View Full Version : Importing a practice balisong with dull blade?
GavSalkeld
12-09-03, 01:52 AM
Hey there everyone, newbiee on the block! :dunno:
Just a quick question, would it STILL be considered illegal to import one of these?
http://knives.iisports.com/product.asp?dept_id=2509&pf_id=KO2000A
I'd be interested in hearing about this, from (former) law enforcement personnel especially.
Welcome to the forums Gav, not a bobby, former or otherwise, but if it has no point and no cutting edge (and cant be sharpened), then it aint a knife. Problem is, you might have to go through the motions and prove it.
What's special about "former" officers? There are a number of active officers on these forums too - Just curious. ;)
GavSalkeld
12-09-03, 03:34 PM
Hi, and thanks for the warm welcome.
So it sounds safe, does it? I'm a filmmaker you see and need one of these knives for use in a fight sequence and I dont want my cast being cut to shreds!
I put "former" in brackets because, in the context of the sentence, it was meant to mean I would like to hear from law enforcement people, former or active. I'm not explaining myself to well am I? Basically, if I only wanted to hear from former people, I wouldn't have added the brackets! :)
Anyone else got any views on me importing one of these?
It sounds legal to me, it's clearly blunt, they specifically say it cant be sharpened, which must mean the blade material is something completely unsuitable for the purpose. But if it gets opened in customs, it's whether the guy who opens the box rationalises it the same way. I'm sure in the final outcome, it'd be safe, but you might have to jump through some hoops to get there.
I can think of no reason why it would be illegal, but it's one of those "untested" things.
Hi Gav and welcome
Martyn is right,but if it says 'balisong' or 'butterfly knife' on your import package and it gets busted you will have a no-win fight to get it back, at least in terms of a filming schedule.
Don't film-makers get exemptions for prop weapons for filming? Dunno what level of film making you are at but why not contact the BFI/BBC/Channel 4 and through them some prop agencies? You see switchblades in films and shows made here so ther must be some way round it.
Hope that helps and good luck with your film.
Dan
Colin KC
12-09-03, 05:24 PM
Mushy might know:D
GavSalkeld
12-09-03, 06:06 PM
Thanks for the kind words, people. I'd like to clear this up for good if I can before I take any further action.
Thanks for the kind words, people. I'd like to clear this up for good if I can before I take any further action.
I think HM customs & Excise are the only ones that can do that Gav. All you gonna get here is learned opinion - which seems to agree, that the trainers are not illegal, but may (read, probably will) require explanation to customs.
As Colin mentioned, Mushi makes film props for a living, maybe he can help with another source.
GavSalkeld
12-09-03, 07:23 PM
I hope customs dont open it! I dont know if I should buy one or not but I dont think they will mind. If this Mushi can help me out tho, that would be greatly appreciated.
keith_beef
12-09-03, 09:33 PM
I hope customs dont open it! I dont know if I should buy one or not but I dont think they will mind. If this Mushi can help me out tho, that would be greatly appreciated.
Just hop on the Eurostar, and buy one cash in Paris at a martial arts shop....
Or try some martial arts retailers in the UK... I don't know when the law banning those rolling-pins tied together was passed, but they were in shop windows in Sheffield when I was 15 or 16 (so in about 1985/86), and I'm sure knife training drones were, too.
Keith.
GavSalkeld
12-09-03, 11:50 PM
Thanks Keith, but I dont have the time or the money mate!
Do you know of any UK martial arts online stores?
Hi Gav
www.battleorders.co.uk have a huge selection of weaponry divided into sections for swords, knives, martial arts etc etc. They have a mail order service and a shop down Hastings way. I know that in the past they have supplied movie companies (on loan !) and would accept special orders.
I bought some swords from them some years ago when their were far fewer suppliers in the UK and their service was prompt and prices OK then, given the lack of competition. They are not top end stuff (no Paul Chen katanas) but that isn't their market anyway.
Hope that helps
Dan
......and www.blades-uk.com.
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 09:20 AM
it's not a filmmaker's exemption .. there is a trade called Armourer in films and if weapons are used and fighting is done with them etc. ..... then filmmaker's insurance requires an armourer and/or fight co-ordinater on set ... depending on what is to be done with the weapon, yes even a blunt weapon like you have in mind.
legally speaking I think you will be ok with that trainer, but it is all dependent on perception, people's first perceptions count and if they open the package they will respond to the first thing they see and ask questions later, so keep your fingers crossed.
As to using it for filming, you should have an armourer on set and if fighting is to be done you need a fight co-ordinater or your films insurance may not cover a potential injury.
I recently converted a flick comb and put an aluminium blade in for The Bill ..... they still needed an armourer for filming.
have you ordered it already?
there's a couple of prop weapons company called Baptis and Perdix (http://www.perdix.co.uk/index.htm)
Armourers can be found at The Knowledge (http://www.theknowledgeonline.com/results-catid.aspx?type=catid&q=30406) and they would know more about it than me
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 09:29 AM
I don't know when the law banning those rolling-pins tied together was passed, but they were in shop windows in Sheffield when I was 15 or 16 (so in about 1985/86), Keith.
Do you mean Nunchaku? ... you can still buy them
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 02:19 PM
this might help Universal Combat ltd. (http://www.universalcombat.demon.co.uk/) :swordfigh :quake:
GavSalkeld
13-09-03, 03:30 PM
Thanks guys! You've all been wonderful. If I have no joy on the stores, I'll order that trainer.
Mushi, I take it you work in TV?
GavSalkeld
13-09-03, 03:35 PM
One more thing. Having never had to deal with Customs before, if they do open it will they just confiscate it and send me a letter telling me I've been a bad boy or will I be sent to jail and fined thousands of pounds?
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 03:53 PM
I doubt you will be sent to jail ... if it ever went to court, you'd likely win ... should they open it, it would probably get confiscated unless you followed it up.
Yes I work freelance in special effects, prosthetics, model making and prop making for film and TV
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 03:54 PM
oh and the company I called Bapti before, is actually Zorg and Bapty
GavSalkeld
13-09-03, 04:38 PM
Thanks Mushi.
How did you get into the business?
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 05:20 PM
ducking and diving, wriggling and twisting ..... got fed up with being an exhibition joiner and went back to college for a theatre & film technical arts degree ..... from then on it's been a struggle for recognition and jobs ..... sometimes the good ones come along and sometimes you are scraping by ...... not something I would recommend to everyone
keith_beef
13-09-03, 07:53 PM
Do you mean Nunchaku? ... you can still buy them
Yeah, that's it. Two rolling pins joined with two or three inches of clothes-line.
I thought they were on a list of banned 'weapons' that goes something like:
"balisongs, butterfliy knives, butter knives, throwing stars, shuriken, kusarigama, chain-sickle, bi-sickle, motor-sickle, Kama, nunchaku, rolling-pins, pins, needles, stick-swords, sticks, stones, fingernails....."
Keith.
GavSalkeld
13-09-03, 08:26 PM
Damn, that online store doesnt ship overseas!
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 09:28 PM
Yeah, that's it. Two rolling pins joined with two or three inches of clothes-line.
I thought they were on a list of banned 'weapons' that goes something like:
"balisongs, butterfliy knives, butter knives, throwing stars, shuriken, kusarigama, chain-sickle, bi-sickle, motor-sickle, Kama, nunchaku, rolling-pins, pins, needles, stick-swords, sticks, stones, fingernails....."
Keith.
you must be confusing that with the BBFC ban ... which went as far as cutting a scene from the film "Dragnet" with tom hanks and dan ackroyd because a poster of Bruce Lee was in the background holding a pair nuchaku ... they are still readily available to buy as "curios" in many shops in the UK ... at least that is how The Rangers Trading Post in Surbiton has them labelled.
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 09:30 PM
try bapty Gav ...... sorry, haven't got the number but they should be available on directory enquiries
MushiSushi
13-09-03, 09:31 PM
short of that ..... I'll charge you £250 to make you a blunt bali ;)
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 12:07 AM
Yeah the BBFC suck.
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 12:09 AM
short of that ..... I'll charge you £250 to make you a blunt bali ;)
£250?! Man thats steep. I got in contact with a propmaker in the UK last year who worked in film and TV and he said he would build one for £10. His list of credits was impressive. But one day he stopped emailing me. :banghead: Maybe we was cautioned?
£250?! Man thats steep. I got in contact with a propmaker in the UK last year who worked in film and TV and he said he would build one for £10. His list of credits was impressive. But one day he stopped emailing me. :banghead: Maybe we was cautioned?maybe he went bankrupt?
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 01:35 AM
Who knows...
MushiSushi
14-09-03, 08:07 AM
materials would be £10 ish... then I got a day and a bit of labour to throw on. :rolleyes:
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 05:12 PM
materials would be £10 ish... then I got a day and a bit of labour to throw on. :rolleyes:
If it was only gonna cost £10 I'd do it. See, I dont work in films as in Hollywood films, I'm an amateur filmmaker who does "shorts" in his spare time, little films of around 10mins in length when I am not doing university work. I did a BTEC Media course at college, where I came out with great marks, and I am doing Video and New Media at uni now. So, as I hope you can appreciate, I'd be thrilled if you were to make me a fake balisong, but being a student I simply dont have hundreds of pounds to spend.
Can we come to an arrangement?
MushiSushi
14-09-03, 06:56 PM
do you have a pretty sister to trade?
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 07:04 PM
No, I dont thank you very much! > : (
MushiSushi
14-09-03, 07:15 PM
I seriously do this for a living and don't think I could make a decent job of a balanced prop balisong with the right actions in less than a day and my standard day rate is £150 plus materials. if you look in the gallery, there are a couple of props I made for ITV,s MIT series, charged at £200 each. the thing is, if you wanted a prop 10" sabatier, or a foam estwing 20lb hammer, I already have the moulds and would charge for materials and a couple of hours, where the bali is concerned, it's a build from scratch. I couldn't do it for less that £170.
Can we come to an arrangement?
Gave, mushi is right, you wont find anyone to make you a one off that will work realistically (Iassume you want the actor to run though some flashy moves?). To do that the bali will need to be balanced and well built - pretty damned near production quality. You wont get that off any knifemaker for a tenner. What you are asking, is for someone to make you a custom balisong - albeit a trainer. Mushi's day rates are pretty much par for the course - £180 is a bargain.
If It were me, I would import the blunt trainer from the US or somewhere and be prepared to explain the purpose to HM cutoms if asked. It's your choice though, you will not find anyone to give you a "definite" answer, because untill someone tries it, no one knows.
If it helps, I imported a 36" shinto katana, not a toy, a fully live, diferentially hardened, fully sharp carbon steel sword. It was opened by customs, examined, and forwarded to me - no problems.
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 08:35 PM
...if you look in the gallery, there are a couple of props I made for ITV,s MIT series, charged at £200 each...
Where's this gallery mate? I'd love to look at it.
I could always get a flick comb and cover with aluminum like, thats a good idea.
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 08:37 PM
If It were me, I would import the blunt trainer from the US...
They don't ship internationally, as I said before.
If it helps, I imported a 36" shinto katana, not a toy, a fully live, diferentially hardened, fully sharp carbon steel sword. It was opened by customs, examined, and forwarded to me - no problems.
They're not illegal though, are they? And you're hardly going to go round threatening people with it! Balisongs are illegal cos its a "use in public" thing isnt it? Gangs are fond of them, etc. Your katana probably got through cos Customs thought it was antique or something.
MushiSushi
14-09-03, 09:00 PM
top of the page ..... click gallery ;)
Where's this gallery mate? I'd love to look at it.
If you click on the "gallery" button in mushi's posts, you will be taken to all of mushi's own picture entries in the gallery.
They don't ship internationally, as I said before.
There are many US websites that sell blisong trainers, one of them *will* ship internationally.
They're not illegal though, are they?Illegal to carry one in the street - yes, illegal to own, no.
And you're hardly going to go round threatening people with it! Balisongs are illegal cos its a "use in public" thing isnt it? Gangs are fond of them, etc. Your katana probably got through cos Customs thought it was antique or something.
My katana got through because it is not illegal to own or import a katana. It doesnt have anything to do with use in public, or suspected age of the sword. It's a perfectly leagal-to own/import/buy/sell/manufacture item. Balisongs are on the banned weapons list and cant be imported/purchased/manufactured or sold at all. A blunt trainer, is not a knife though, you cant stab or cut anyone with it. It might as well be made of rubber. You cant import a fully fuctioning H&K MP5, but there are thousands of websites selling perfectly legal inert replicas. You have a legitimate reason for wanting to get a trainer. You may have to explain that to customs though.
just my opinion, not tested, not advice, your choice.
GavSalkeld
14-09-03, 10:52 PM
Martyn, you misunderstood me but never mind!
Does anyone know online retailers selling trainers? I can only find countless iisports.com mirrors and none of them ship internationally.
the knifecentre have several benchmade trainers on the following page
http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-CustomListProducts?Benchmade%20Butterfly%20Knives, 2,16,=,bm,&,158,=,butterfly
they have holes in the blade but this may make it easier to get through customs.
they ship out internationally and I have used them for years.
I would give them a ring rather than do it online as you may way want the wording on the customs paperwork a little different.
Tell Howard I said helo :D
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