Ko Ichimonji Tachi,,,,,,,,,,or not!!!

[Greyman]

Interesting day today, apart from a Japanese sword collecting fest with some old friends at my place, a new collector came by with his 25k purchase. This sword was aquired some eight months ago with Japanese society papers that gave it just under Juyo, stated that it was Ko Ichimonji and c1250.

The papers dated from the early 60's so he felt that this was safe {We are all aware that in the 70/80's some spurious papers were issued fro a variety of reasons........} He sent the sword via a US dealer, back to Japan for a polish although it was still in 95% from the last and with hopes that it would this time achieve Juyo.

When he recieved a letter from the head of the society saying it was both fake and from the Muromachi period, he is understandably upset!, add to this that the dealer then valued the sword at 1700.........

My question to the membership is this, Have any had a similar experience?, you will not be quoted I can assure you. The 'Ichi' character seems very old and in the right position on the Nakago, but as most collectors do not see any from this period in their collecting life { I have handled only one, that from the Compton collection that was a naginata Nioshi with gold attribution to Ichimonji} we have little expertise on the subject but do expect the Japanese societies to have at least..........enough.

[Kevin]

Wow..thats a huge shock (and loss). Will your friend have any chance of recuperating his money from the seller?....

[lemoneyewash]

Way, way above my head Greyman, but fascinating! :)

Is there no means of compensation with the seller or the Japanese society at the very least?

How certain are they that the papers from the Japanese society ARE fake and it was not their mistake?

[Greyman]

Way, way above my head Greyman, but fascinating! :)

Is there no means of compensation with the seller or the Japanese society at the very least?

How certain are they that the papers from the Japanese society ARE fake and it was not their mistake?


(Reply to both)

Interesting so far, it seems that the papers issued then 'Denied' were not commented on by my collector, seems he sent the sword via a third party in the US, so as far as the Japanese society were concerned this was a new apraisal......
The point I suppose is that this throws into question even swords with the very top papers of Juyo etc.

As to compensation, well the chap he bought it from I have no doubt sold on the basis of the Japanese paper, should he be criticised?. Would a compensation claim against him be recognised? and the main question could be that should a 'Second opinion' by another shinsa team forty odd years later, be recognised or not?.

Beats me but does come dowen to " Is a Juyo sword valued at 25k and above" have real assured monetary value?. :?:

[stonehard]

Any sword should never have been brought on monetary value. Any man who considers a swords true value in money only has himself to blame. When he first saw the sword did he buy it for what he perceived it to be, its value or its beauty.
The physical and visual beauty has not in reality changed.
Yes it may not be the sword of that period but is it any the less beautiful. The chances are more than one person has been led to believe it is something that it is not. Some may have been suspicious and quietly passed it on. Sadly your fellow collector has been the one to bring its true credibility to light. This happened because he wanted the sword to achieve a higher status than it had.
The only reason he wanted it to reach Juyo is one of sheer avarice the sword doesn't change. Only its humanly perceived status.
If the collector had kept it for what it was and enjoyed it for what he thought it was nothing would have changed. sadly perhaps he only has himself to blame

[Stuart Ackerman]

I once owned an unsigned Nihonto sword, blade only, and no one would look at it, as it was in a bad condition. I polished it in my spare time, and after a year or so, an evaluater from Japan glanced at it, would not touch it, but said that it was a not too bad polish. I made up a magnolia saya, Sterling silver fittings, no tsuba.
I sold it to a friend for less than US$500-00, and he sold it on for about US$1000-00.
Who knows where it will end up?
I would not mind having it back now, and the next one I come across, I won't be so eager to sell, regardless of condition...

[Greyman]

I once owned an unsigned Nihonto sword, blade only, and no one would look at it, as it was in a bad condition. I polished it in my spare time, and after a year or so, an evaluater from Japan glanced at it, would not touch it, but said that it was a not too bad polish. I made up a magnolia saya, Sterling silver fittings, no tsuba.
I sold it to a friend for less than US$500-00, and he sold it on for about US$1000-00.
Who knows where it will end up?
I would not mind having it back now, and the next one I come across, I won't be so eager to sell, regardless of condition...

( By the way I did answere your request for photographs of the Gassan, mail me direct if you still want them.)

......Reply to both......


I think the comments are justified by the first reply but only if you take into consideration that 25k is a vast amount of money for most collectors, perhaps not to you. That the psychology of collecting is almost always a treasure hunt as well as the pursuet of knowledge. All swords or any Antique has to have a monetary value, i have for forty years collected all forms of Japanese and Chinese art when affordable,it is only now that when selling my collection I sometimes reflect that perhaps I should have been more delegent in values.

Two things are important here. The first is that a paper albeit that on a sword or that pertaining to a motor car, should have some value. I suspect that in the UK if a motor vehicle had a MOT certificate certifying that all was well then you would purchase with some degree of confidence......

This should apply to swords should it not?. Then you can advance your knowledge based on the study of that blade, assure yourself and compare, then perhaps when you see the next make your own decision. Would you agree?.

The pursuit of knowledge is a sad but true trait of us homosapiens, caused a pile of problems over the way, it does excuse a bundle but in this case it is similar to the maths master at your school saying that 2+2=4 then saying "Perhaps not"

[shing]

I think one of the problems with the Japanese sword scene is its reliance on appraisers and judges, people who are experts in old and new swords. Collectors rely on their judgement and pay accordingly and may not fully develop their own to look for and understand the merits of a sword themselves. In this situation, it would be easier for a collector to be misled because he cannot fully appraise the sword himself and relies on third parties or documentation. I think its integral to the enjoyment of collecting for the collector to educate himself in his field of interest so he can fully appreciate what he has.

[Greyman]

I think one of the problems with the Japanese sword scene is its reliance on appraisers and judges, people who are experts in old and new swords. Collectors rely on their judgement and pay accordingly and may not fully develop their own to look for and understand the merits of a sword themselves. In this situation, it would be easier for a collector to be misled because he cannot fully appraise the sword himself and relies on third parties or documentation. I think its integral to the enjoyment of collecting for the collector to educate himself in his field of interest so he can fully appreciate what he has.


Of course you are right and that was always the way when I started, today such a reliance on papers particularly by those the other side of the pond,and of course the new and also perhaps the lazy, make for confusion and inevitably a loss of collectors to the world of Nihonto.
Papers have always hd question marks as have shinsa teams. I remember some shinsa where confusion reigned,people with existing papers either hoped for better or some wanted confirmation, results were all over the place but on "Out of the woodwork swords" that we had paid little for and the opinion was equally cost wise, small.
I am not going to beat a dead horse here, just hope that some will read this, study more and be cautious when buying based on papers alone.

[Danzo]

Thanks Greyman, for some interesting thoughts about Japanese swords.

Would you consider writing a piece that could stand as a 'sticky' at the top of the page? You seem both knowledgeable and sensible when it comes to Nihinto and I am a firm believer in taking practical wisdom where I can find it.

Danzo

[Stuart Ackerman]

Good idea Danzo, Greyman could be "our" Nihonto expert, no disrespect intended...
I have always had a fascination with the sword, and Nippon designs and types have a magical air about them. Cutting through the nonsense about their abilities, we have interesting items to hold and behold...

[shing]

I would appreciate information about swords too, they have always been an interest even if way out of my pocket.

[dtalbot]

I would appreciate information about swords too, they have always been an interest even if way out of my pocket.
Same here
David

[Greyman]

I am 'Honoured' gentlemen...........{Not often in my collecting life}

Am not an expert, if fact I have met few experts over the forty years, just folk who know a little more than most....and some who think they do!.

Only to pleased, how?. :lol:

[Stuart Ackerman]

"ex" is a has been...
"spurt" is a drip under pressure... :D

Greyman, we will call you a Scholar of Note.... :)

[Greyman]

"ex" is a has been...
"spurt" is a drip under pressure... :D

Greyman, we will call you a Scholar of Note.... :)

Have always enjoyed three humours, Sots,Aussie & New Zealand..........we English are so worried about damn near everything, humour has gone to the wall. BUT, we did show you all how to play Cricket & Rugby. :rolleyes:

[Stuart Ackerman]

Actually I am South African..there's a rugby joke for you...

[Greyman]

I have alway enjoyed the humour of three nations,The Scots, the Australians {Well they have to be funny to make up for their declining sporting ability} and those in the 'Lord of the rings' country, New Zealand.
The English are so indented in world horror we relie on you chaps to lighten us, plus we did show you how to plat Cricket & Rugby. Then allowed you a few years of triumph befor.......... :rolleyes:



"OOOOOOPS"

[Danzo]

I am 'Honoured' gentlemen...........{Not often in my collecting life}

Am not an expert, if fact I have met few experts over the forty years, just folk who know a little more than most....and some who think they do!.

Only to pleased, how?. :lol:

Hi Greyman

Modesty becomes the knowledgeable man, and I will respect your assertion that you are not an expert in Nihonto.

However, you appear to know as much about Japanese swords as anybody I have ever met so I think you will do well enough as the author of a 'sticky'.

What should you write? Well, as much as you feel able from your knowledge of Japanese swords and related things. All knowledge is good. Once you have done that I will make it into a 'sticky' which is a permanant thread at the top of the forum. I will leave that open for anyone else to contribute, ask questions etc. Please don't feel obliged to answer interminable questions as other people who have knowledge may well kick in, but if you are able to answer questions occasionally then all the better.

Many thanks

Danzo

[Greyman]

hiDanzo
willdobutthespacebarhasgoneonthekeyboard,assoonasI replace...............! :mad:

[Greyman]

Hi Greyman

Modesty becomes the knowledgeable man, and I will respect your assertion that you are not an expert in Nihonto.

However, you appear to know as much about Japanese swords as anybody I have ever met so I think you will do well enough as the author of a 'sticky'.

What should you write? Well, as much as you feel able from your knowledge of Japanese swords and related things. All knowledge is good. Once you have done that I will make it into a 'sticky' which is a permanant thread at the top of the forum. I will leave that open for anyone else to contribute, ask questions etc. Please don't feel obliged to answer interminable questions as other people who have knowledge may well kick in, but if you are able to answer questions occasionally then all the better.

Many thanks

Danzo

The mail I sent you can be edited,scrapped or whatever, but it is intende to be an on going forum piece.
I will attempt to answere all questions on publish weekly/Monthly thoughts.
Let me know

[richard ball]

hi guys i am interasted in collecting japanese nihinto but i am scared of getting ripped off any advice?

[Kargol]

Read widely.
Very widely.
Then go back and read some more.
Then spend many months on the inter-web-thing looking at what's available, and how much it's going for.

Then hope that one day your well meaning girlfriend doesn't bring it up to a mirror finish with Autosol while you're out trying to pay the mortgage...

Essential reading should include:
The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords
Nagayama (Trans: Mishina), kODANSHA, Tokyo 1995

Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths
Kapp/Yoshihara KODANSHA, Tokyo 2002

I believe Greyman has posted a more comprehensive list elsewhere.
Good luck on your quest, it can be a very rewarding persuit.
If there's a club in your area, try practicing Iaido for a couple of months.
It takes the light-sabre envy away...