A question of steel and coatings

[Martyn]

Dunno if this helps...
http://www.britishblades.com/steelstandards.htm

I know it doesnt directly answer your question - to that I have no idea. I would think EN45 should be the same no matter what size.

[Dave Budd]

It may do, I will have a look at the invoice sheet when I get home. Sadly I don't thinkit does though

I would think that any size of a given steel should be the same, but the breakdown gave very different analysis. Such as a range of 0.56 to 0.58 % C, and one or two elements that are listed on the larger sizes and not at all in the 1/2" !

[Martyn]

Possibly the problem may arise from EN numbers being defunct. It may be that some of your steel has been made to EN specification, while other bits have been made to the BS equivalent of EN45 (BS970: 250A53). I dont know if the newer BS steel is a direct comparison to EN45 or not, but EN (English) numbers are/have been replaced by British Standard numbers.

[The General]

Sounds right on the money to me Martyn.

[Dave Budd]

Can't they make their minds up?

You would think that the new materials would get a new name/number if they are different in composition?

Interesting though. wonder if it makes any practical difference?

[Pumbaa]

Hi , just thought i would add on here what steel i use currantly .
Basicly because i am new to blade making , I am using old car springs (was told this was a good idea whilst partaking in re-enactment ) It suits me at the momment because its cheap if not free . This enables me to practise the forgeing and shaping on inexpensive material . I guess what i am asking is , is this a usable material for blades ? or is this just another re-enactment myth ? I would be very intersted in any stories about testing blades of this material to destruction or any ideas on better "learnable" materials .
Cheers
Pumbaa

[Dave Budd]

yep, it's good stuff. most of the books list it as 5160 a medium carbon (.5-.6%) steel with a bit of chromium. particularly good for large blades, swords and rough use blades, but it wont hold the same fine edge as say O1.

I've used loads of springs and haven't had any problems with them. but if you find one thats been snapped, cracked or stessed and therefore has bent out of normal curvature, then chop it off well away from where you want it. The springs on some older vehicles and those given serious abuse do occasionally have flaws that don't show up until quenching or even use (if you stop a cracked blade with your shield the tip could carry on towards your face! ouch!!).

Make sure you anneal the spring before you forge it and you cant go wrong! Best of all, like you say, it's cheap!

[Danzo]

I found this over at www.newgraham.com

Useful?

Danzo

[andy-37]

could someone give me some info on the qualities of the fallkniven steels ie the laminated blades.

[Andy]

very good

it's a lamintae VG10 steel with 420J2 for the outer sections. It taes and holds a good edge. I've found better then 440C and 154cm, easy to sharpen as well
The laminated blades are a bit stronger then a solid lump of VG10, The laminate blade take 105kg os so before breaking and the old solid F1 blade tok about 82kg to make it snap. I'm not sure how they were tested though.
One thing to bear in mind is the angle the edge is at, it's rather large so doesn't slice that well but it doesn't chip either.

[Andy]

does anyone have any info on T1 as a knife steel

I've been told it's similar in make up to M2 but about 20% more dense which have some rather nice affects on performance

EDIT: or M4 for that matter. I'm guessing it's another high speed tool steel


It's been suggested that I make knives from M2 as it's easy to work with. He also suggested D2 for a good knife but thought T1 would be a better knife then M2

[Stuart Ackerman]

can't be 20 % denser, impossible.... t1 is high in tungsten, and I think cobolt... bulldozer blades etc, but is classed as high speed steel, sounds like a "better" M2, but I will investigate and return with hopefully more accurate info.

[shing]

I think Farid uses T1, I like M42 myself.

http://www.faridknives.com/steelsused.htm

[Naphtali]

Recently, I have changed my knives from hodgepodge of materials to Cowry X Damascus. My variation, and there are at least two, is Cowry X and high-carbon variation of 420 stainless steel as 128 layers.

Hattori-Japan is the maker of all Cowry X blades I mention. Pocket knives (1 user and 1 back-up) are A.G. Russell's K87CW. These were advertised as "one-hand" knives, but don't you believe it. The blade is flat grind caping shape slightly longer than three inches.

I am having Hattori build to my order fixed blade knives, but I use a KD30-2A now. This closely resembles Randall's Model 5. Mine is a 5.25-inch blade, nominally .197 inch thick, with convex grind.
***
In terms of corrosion resistance, Cowry X's chemistry shows it to be slightly more corrosion resistant than D-2. Chemically, it is NOT stainless. I do not protect the blades in any way. However, when I think about it, I will strop blades along my thigh. This -- I have no idea why this is so -- protects even O-1 blades from surface rust.

Hattori claims to deliver their branded blades with Rc range of 64-67 for the Cowry X layer. I have no way of verifying this hardness range on a layered blade.

The Cowry X Damascus blades Hattori manufactures for Fällkniven Knives is Cowry X layered with VG10, with claimed hardness about Rc 64. Since the cutting core is Cowry X for either variation, I doubt VG10's inclusion is anything more than product differentiation. I further doubt that Fällkniven's Cowry X layer is hardended/heat treate differently from Hattori branded blades.
***
Regarding abrasion resistance, my Hattori Cowry X blades have, perhaps, greater edge retention in normal use than O-1 at Rc 60-62, and slightly greater than D2 at Rc 59. Compared with vaccuum melted 154-CM steel at Rc 59-61, blades are substantially more abrasion resistant. In plain English, the blades are exceptionally abrasion resistant.

Regarding ductility at hardness, blades do not appear to be affected by moderate chopping -- that is, I detect no edge roll-over.

I am not in the habit of using any knife as a substitute for axe or machete. I cannot report ductility comparison among blade steels. I am unwilling to subject any blade to being bent in a vise to discover its ability to spring back to original shape.

I would expect any steel whose hardness is as high as Cowry X's to be brittle. I also expect layering it with ductile material to mitigate much of the deleterious effect of same.

Regarding ease of sharpening, THIS IS the place where I continue to be surprised.

- O-1, even at high hardness is relatively easy to sharpen. Its blade is flat grind.

- D2, also flat grind, is significantly more time consuming to sharpen. I use a Lansky fixture to make sure the edge is regular.

- 154-CM is a bitch. Its flat grind blade is far and away the most time consuming to sharpen, even with Lansky fixture.

- Hattori's Cowry X's flat grind and the convex grind blades are comparable in difficulty. They are slightly more time consuming to sharpen than O-1 at its hardness. Part of the reason for flat grind and convex grind Cowry X blades' similarity is that flat grind is .125-inch thick while fixed blade is almost .200-inch thick. The convex grind is not exactly "sharpened." A better description of what I do is "strop," as a barber might strop his straight razor before giving you a shave. Stropping is done on abrasive paper that is wrapped around a mouse pad. This is less expensive than obtaining a leather strop and easier to obtain than abrasive paste for leather.

The downside is that this procedure, not done carefully, degrades the Damascus effect. Of course, I found this out during my first stropping.

Damascus look can be restored, but I have the knives to use rather than to look at. So I just say to myself, "Tough luck, buddy," and move on.
*****
Summary:

I chose Cowry X Damscus blades because I expected them to be as efficient as the best blade material I had actually used, in three categories: abrasion resistance, ductility at hardness, and corrosion resistance. So far this has been substantially acccurate.

Ease of sharpening was not factored because I have NEVER sharpened a knife in the field. Sharpening at home presents no serious problem. Nevertheless, ease of sharpening has been a pleasant surprise.

I chose Hattori over Fällkniven branded knives for three reasons. Hattori knives are significantly less expensive to buy (Jemmy Iwahara can be reached here. "Kencrest" <jemmy@kencrest.us>). Hattori has wider selection of blades off-the-shelf. And Hatttori will make a knife to order.
***
Are Cowry X Damascus-bladed knives worth their price premium? Definitely NO. A top-of-the-line O-1 knife's only significant inferiority is in corrosion resistance. If all I wanted were "beaters," this is where I would buy.

Am I satisfied owning Cowry X Damascus-bladed knives? Definitely YES. I bought pride of ownership in tools that will last generations of users. And nobody else on the block owns any, so I have the "oooh, neat" factor wherever I go.

[Naphtali]

I completely overlooked a superb option that I maintain in my storage. While I have not checked the web site, RAGNAR'S NORWEGIAN KNIVES may still have circa 1960s Brusletto blades made for Morseth Knives in Washington state. I bought a bunch and put them away.

Strictly speaking, blades are not knives, but using a Morseth blade as basis for a general-purpose outdoorsman's knife is a solution superior to using O-1/D2/fill-in the blank blade of similar pattern.

- Blades are laminated, therefore exceptionally ductile.

- Core lamination's Rc 61-64 yields exceptional abrasion resistance for this non-stainless steel full tang blade.

- Size and shape of blade render it nearly perfect for outdoorsman's use. For a Scandinavian laminated blade it is thick, probably a nominal .187 inch that has been descaled to about .180 inch.

These blades need their bevel profiled. What Brusletto furnishes is bargain basement. I owned a Morseth knife circa 1972 whose shape WAS this blade. Morseth's saber grind begins the bevel much higher on the blade. The blade becomes a cutting tool rather than a hacking tool.

When I bought my blades, Ragnar was retailing them at under USD 30. As I write, there is nothing on the commercial market that compares with this Brusletto blade.

Brusletto, at the time the blades were manufactured, had a 200-piece minimum for special orders. Since shape and core lamination's hardness are significantly "special," I suspect Ragnar may have obtained as many as 400 pieces. But when they're gone, that's that.