View Full Version : bushcrafter VS. Survivalist
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 09:31 PM
what is it with the rivalry with bushcrafters vs. survialists? :S in the end we just go camping? here i get the feeling survivalists are not loved :mad: , but on another site they bash on bushcrafters. :mad: are bushcrafters just being fancy campers? :lol: i just go camping. how about you guys?
Iron Hoarder
12-11-09, 09:33 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the amount of drinking involved.:rolleyes:
Survival = Get the Hell out asap.
Bushcraft = Chill the Hell out asap :D
cheers,
Toddy
same game different reasons for playing
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 09:49 PM
Survival = Get the Hell out asap.
Bushcraft = Chill the Hell out asap :D
cheers,
Toddy
touche.
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 09:50 PM
same game different reasons for playing
:ralmao: but in the end the survialists just relax by going on survival trips. :D
ChargeTTi
12-11-09, 09:53 PM
survival trips.
:ralmao:
Is that going camping and coming back alive?
Chris
I consider myself a bit of both.I am a survival expert though,42 years and still here so I must be good at it.
Anarcus
12-11-09, 10:05 PM
Survivalists stockpile toilet paper for a year, bushcrafters hope they don't need it. ;) :D
Iron Hoarder
12-11-09, 10:07 PM
Survivalists stockpile toilet paper for a year, bushcrafters hope they don't need it. ;) :D
Bushcrafters use bark and leaves.:O :X
Well, yes, but they're the right leaves ;) :D
cheers,
M
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 10:15 PM
:ralmao:
Is that going camping and coming back alive?
Chris
perhaps. :rolleye11
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 10:15 PM
Survivalists stockpile toilet paper for a year, bushcrafters hope they don't need it. ;) :D
this is kinda what i mean about the rivalry. i dont take one side but i am on the fence. nothing wrong with your opinion though. (you know i mean you toddy and anarcus) :D
Saint-Just
12-11-09, 10:20 PM
I had always though that "survivalist" was an Americanism for "bushcrafter"
:pokenest: :pokenest: :pokenest: :girlfight: :girlfight: :girlfight:
:rolleye11 :rolleye11
Iron Hoarder
12-11-09, 10:29 PM
Are you a nutter in the woods or a militant nutter in the woods?
A good bushcrafter will survive anyway, and enjoy it! A survivalist is in too much of a hurry!
Lathe dog
12-11-09, 10:54 PM
Survival = Get the Hell out asap.
Bushcraft = Chill the Hell out asap :D
cheers,
Toddy
I think Toddy got it spot on.
It comes down to the definition of the two words.
Although the two involve the same skills, for me the word survival means
staying alive in the wilderness long enough to either escape or be rescued.
How many people who find themselves in a survival situation have the
necessary skills to stay alive ?.
Whilst bushcraft means knowing the skills to live in the wilderness for
an extended period of time in relative comfort.
Is there such a thing as a planned survival trip?.
When does a planned survival trip turn into a bushcraft trip.:S :S
regards
Steve.
ChargeTTi
12-11-09, 10:59 PM
When does a planned survival trip turn into a bushcraft trip.:S :S
regards
Steve.
When you stop hacking down everything in sight with a bowie and get something constructive done with minimal impact on the area.
Is there a definition of this word "wilderness"? I don't really think we have any in the UK (parts of scotland maybe), though I recognize that tenderfoot is in the US.
Chris
s. niemans
12-11-09, 11:03 PM
Survival = Get the Hell out asap.
Bushcraft = Chill the Hell out asap
cheers,
Toddy
good one mate
gregs656
12-11-09, 11:14 PM
Is there a definition of this word "wilderness"? I don't really think we have any in the UK (parts of scotland maybe), though I recognize that tenderfoot is in the US.
There are several. The 'best' one was probably defined in the wilderness act. A loose definition would be an area that is largely influenced by natural forces, rather than man made ones. I would agree that there are very few areas of true wilderness in the UK.
I don't think I am either. Whilst I can make shelter and fire, I would be knackered when I got hungry. Still, I will continue to enjoy the small slice of 'wild camping' I do.
Bushcrafter Vs survivalist?
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr197/MeAndFe/4B09CASKAYDSCABD8F39CANKM9MQCA92PO8.jpg
This is a hard one.
Wilderness survival(ist) work on bushcraft skills so they can survive the wilderness. They carve things so they don't have to carry them.
Bushcrafters work on wilderness survival skills but don't really need them cause they can always see a building to walk to. :D
Survivalists, militant ones, don't have time to carve spoons cause zombies and the feds are hunting them down.
The goal of them all is the same. Go from camper to outdoorsman.
tenderfoot
12-11-09, 11:33 PM
i am in the US of A and proud of it. i am not in the 'wilds' but camping (bushcrafting as you fellas across the pond call it) can become life or death at any time. like when i was canoeing and i was lost in the woods for two days with only a knife and the contents of my pack and a buddy(just clothing and personal gear ie no food). then survival gear came in handy. so chillin like a villin is fun and all, but being able to survive is more important. but it seems it is more about a view. charge tti i think your view of survivalists is a bit mean, as some of them have similar views as you. i think that in a REAL survival situation environment be dammed survival comes first. however when you are just camping the enviroment should be respeced as we only get one. now seriously guys for the other side check out http://www.survivaltopics.com/forums/ they have similar views as you guys they are just calling it different names. i am on there as tenderfoot so you can find me.
I don't do that much camping, but I use the natural resources of the woodlands, hedges and fields around me, every day in life.
I make, I craft, and I thoroughly enjoy doing it.
The use of these resources, and the acquisition of the knowledge and skills to do so, is an incredibly satisfying way of life.
When I do camp, wander or forage, these same skills, knowledge and appeciation, enrich the experience immeasurably.
It also means that within the environments I find myself I not only survive, I thrive.
Not looking to start an arguement, I just find the *survivalist* mindset sometimes so limiting.
cheers,
Toddy
mick the welder
12-11-09, 11:40 PM
I,ve got it, how about......." SURVIVALCRAFT"...ie , Bushcraft in a hurry:lol: . Shelter building, firelighting, oh and spoon carving against the clock. Pack a very large first aid kit! :D
Now that sounds fun :D
Respect the natural environment though.
cheers,
M
Toddy, I'm not sure you can get three people who call themselves survivalist to agree on a shared mindset.
In my life, all it takes is an engine problem on a fishing trip or a broken limb on a hunt and survival will be an imperative.
I think that's just a situation to be resolved. :D
Suvivalism here is inclined to mean stockpiling to face the zombie armageddon.
cheers,
M
I'm one of those kind as well. It's a very good idea to have a yrs worth of food.
While bushcraft is within the survival fold, perhaps survival is not part of the bushcraft mantra. I don't know.
That's just keeping a pantry :D
We're inclined to think that Survival is a subset of Bushcraft to be honest 8)
cheers,
Toddy
tenderfoot
13-11-09, 12:00 AM
That's just keeping a pantry :D
We're inclined to think that Survival is a subset of Bushcraft to be honest 8)
cheers,
Toddy
survialists are inclined to think the opposite. :D
Survivalists go armed for bear
Bushcrafters go looking for beer.
I always thought along these lines:
Survivalist = get in the woods, try not to die
Bushcraft = get in the woods, try not to die, make/do something nice to talk about later.
I don't mean this in a a p*%s taking way. I believe Survivalists are a little bit more basic skill orientated and there's a good deal of toughing it out. Buschrafters go to the same area but carry the extra kit and knowledge to make life in the woods more comfortable.
An example would be. Survivalist is thirsty he drinks from a stream maybe uses his hands to form a cup. Bushcrafter next to him gets out his saw cuts a suitable chunk of wood, whittles it, uses hook knife, uses newly made cup to drink from stream (posts picks here :D ).
I consider myself to be more survivalist than a bushcrafter but I am learning new skills and trying to employ them when in the woods.
Bushcrafters practice their art while camping
Survivalists attach meaning to it
Toddy, I'm not sure you can get three people who call themselves survivalist to agree on a shared mindset.
In my life, all it takes is an engine problem on a fishing trip or a broken limb on a hunt and survival will be an imperative.
That's a damn good way to look at it, i think - both points.
Certainly, I think that "Bushcrafter" is a term that has been pushed on people as a means to categorise them, as is "Survivalist". I think the suggestion that a camper is automatically practicing bushcraft is a load of BS, so many campers nowadays use no less modern equipment than they do in their day-to-day life, they just complain about the whether while doing it. I don't see how that can be "Bushcraft". Hell, half of them could probably be better described as "Techies" :rolleyes: Of course, others may disagree. Such is the nature of pretty much everything. No two survivalist can agree on what it is, and ditto goes for bushcrafters. They've both become catch-alls for so many things that I doubt anyone can possibly be a master of either - notice that Mr Mears, a fella many consider to be a pretty damn skilled bushcrafter, is often "interviewing" native peoples of other cultures or showing their work rather than just telling/showing you things directly.
That's just keeping a pantry :D
We're inclined to think that Survival is a subset of Bushcraft to be honest 8)
cheers,
Toddy
I tend to agree, I think, that survival is part of Bushcraft. Bushcraft as a whole, and generally, is about comfort and living as well as just surviving.
I think that the reason why survivalism is often belittled so in the UK is because there's very little need for it. Short of a nuclear war, most people will never need survival skills - and those who do need survival skills, climbers and such, it's not "survivalism" it's "health and safety". Britain hasn't really got the masses of pristine wilderness that America has, nor does it generally have the kind of weather where you can break down and have your car literally covered in snow within hours. In some places in the States, as Winter said, just breaking down in a remote area could be a death sentence without good survival knowledge. Thus, survivalism is more appealing and sensible for people who aren't interested in the whole hog.
Pete
That's a wonderfully astute way of describing survival in the UK :D
Health and Safety ! 8)
Until I surfed into BcUK a few years ago looking for something or other, I didn't know that the things I did, the way my friends and I use the natural resources in season, was called anything. The first Scottish meet, they set up Sandbender's laptop to show me RM's "bushcraft" :D 8)
Survival was what aircrew were taught to enable them to get back home, what the rig workers were trained in to ensure they could be rescued; not me and my friends off wandering and foraging and making stuff and finding dinner for a few days.
It most certainly did have overtones of the Mad Max hoarders and bombshelter builders though.
Funny old world, semantics :D
cheers,
M
That's a wonderfully astute way of describing survival in the UK :D
Health and Safety ! 8)
:lol: It sounds a little patronising now I hear it back, but it wasn't meant that way! :P
No, I don't think either of us think of it, or intended it to be taken that way.
It's true though. Health and Safety really is a very good way to describe survival here.
There have been lots of threads on this, lots of rammies too :rolleyes:
Maybe it's because there are really several *survival*s.
a) Basic stuff to get you home safely. The crash and capsize drills, etc.,
b) The careful planning that might or might not ensure safety in the event things go massively wrong.
c) Being able to physically remove oneself from a remote location or a threatening environment in a timely fashion.
cheers,
Toddy
Semantics is right. We aren't even argueing apples and oranges. We are argueing green apples Vs Red.
I used my bushcraft skills to make a fire imperative to my survival a few nights ago. :surrender:
tenderfoot
13-11-09, 03:34 AM
Semantics is right. We aren't even argueing apples and oranges. We are argueing green apples Vs Red.:
PRECISELY why i started the thread because the argument is so stupid! :yuck: i was just waiting for someone to see my way. :D i like to survive
IN STYLE!
what is it with the rivalry with bushcrafters vs. survialists?
I think it's to do with how they start fires. Bushcrafters forage for kindling and wood while survivalists just whittle a bit off the chip on their shoulder. ;) :D :P
in the end we just go camping?
Good point about camping though. We did actually consider renaming this forum "camping and wilderness", till we realised that might have an an unintentionally specific meaning to some people. :lol:
There was me thinking you didn't rename it for fear that people thought you were copying Mr G
Survival Bushcraft with your host Winter.
One piece of soft wood, 2 hook knives, 4 bushcrafters, in a cage.
One ferro rod around a rabbits neck with 3 bushcrafters with just a rubber band to subdue it.
Hepotec
13-11-09, 10:51 AM
The way I normally view the difference is that survivalists base their training and preparation in the ethos of the Military.
Bushcrafters base their preparations and techniques on those of indigenous peoples and ancient/past methods.
MushiSushi
13-11-09, 11:17 AM
Bushcrafter = the countryside is their friend
Survivalist = the countryside is the enemy
HillBill
13-11-09, 11:27 AM
The only difference between survival and bushcraft is intention/application of the same skills
Bushcraft is a skillset and knowledge that takes you away from civilization
Survival is the same but takes you to civilization.
Bushcraft or Survival is nothing but the direction you wish to travel.
Bushcrafters walk into the wilds, light a fire and enjoy
Survivors crash in the wilds, light a fire, and think of which direction to head tomorrow.:D
It all comes down to the individual. If you have the skills of bushcraft/survival then you are both at the same time. The definition comes from what you use it for.
Culloch
13-11-09, 11:43 AM
I've always looked at Survival as being the complete package, ie: Skill Set and Mind Set
Bushcraft could be seen as one of the required skill sets within survival as could learning to swim, taking an advanced driving course or learning first aid. All things which could be used together or separate in order to enhance ones chances of survival.
Although like many other I have in the past guffawed at so called survivalists dressed to the 9's in quasi military kit with huge Ramboesque blades strapped to their legs spouting about the latest government conspiracy and how we should all flee to the hills and join the militia!
I know many people who have such a varied skill set that by definition they could be considered a "Survivalist" but they would never use the term themselves preferring to think of themselves as people who have the skills and mind set to deal with most situations they may or may not encounter wether it be in the woods, an urban earthquake, flood, choking toddler etc or even their vehicle breaking down at night on a little used road out in the boonies!
I think more people on here are survivalists than they care to admit! You don't have to skulk about the hills dressed as a woodland ninja and living on raw rabbits to be prepared for the more unpleasant situations that may occur in life!
Ask yourself the following:
Do you have warm kit in the back of the car in winter?
Do you have a Rescus Shield and Elastoplast tucked away in your wallet?
Do you take a map and compass with you when out in the woods/hills?
Do you EDC a knife?
Do you EDC a torch?
Do you know how to use the above?
Do you know how to light a fire, build a shelter, signal for help, change a wheel etc?
If you answer yes to more than one of the above then perhaps you're closer to being a survivalist than you realise!
Education and planning is the key to survival!
can you swim
do you smoke
can you do first aid
all factors that can be added to your list Culloch
HillBill
13-11-09, 03:12 PM
can you swim
do you smoke
can you do first aid
all factors that can be added to your list Culloch
Where does the smoking fit then? Always have means for a fire?
cuts down on your respiratory capacity
I carry turbo lighters but don't smoke.
Culloch
13-11-09, 03:18 PM
Exactly!
I think we all learn and do things throughout our lives which can either enhance or reduce our chances of survival.
Even small children will carry out a Risk Assessment..if I run out onto the road, will that car hurt me? maybe, Ok, I'll wait till the roads clear......Ooooh I've just survived a potentially life threatening situation!
Thought process such as Risk Assessment and Hazard Perception is part of everyday life for all of us but we rarely think of it as surviving but when you think about it we do it all the time through various practices and lifestyle choices!
Exactly!
I think we all learn and do things throughout our lives which can either enhance or reduce our chances of survival.
Even small children will carry out a Risk Assessment..if I run out onto the road, will that car hurt me? maybe, Ok, I'll wait till the roads clear......Ooooh I've just survived a potentially life threatening situation!
Thought process such as Risk Assessment and Hazard Perception is part of everyday life for all of us but we rarely think of it as surviving but when you think about it we do it all the time through various practices and lifestyle choices!
Hence Marriage :D
Ok, Clan, gang, family, country, club, whatever.
Humans do well in groups.
Culloch
13-11-09, 03:26 PM
No!
Marriage is the failure to perceive the hazard and incorrectly assessing the Risk!
They tend to outlive us.
Who else will look after you in your dotage?
...then again why do they outlive us? :O :D
graham_s
13-11-09, 03:31 PM
Survival is staying alive until you are rescued
Bushcraft is not needing to be rescued.
Culloch
13-11-09, 03:38 PM
Marriage is merely a good indicator that your Escape and Evasion Plan required more work!
PS_Bond
13-11-09, 03:43 PM
I think more people on here are survivalists than they care to admit! You don't have to skulk about the hills dressed as a woodland ninja and living on raw rabbits to be prepared for the more unpleasant situations that may occur in life!
Ah, it all makes sense now:
Bushcraft - pirate.
Survivalist - ninja.
HSE - zombies.
Culloch
13-11-09, 03:45 PM
Ah, it all makes sense now:
Bushcraft - pirate.
Survivalist - ninja.
HSE - zombies.
Finally!!!
Somebody puts it into words we can understand here on BB!:rolleyes:
Ah, it all makes sense now:
Bushcraft - pirate.
Survivalist - ninja.
HSE - zombies.
Hence the need for all those Zombie knives:D
Culloch
13-11-09, 03:55 PM
Hence the need for all those Zombie knives:D
No mate' 1 for each hand is enough for most folks...you've just got issues!:]
No mate' 1 for each hand is enough for most folks...you've just got issues!:]
Or more Zombies!
...you've never been to Chatham? :lol:
rik_uk3
13-11-09, 04:46 PM
Survival is about getting through a particular survival situation
Bushcraft is a more comfortable style of camping and we drink more:)
PS_Bond
13-11-09, 05:05 PM
Bushcraft is a more comfortable style of camping and we drink more:)
And go "Arrrr" a lot.
Culloch
13-11-09, 09:12 PM
Or more Zombies!
...you've never been to Chatham? :lol:
Actually mate I've spent rather a lot of time there, (done the Arms Explosive Search Course 4 times!). Still have "fond" memories of the Casino Rooms and Big Sid who runs the Command House is a personal mate of mine! but yes Chatham is a toilet!
Commonly known as "Chav Command" by the Royal Engineers!
harryf3
26-11-09, 11:46 AM
survivalist
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/resident_evil_extinction_milla_jovovich_with_knive s.jpg
bushcrafter
http://www.ravenlore.co.uk/assets/images/Small-Camp.jpg
see the difference? :D
Ru Titley
26-11-09, 12:02 PM
Well If the difference is clearly shown in those two pictures , then Im with the Survivalists , She looks like She'd kill far more Zombies and would be a better:censored: .:O
Nice khuks by the way !
ngraudal
26-11-09, 12:07 PM
Bushcraft: A hobby, taking a trip for fun to enjoy nature and "co-operate" with it
Survival: Moving through or sustaining one self in a hostile enviroment, doesn't have to be a military hostility, nature can be hostile too.
MeetTheGeeks
26-11-09, 12:58 PM
survivalist
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/resident_evil_extinction_milla_jovovich_with_knive s.jpg
bushcrafter
http://www.ravenlore.co.uk/assets/images/Small-Camp.jpg
see the difference? :D
Ones a hottie the others hairy? Is that what you mean, bushies do it with beards:D
OI! :O
Beards indeed :rolleyes:
Mother Nature didn't supply us all !
cheers,
Toddy
Dear me this is tiresome.
One is camping. Don't argue, it's camping.
The other is being shot down and chased by very angry people with guns who really want to kill you because of all the bombs you just dropped on their village, which killed their extended family and destroyed their method of subsistence.
It's a fairly easy distinction to make.
Danzo
TallNHairyDave
30-11-09, 01:35 AM
Dear me this is tiresome.
One is camping. Don't argue, it's camping.
The other is being shot down and chased by very angry people with guns who really want to kill you because of all the bombs you just dropped on their village, which killed their extended family and destroyed their method of subsistence.
It's a fairly easy distinction to make.
Danzo
Brilliant! Absolutely Brilliant :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
Dear me this is tiresome.
One is camping. Don't argue, it's camping.
The other is being shot down and chased by very angry people with guns who really want to kill you because of all the bombs you just dropped on their village, which killed their extended family and destroyed their method of subsistence.
It's a fairly easy distinction to make.
Danzo
Hahaha, so, if my boat sinks again, I'm camping on the beach overnight, or am I surviving? :surrender:
Some of us really do live remote enough that bushcraft/fieldcraft skills are a realistic survival skillset.
leealanr
30-11-09, 10:24 AM
Oh! But She does look good though doesn't she!
Thank you Harry and Ru, best laugh I have had in a while!
Are stockings an essential part of a Survivalists kit?
Or A beard and silly hat for a Bushcrafter?
Alan L.
Can you camp in Nottingham?
Only if you're big enough and hairy enough to scare off any who object ;)
cheers,
Toddy
Only if you're big enough and hairy enough to scare off any who object ;)
cheers,
Toddy
...and camp enough...?
:D Pantomine dame stuff even :lol:
Anyway, in answer to the question.......
It's the definition of Survivalist that's the issue.
I have no desire to be considered in the same light as TEOTWAWKI mad max / cult / pseudo military nutters who stockpile baked beans and offer their missus' service for tp :O
Yes, we really did get a post like that from a *survivalist* on BcUK a year or so ago. Turns out that tp meant toilet paper :X
Survivalism to us is simply utilising skills, regardless of what you have to destroy to do so, that allow one to survive an event or situation until rescued or returned to civilization.
Living in a harsh environment is just living.
cheers,
Toddy
ZDP-189
30-11-09, 01:53 PM
Was she hot?
Does your mother in law look 'hot' these days ? :]
The gentleman offering her services, I presumed he meant her domestic or agricultural labour but the thread wasn't taken that way, was older than I am, and from all accounts the lady was his equal.
Maybe she just wanted a change of scenery for a bit :rolleyes:
I do know that if my HWMBLT had offered me like that his a**e would have stotted off the pavement damned quick, and I'm generally a mild mannered, well behaved housewife :) Not some Uzi swinging, field ploughing, cammo knicker clad Valkyrie.
Told you, Survivalists are nutters :D
Besides, they're fun to wind up ;)
cheers,
Toddy
I'm generally a mild mannered, well behaved housewife :) Not some Uzi swinging, field ploughing, cammo knicker clad Valkyrie.
:lol:
Ah how that tickled me :)
But I am..........for a wee middle aged Scotswoman :D :D
cheers,
M
graham_s
30-11-09, 08:57 PM
But I am..........for a wee middle aged Scotswoman :D :D
cheers,
M
And not as scary in real life :D
tenderfoot
30-11-09, 09:19 PM
survivalist
http://www.bennadel.com/resources/uploads/resident_evil_extinction_milla_jovovich_with_knive s.jpg
bushcrafter
http://www.ravenlore.co.uk/assets/images/Small-Camp.jpg
see the difference? :D
i think i like survivalists more now! :lol:
But I am..........for a wee middle aged Scotswoman :D :D
cheers,
M
That's plenty to know that you ain't the one who has to behave in your household! :P Scottish women may be wee, but they're bloody mighty :P
If you survive while participating in bushcraft you are a survivalist.
But if you are conducting bushcraft to survive you are a bushcrafter. :)
MeetTheGeeks
21-12-09, 10:16 AM
that doesnt sound right:huh:
Can we argee on, if you use a knife, who cares?
deovolens
21-12-09, 12:26 PM
Danzo congrats, you gave the perfect definition of the modern humanitary war:
The other is being shot down and chased by very angry people with guns who really want to kill you because of all the bombs you just dropped on their village, which killed their extended family and destroyed their method of subsistence.
In my times with the light cavalry and recon we were more in favor for" hide and destroy".
Were is also my place between those two hostile camps, I am just a realist.
that doesnt sound right:huh:
Can we argee on, if you use a knife, who cares?
I agree :)
MeetTheGeeks
21-12-09, 11:38 PM
I may have had a beer when I wrote that you know.. :lol:
ebartonb
05-04-10, 11:14 PM
forget the rvalry, we all practice survival all the time and we teach it to our kids starting with the green cross code
parbajtor
06-04-10, 03:28 PM
That's a wonderfully astute way of describing survival in the UK :D
Health and Safety ! 8)
Until I surfed into BcUK a few years ago looking for something or other, I didn't know that the things I did, the way my friends and I use the natural resources in season, was called anything. The first Scottish meet, they set up Sandbender's laptop to show me RM's "bushcraft" :D 8)
Survival was what aircrew were taught to enable them to get back home, what the rig workers were trained in to ensure they could be rescued; not me and my friends off wandering and foraging and making stuff and finding dinner for a few days.
It most certainly did have overtones of the Mad Max hoarders and bombshelter builders though.
Funny old world, semantics :D
cheers,
M
I'm not anti-semantic, some of my best friends are words
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