the Ti when it "Rainbows" will remove the problem, but the design might change, if you blast too much.

Mission charge a lot of money for their knives, and I know why!!!
What if I had the ti in a shallow bath of water or even something like wd40 to cool it? Any thoughts on the mains converter rather than batteries to anodise it as well? What I'm after doing with it first is to make a pendant about an inch in diameter and then anodising it.

Stuart Ackerman
13-04-06, 10:52 AM
Keeping it cool is good, and working in a vacuum is better, but how long can you hold your breath?:D
Drilling it under a coolant will prevent work hardening, and if you get it right, you can be well pleased with yourself!!:)
Tim McCreights book on metals and anodising etc will help you immensely...do not know the title, but any good library will have it...

MotorbikeMan
13-04-06, 11:31 AM
Keeping it cool is good, and working in a vacuum is better, but how long can you hold your breath?:D
Drilling it under a coolant will prevent work hardening, and if you get it right, you can be well pleased with yourself!!:)
Tim McCreights book on metals and anodising etc will help you immensely...do not know the title, but any good library will have it...
What about chemical etching. I know that ti is very stable, that's the reason I'm using it. I'm assuming that this technique (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=10319&highlight=etching) won't work on it. Is there anything I can do relatively safely at home that will?

PS_Bond
13-04-06, 11:42 AM
Tim McCreights book on metals and anodising etc will help you immensely...do not know the title, but any good library will have it...

Complete Metalsmith is the only one that springs to mind - I don't know of one by him specifically on anodising?

Stuart Ackerman
13-04-06, 07:30 PM
Sorry..the Complete Metalsmith has a few pages on anodising

john foxwell
14-04-06, 10:54 PM
And another question, using this method (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/how20/3f178ca927d05010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html) to anodise the ti, if I masked off part and anodised with say three cells and then stripped off the mask and anodised with one cell, would the previous anodising be affected? Also, rather than using batteries which lose power, would one of those switchable voltage mains adapters be ok to use with obvious reasonable care?

MBM,

Here's a link to the process and how to make the anodizer itself.

http://mrtitanium.com/anodizing.html

MotorbikeMan
19-04-06, 12:47 PM
MBM,

Here's a link to the process and how to make the anodizer itself.

http://mrtitanium.com/anodizing.html
That's a great link John, although it has left me a tad confused. The first technique I saw starts of with one 9v battery, but the Mr. Titanium link says you have to start with around 18v :S could I use one of these (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=13044&criteria=power%20supply&doy=19m4) to do the anodising? If the batteries will work, I can't see why this wouldn't work unless I'm missing something obvious. I can see an advantage with having a regular power supply for consistant results rather than relying on batterys that drain after a while. Eventually, I will make one similar to the Mr. Titanium one, but I want something that works NOW :D

Stuart Ackerman
19-04-06, 08:39 PM
This might help, Jon?
http://www.artmetal.com/project/TOC/finishes/anodize.html

MotorbikeMan
19-04-06, 11:13 PM
This might help, Jon?
http://www.artmetal.com/project/TOC/finishes/anodize.html
Again, interesting stuff, but still talking about higher voltages as do most of the other links I've looked at. I guess I'll just have to play :D

MotorbikeMan
19-04-06, 11:34 PM
Having just said that, I may have found something on a rec.crafts group in a discussion about the relative merits of heat colouring and anodic colouring of ti that may clear things up a tad.


While I can't say I've done a "head to head" comparison of the two methods
of oxide generation, I'd bet your statement applies to colores applied with the
lower voltage ranges. One of the neat things about anodic colors is that the
sequence of colors starts at low voltages, and repeates the entire sequence
several times as you increase the voltage. The higher voltage sequences are
thicker layers, and by the time you're using voltages in the 150 V range or so,
my opinion is that you should be getting the same degree of durability.
From that, it would appear that lower voltages will get the colours, higher voltages will get the same colours, just more durable.

soup_monger
01-05-06, 04:49 PM
Well, I've been working on some Titanium sheet (2mm thick) that I was very generously given by a BB member.
I can rough out shapes by drilling a line of holes using the drill press and then using a cut off wheel on the dremel to cut through the remaining connections.
Trouble is now I have a rough shape with spikey edges that just laughs at the bench grinder and the file.
This is my first time working with Ti and I am already very wary of it as it started spitting molten blobs at me from the grinder as soon as I started on it.
I'll try again with full battle gear on, but, it really is a PITA to work. :(

Hopefully my learning curve will steepen soon. :)

Cheers

shing
01-05-06, 05:25 PM
The only problems I have with working with 6al4v Ti is cutting threads, very difficult to lubricate the hole and easy to break small taps and angle grinding because of the very bright sparks emitting UV light that can damage eyes. Apart from that, its similar to stainless to drill, saw, file and grind on the belt grinder.

Mr_Yarrow
01-05-06, 06:36 PM
Soup,

Do let us know how you get on. I have my sheet of donated 2mm Ti waiting for me to shape into a bolster and other bits. Am keen to hear what you come up with/find.

Rgds

soup_monger
01-05-06, 07:32 PM
No problem Mr Yarrow. :)
I'm a trial and error type of learner so I'll tell you about my mistakes as well, so you can hopefully avoid them. :D

All the best mate.

APG1961
02-05-06, 08:12 AM
Well, I've been working on some Titanium sheet (2mm thick) that I was very generously given by a BB member.
I can rough out shapes by drilling a line of holes using the drill press and then using a cut off wheel on the dremel to cut through the remaining connections.
Trouble is now I have a rough shape with spikey edges that just laughs at the bench grinder and the file.
This is my first time working with Ti and I am already very wary of it as it started spitting molten blobs at me from the grinder as soon as I started on it.
I'll try again with full battle gear on, but, it really is a PITA to work. :(

Hopefully my learning curve will steepen soon. :)

Cheers

I've just been cutting out a new knife this weekend and have to agree it's tough stuff to work.

I don't use the method of drilling hole, angle grinders or cut of wheels. The secret of cutting Ti is the quality of your tools. I cut out thin Ti liners with a metal cutting bandsaw with a Bi-metal blade. Thick bolsters of 3mm I cut out with a hacksaw fitted with Lennox Bi-metal blades. They are expensive but they work. Cutting one set of bolsters eat's up one hacksaw blade:( I cut as close to the marked line and then finish on the belt grinder. I hardly ever use a file on Ti

I don't usually have a problem with threading Ti and sometimes I use the very small 0-80 torx screws. I use a drill slightly larger than you would use if tapping steel and then I lube the tap with light oil. I have to admit to breaking a 1.4mm drill in a bolster this weekend but all I did was leave the bolster in a jar of ferric chloride over night and the drill bit had desolved over night.

I hope this is of some help..

Andy.

pennillion
02-05-06, 10:36 AM
I dont know if this is any help gentlemen but i just cut through some 1.3mm Titanium with a large pair of Gilbows, it is tough but can be done, so i think anyone with 1mm or less will go through with good tinsnips like a knife through butter. Attempted 2mm but only got about 20mm and my hand started hurting :D

Cones
01-09-06, 01:10 PM
I’ve just done a search and this looked a good place to ask a question on Titanium.

How tough is the anodized finish?

The reason I ask is I was thinking about the problem we have with knockover HFT target that we use in air rifle target shooting.

They are usually sprayed with paint to make them nice and clear to see. But after a few shot the paint gets shot off the surface of the metal.

I was thinking that perhaps the heat anodised surface of the titanium would hold up better?

Any thoughts?

I will try and obtain a small piece of Titanium and do some experimenting I think.

Thanks

Mark

APG1961
02-09-06, 12:24 PM
Hi Mark

I've just been doing some heat anodized Ti and have had to remove the colour a few times to get an even colour in the knife. The anodized layer is VERY thin and can be removed even with a buffing wheel. I don't know what colour your looking to get for your HFT target.

If you want a piece let me know and I'll send you some..

Andy

Cones
02-09-06, 12:49 PM
Andy,

Many thanks for the offer but Mik is already sending me some.

I know the layer is sub micron thick. But still wanted to see how it stood up to impact damage from the pellets. Paint is useless and chips off after one hit.

Thanks

Mark

grangerknives
02-09-06, 01:51 PM
Looks like I am the only one who uses Ti?

No, I use it as well. Though 6AL4V RC's about 47, I do make some knife blades out of it. BTW: Do you know any practical way to get it harder?

I also use it when making folders. It looks really cool when you file-work it and then anodise it electro-chemically. I did that on the liners of an Emerson CQC7 by Benchmade. Even Ernie liked it.

I saw a cool advert for coloured Ti knives & forks. Quite pricey though...

Paul

grangerknives
02-09-06, 01:55 PM
Here's your Ti forks & spoons:
For the man who has everything (and still has money he keeps tripping over).

http://www.berkeleypoint.com/products/titanium/tiware.html

pennillion
02-09-06, 04:14 PM
Paul !

do you know if the berkeley people send to the uk and how is their service ?

Stuart Ackerman
02-09-06, 08:39 PM
No, I use it as well. Though 6AL4V RC's about 47, I do make some knife blades out of it. BTW: Do you know any practical way to get it harder?

Paul

Paul, if you are not bothered by looks, and you heat the edge of the blade with high heat, it will oxidise and creat a hard oxide surface. Rainbow coloured...
An acetylene torch with a fine tip will work.
How hard does it get?
Don't know, but it cuts well for longer than "normal".

greg howard
16-06-11, 07:22 AM
I'm hoping someone can help, I have a flow switch which uses a titanium shaft made from titanium grade B. It passes from a dry, sealed atmosphere, to one containing water which has a salinity of 3500 ppm. the point where it goes through the seal into wet environment is the focus of my concern.

It's only 1/16th inch round and the surface is not very smooth/polished.

What is the best way to polish the surface of the shaft where it passes through a buna rubber seal? I need to limit wear to the rubber seal as it rotates during the life of the part? I have very little experience working with titanium but i feel it offers the best corrosion resistance while also being maleable enough to use "brake forming" for the upper portion of the shaft to the desired shape.

I want to make sure the buna rubber seal in conjunction with proper lubricant will last as long as possible before failure. The shaft only rotates about 18 degrees and back to origin, and rotates slowly enough that heat friction will not be an issue but the rough surface of the curent stock will cause mechanical abrasion over time if not addressed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

greg

someone else
03-03-12, 01:29 AM
Hi guys I have not exactly worked with titanium commercially but I'm a machinist (mostly cnc of metals but also grinding metals and cncing corian and all types of wood). My primary interests are martensitic stainless and martensitic tool steels and their heat treatment. I have made quite some parts out of Ti too, but only with manual machines and hand tools. I have experiance in working these following materials both with cooling/cutting fluid and with manual machines and hand tools such as files:

Ti 6al4v
Ti 3al2,5v

different kinds of brass and copper and bearing/lubricating bronze

stainless austenitic steels such as 18/8

duplex and super duplex stainless

all kinds of constuction steels ranging from soft/weak to very hard/strong such as hardox 500

Aluminium, pretty much all grades in all conditions, crap material in general.

Cobalt based superalloys such as talonite



A regular day at work I machined about 50-200kg of chips off the workpiece.


And I my opinion working Ti with non cooled tooling is really time consuming, grinding it not so much. The only thing more problematic working with hand tools and manual machines are superalloys and hardened hss. And its pretty much a tie.

When I drill 6al4v i usually use very low rpm like 100-200rpm, you see Ti is not very strong (about 1000mpa) but its very elastic and all the heat stays very close, as already said in the first post of this very thread. To overcome this I usually use low rpm and high feed, that is low rpm and you have to figure this out yourself and as high feed as you can possibly apply because when the elastic modulus if overcome its only 1/4 as strong as regular hss tools. But if you feed too low you are pretty much bouncing the tool on the surface and both the tool and Ti overheats and you break the temper of the tool.

There is a formula we machinst use for setting rpm of tools and its called Vc and that is peripheral cutting speed in meters/minute

the formula is (vc for the material x 1000)
divided by (pi x diameter of the tool/drill)

(vc x 1000)
---------------- = rpm of tool
(pi x d)

And for 6al4v vc is about 5-20 vc depending on hss uncooled or tungsten carbide internally cooled and used as cutting fluid. Feed is still high!

Usually you want to keep it as cool as possible otherwise you get an orange peel surface but this is sometimes wanted.
I have successfully drilled thick stock ti with a cordless drill and new crap uncoated hss drills, just keep the rpm low and feed high.

The easiest and fastest way of cutting thin ti is with a bimetal coarse hacksaw, and the fastest way with thick ti is with a thin bladed angle grinder (watch out for vanadium pentoxide, it will kill you).

I have found ti grinds easily on all mediums, alox no problem at all, you just have to push harder and don't hesitate, its a very tough and elastic material that does not transmit heat far away so you really have to show its whos the boss. Also you can intentionally overheat it to glowing when cutting it, then it cuts like butter, but you need a few mm of material to grind then because that overheated material it ruined, actually all other colors than its original one and light straw means overheated and full of oxygen (such as blue, pink, green, purple, other gray (the finishing point of heat coloration)) and that material you can throw away because its ruined beyond all recovery. However you can probably overheat all parts of a knife except the interface of a linerlock and the blade, the very contact point, that specific part you don't want to overheat. But the rest, don't worry. Its not going into space right.

Rab
05-03-12, 01:18 PM
Any advice on annealing titanium ?

thanks,
Rab

ALIass
24-03-12, 08:49 PM
Titanium is easy to work as long ad you use grade 1(CP) to 5(6al4V). It Can be cut on a bandsaw, fileworked and grinded as long as you go low speed and low pressure. It is not a magical metal and if your used to working steel, after heat treat, it is no Challenge...

SlowSteve
07-05-12, 06:11 PM
Hi

A couple of tips that I've picked up on if they're any help to anyone

Milk is your friend. Anything I do with Ti, I use full fat milk as a flood coolant. I was reccomended this a while ago, and I have to say it works far FAR better than anything that I've used at all. ( Don't laugh, the stuff is awesome... )
You need to clean the milk up before it goes rotten, but I much prefer cleaning up some milk than chucking away mill bits at £30 a piece.

I can't over-emphasis the "flood" bit. Noah's Ark like torrents is where you need to be thinking. Tsunamis. burst dams. etc etc.

Use Aluminium bevels and bits if your using Carbide insert tooling. They're usually the silver bits, as opposed to the gold coloured ones. They cost a £1 or so more per bit, but it's much easier to work with.

High-cobalt drills ( with vast amounts of milk, as for everything else ) they seem to do well. Very low RPM is the way to go, and it needs drilling like brass, rather than steel...... lots of little "pecks" - don't have the drill actually cutting for more than a couple of seconds at a time.

I've also found that going for a four point grind, and a relieved bit, like for brass, makes ( or seems to me to make ) a lot of difference - not everyone agrees with this one though.... maybe it's just a confidence thing.


Grade 6 Titanium is quite a bit easier to work with, with machine tools, than normal CP Titanium you'll get if you don't ask for anything different. It will alo survive forge welding with steel.


You CAN forge weld with steel if you want to. Use one of the higher grades ( 6 or 5 if you can afford it ) and layer it with the steel however you normally would. In between the layers, you need to make sure you've got a load of millscale ( Make your own my heating iron to a white heat, cooling it, and knocking the scale off - repeat as needed ). Results will vary.... it seems more of a black art than a science ( and I am personally VERY bad at it, but I've seen it done well a number of times ).


If your sharpening it ( belt sander etc ) if you let it get hot, it'll work harden so badly it'll be like sharpening glass. Keep dipping it in water or milk every 5 seconds or so. It's a pain, it takes much longer, but at least you'll get there in the end.


AND THE MOST IMPORTANT TIP OF ALL..... ( Ask me how I know this..... )

Don't let Titanium swarf, grindings or filings build up. EVER.

If it gets hot ( a spark might sometimes do it if it's already coming off blue... ) or just because it's bloody awful stuff, it will BURN. We are not talking about a pretty blue flame here. We are talking about melting right through the table of a Bridgeport mill..... And if it starts, it won't stop until it's good and ready to. You can bury burning Ti in the ground and it'll still be going a few days later.

If your working with T ( especially it your using it on a grinder or a belt sander ) ALWAYS make sure every surface is soaking wet ( Milk again ) and have a bucket of fine wet sand within easy reach.

You can choose NOT to do this, but it's damn scary when it happens, and at best you loose some expensive tools, and at worst you loose your forge or your house. I was lucky and I lost a Bridgeport mill, I could have lost more.

Joshua Miller
15-05-12, 03:34 AM
Anyone know if brand new HSS bits will work? im debating getting a carbide bit

shing
15-05-12, 08:46 AM
Anyone know if brand new HSS bits will work? im debating getting a carbide bit

HSS works fine with titanium, in fact I only have standard metal working tools, I don't have any special tools for titanium and I have been using it for years. The only thing is that the softer the titanium alloy, the more trouble it is to work because it gums up tools like saw blades. 6Al4 which is the most common titanium alloy is OK to work with.

It does have a tendency to gall with taps when screw cutting and I've broken lots of M2 taps but thats because they were getting blunt and I should have changed them. If they do get broken in the titanium, just soak them in ferric chloride and the tap dissolves and the titanium is unharmed.

Joshua Miller
15-05-12, 09:10 PM
HSS works fine with titanium, in fact I only have standard metal working tools, I don't have any special tools for titanium and I have been using it for years. The only thing is that the softer the titanium alloy, the more trouble it is to work because it gums up tools like saw blades. 6Al4 which is the most common titanium alloy is OK to work with.

It does have a tendency to gall with taps when screw cutting and I've broken lots of M2 taps but thats because they were getting blunt and I should have changed them. If they do get broken in the titanium, just soak them in ferric chloride and the tap dissolves and the titanium is unharmed.
Thanks Shing! I appreciate it. I've been quite nervous to order some 6al4v to make a liner lock, its only 0.050 so it should be OK to cut with some bi-metal 18 tpi hacksawblades.... i hope.

SlowSteve
17-05-12, 08:53 PM
Treat it like you would brass and your about right.

18tpi blades, peck not push when you drill, use your brass file set. If your tapping/threading, then treat it like a hard copper instead - use lots of lubricant.