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  1. #61
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    next up Puuronvarsi 80 unbuilt, factory grind

    tip needs slight edgeline reshape

    dead good curved-spine tip grind, the resolution of the quite flat flats -to- tip is as armorpiercing as

    this is getting a sharpen + cleanup .. no full polish, the grindlines will partly remain
    Last edited by etorix; 18-12-10 at 02:15 AM.
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  2. #62
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    Great thread. Thanks
    My recent observations:
    I've been using diamond stones a lot recently. I'm still committed to small DMT ones (approx 20mmx60mm) for refining grind lines and nothing is better for me for the level of control I can get. But you have to use appropriately to get the best life and use.
    Also, my current opinion is that the Duo Lap are the best go-anywhere, lightweight, general purpose sharpening tools.
    But, I now have no inclination to buy larger diamond stones. For me, my search for larger stones will be focussed on water stones and I will need to read this thread in some detail!

    Use of mainly DMT diamonds:
    I've got XX coarse(Trend), x coarse (Black), coarse (Blue), fine (red) and super fine (green); some small and some duo fold.
    The bigger grits don't always cut faster than the finer grits. Strangely, this seems most likely on harder steel.
    You have to be careful with the xx and x. If you go too wild and press too hard then they can rip out big hard chunks of carbides from the steel and these particles scratch much more deeply than the XX grit itself. These scratches take a lot of effort to remove.
    Also, the bigger grits lose the diamonds more easily. The diamonds are held in a tough matrix, but they can get ripped out if you press too hard or the steel you are grinding is a mix of hard bits in a tough matrix. The quickest way I know to ruin a coarse diamond stone is to press hard and wild while sharpening cheap stainless kitchen knives - I trashed a new stone in minutes. I will now never use xx or x on kitchen knives! I am also careful not to press too hard with blue on kitchen knives.
    Diamonds can be used without lubrication but my quickest removal rates so far have been achieved by applying a small drop of 3in1 and cleaning/reapplying frequently (better than water, but not tried other oils).
    I will use small XX stone where I have a lot of refining to do in a small area (and can only move the stone a small amount).
    Because of these limitations, I think the path to high removal rates is waterstone rather than diamond.

    Waterstones
    I have a few artificial stones, mostly from Axminster. The large 250 grit block is nice to use but is soft and goes out of shape quickly. It is clearly not as fast cutting as fresh 80 grit Aluminium Oxide paper, and the finish isn't much better, but I only get a few strokes on the paper before it goes off whereas the waterstone keeps cutting.
    I have 800 and 1200 grits and I'm a bit disappointed but I don't feel I have given them fair chance yet (had them 3 years though!).
    I have the 1000/6000 combination. The 1000 grit seems faster than the 800 and feels nicer to use. So far for me, the 6000 will give a bright polish and does not deliver the 'misty' finish that seemed to be the quest for the start of this thread.
    I have an old 250/1000 from tabwell tools and cannot remember the make but it was cheap yet is also very nice to use.
    My conclusions: The grit size alone does not tell you all about speed of cut or the finish you can obtain. The cheap combination stones are a great introduction but before investing in single grit stones I would suggest researching the information in this thread. I'll be really interested in a summary of recommendations.
    Recently I have started to cut small blocks off some of the larger stones and use these applied to the blade rather than moving the blade on a large stone. This takes much less skill and I recommend the approach for people less practised or cautious. However, I am also convinced that this is ultimately not as fast as applying the blade to a big stone.
    Last edited by jhobson; 13-12-10 at 11:05 PM.

  3. #63
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    Hi Jake, welcome to this thread, pls add more whenever

    yes, a conclusion/listage / summary of recommendations will eventualise, this is a mad winding expedition of discovery here

    handheld offcuts mounted is exactly what Shosui Takeda supplies, using only a board to lay the knife on http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8U3...66819F&index=5 << Shosui-san himself on a Deba -- Takeda-Sensei!
    see he checks the tip + the heel sharp with paper-on-wood

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Aos...66819F&index=4 << some guy using his stone

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7mQq...66819F&index=6 << Takeda knife + tomato ..

    it gives the massive advantage of seeing what you just did, and what you need to do next, where

    once you have 'flat' restored, you can move on to biggerstone with confidence

    actually my current most favorite is that 'neclkstone' .. a massive misnomer but it does have cord hole http://picasaweb.google.com/etorix/N...eat=directlink

    King do a similar model, but irs not the same Green/Black #120/#220 [ish]

    can be used dry in the field, as my copy has been, judging by wear, see http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...er-s-whetstone

    actually its a farmer's sickle stone imho, with plastic Netsuke n all

    im not keen on King much, i have several lines of enquiry goin on ion Japan for the Green/Black tho

    added bonus: they gotta be CHEAP, great entry-level small stone

    i'll have a bunch if i spot any
    Last edited by etorix; 14-12-10 at 01:27 PM. Reason: they gotta be CHEAP, great entry-level stone
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  4. #64
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    and now for something completely different

    more of the SCIENCE bit http://www.straightrazorplace.com/fo...t-stone-2.html
    Last edited by etorix; 11-12-10 at 02:01 PM. Reason: No 1 .. The L a r c h
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  5. #65
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    Takeda videos added 2 posts up
    Last edited by etorix; 11-12-10 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Takeda videos
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  6. #66
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones



    shum mishtake, shirley
    Last edited by etorix; 12-12-10 at 07:35 PM. Reason: WHO LET THE DOGS IN
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  7. #67
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    savage edge on this puronvarsi, really bit me

    grind seems a bit sloppy, but i love his thinking,

    i might have to get another one of his after the wrong-snow-delivery-hiatus subsides

    and i just ordered a Shapton Glass #1000 in the UK from here might keep me happy for a bit
    Last edited by etorix; 13-12-10 at 03:20 PM. Reason: after the wrong-snow-delivery-hiatus subsides
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  8. #68
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  9. #69
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    How does a shapton 500 glass compare for speed and finish with DMT Black X or a 250 grit cheap stone?

  10. #70
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    dunno mate, i aint got either of those .. i have 2 coarse cheap diamond benchstones but only use for lapping the Faithfull .. which isnt big enough really but works ok so far

    Shapton Glass #500 is far less scratchy and more pleasant to use than the Shapton J Pro #120 which is my real metal-muncher and a quite nasty piece of work

    i use the Shapton J Pro #120 [sourced from ebay.jp] for gross flattening bevels on blades that need it, so my next one up is the 500 Glass, but its really finer, i think 320 might be better .. dunno yet except im not liking wearing out the 500 after the 120

    i should however have a Sigma Power #120 quite soon :: Sigma Power ceramic stone #120 [in the air as we speak via Kuroneko] from Stuart at http://www.toolsfromjapan.com

    that Shapton Glass #1000 in the UK turned out to have been sold unbeknownst to the guy i checked with by phone, i got my money back already even .. so my next grits up are king#800 + cerax combi 1000/6000

    i really like this Shapton Glass #500 stone, but i need a much larger lap-device soon, its bowing already a bit .. im currently using it to remove the last grinderbelt lines on a couple of 'nice' scandi ..

    i think it gives a good toothy edge,

    for just-edge-sharpening its fast and efficient, its a quickstart too, spray-and-go

    finish appears-mirror till u get up v close

    did i mention that i like it
    Last edited by etorix; 14-12-10 at 02:05 PM. Reason: its a quickstart
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  11. #71
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    http://www.turners-retreat.co.uk/aca...harpening.html << good list including several lapping stones and a metal plate

    superhone: http://www.wetshavingworld.com/forum...superhone-quot .. Sypderco UF + diamond sprays .. kinda the modern equivalent of 'Hard Stone - Many Nagura'

    NewAddedStones: yesterday i was given a smallish Norton combination stone, never oiled so good for water, needs lots of lapping,

    and i just bought this Chinese 12k: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Chinese-Wa...item1e5951dfaa 15 GBP delivered inc nagura
    It measures 150 mm x 50 mm x 17 mm in depth . It is very hard - almost like ceramic,
    Last edited by etorix; 16-12-10 at 02:38 PM.
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  12. #72
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    guess if I want to find out then I'll just have to buy one then

  13. #73
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    jhobson: i can definitely recommend that Shapton Glass, if you havent got any, the #500 is a good first one

    tho the Shapton Pro has the advantage of a second side, my only Pro is the #120, which i cant really commend .. this wont stop me buying higher grits tho

    my Sigma Power stones have landed in UK, but not delivered to me yet
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

  14. #74
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    Quote Originally Posted by etorix View Post
    and i just bought this Chinese 12k: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Chinese-Wa...item1e5951dfaa 15 GBP delivered inc nagura
    I have seen these and almost bought over the last couple of years. I will be very interested to hear how it compares. Do you have another stone in the 10-15K range to do a direct comparison. I would be interested to hear
    a) how fast it cuts compared to a comparable known stone
    b) how much feel or feedback it gives compared to a known stone and
    c) what the surface looks like under magnification compared to a known stone, ie how deep the groove pattern is and if it is really finer than say a 10,000 known brand

    They certainly look pretty and if they cut well at 15 they are a bargain, if they remove metal very slowly I am less interested.

  15. #75
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    Re: How to re-sharpen knife: japanese water stones

    Robin: they are real natural stone and i believe hard, so suitable for ManyNagura, possibly [i have a few JNat Naguras by now, and a couple more coming]

    some of the razor guys rate em for budget stone kit, thats how i found the ebay link .. 15 quid? gimme one

    as for 10-15K range, well my highest current unreals are the Naniwa SS, i have 3k/5k/8k .. what 10k is a well-known 'standard' stone?

    the Sigma Power unreal-fines aint landed on my doorstep yet,

    they are unknown quantity, since not generally available .. erm .. anywhere .. yet

    my Nakayama [real] is absurdly fine, 20-30k estimated

    xmas delivery is gonna delay me ordering up an Aoto ..
    in my dream i had a new knife .. so i put it under my pillow for when i awoke ..

 

 

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