The £60 layers challenge... clothes you never knew you needed.. or hated!

[MeetTheGeeks]

Pics available at the beginning of the thread for all garments, I'll keep adding to them..


MOD issue Bivvy Jacket

There first of all seems to be many clones of this at half the price. I would say that applies to most military kit from jackets to Basha’s. This one came from the MOD manufacturer directly and the cost is £60 inc shipping.
From what I understand this company is the parent company for Fortis range of ballistic wear and outlets to the public through its website at outdoorknitwear.com, clicking on thermal jackets and its main company is twkempton.co.uk.
Right, time to get down to basics. This jacket is available is a number of color options and its reversible. The outer shell on this one was olive and the inner color was a desert coyote color. The material feels thin but its sturdy so should take abrasion and wear rather well. A number of elasticated draw cords allow a better fit around the hem and collar to keep the wind out and the warmth in. The cuffs are a very basic elasticated cuff type that is functional but certainly not everyone’s cup of tea. I personally don’t like elastic cuffs, they do serve a function and work effectively. Sadly being black they seem to stand out on the lighter colors more and look a tad odd.

Looking at the rest of the jacket a bit closer there is two zip pockets on the side no matter which way round you are wearing the jacket. There is also a Velcro held storm flap covering the zip. No matter which way around you are wearing the jacket this seems to adhere and after a while becomes a little frustrating. Poppers may be better in my opinion. The Velcro constantly holding down on two sides of the garment when doing the jacket up or undoing became a tiresome problem. You get the outside of the jacket undone and the inside catches again. It’s a full pitched battle with Velcro and its noisy not to mention exceedingly frustrating and tiresome.

When the winds blowing cold and you need to warm up you put the jacket on and in a minute or two you start to feel the benefit. The inner layers are not meant to retain water so even in a down pour it should keep you warm. Once it warms up, it holds the heat superbly. If you take the jacket off for a minute or two and put it back on, the heat is still in the jacket. So adding or removing a lower layer won’t leave you cold again. The heat retention is rather impressive.

The field testing of the jacket has it rated effective down to -25 degrees. From past knowledge the ratings systems for garments and sleeping bags is variable. Some test for women only, some men only and it’s never clear which one is the test subject. As everyone is different it also is hard to effectively gauge which part of the scale you fit into. A sleeping bag rated to -10 might be tested on men only, tested on women the same bag is only rated to -5 in extreme conditions or even 0 degrees. My only advice would be test the item, no matter what it is before you take it to where you really need it. This is after all a guide of how it performs.

When the jacket is reversed you get exactly the same feel and look as it was the other way around. Once again the storm flap is present to stop the draught. In the cooler parts of the evening the jacket keeps the wind off, and warms up effectively giving you a good layer against the harshest of wind. Regulating temperature seemed to be the biggest problem I had. I use the zips to undo the jacket and allow my body to breathe and cool down. This storm flap continued to catch on the inside and outside making a simple zip up or down a real pain and rather noisy. An evening stalking would easily be ruined in a moment by adjustment of the zip or something on the ground catching that storm flap. In short, it became an irritating part of a garment that is effective.

The pack size on this one could be seen as some as a problem. I find that difficult to call either way. Yes its pack size without a compression sack is only slightly smaller than a 2 season sleeping bag. So why carry both? Well you can sleep in the jacket instead of a bag allowing you to just get up and move without packing anything away. For some this would be of benefit. Getting into a sleeping bag means taking layers off and then warming the bag up to get comfortable. If you are wearing the jacket and can sleep in it, it does have some merits. Limited agreeably, but it would work. Its niche may be targeted unless you are happy to carry both and out camping in all weathers.

So to try and work out if this is a good thing or a bad thing to have. In all honesty I don’t know, that flap did become a problem and impeded the effectiveness overall. The Velcro will wear and stop sticking in time and become less noisy but as most people like to hunt stalking this would spoil a good evening or early morning. Yes it will keep you warm after the sun goes down and it does mean you can cop a few ‘Z’s and carry less while out. But, it still comes back to that storm flap every time you need to adjust the temperature. For me, personally.. I find that it’s a great product; it works so well and in a compression sack it would be even better for pack size but that storm flap spoilt it for me. I honestly can’t get past that part of it and that is a shame for something that offers so much. It’s so basic but effective and would suit so many people. No frills, not complicated, highly effective… just tarnished by one slight flaw.

Ru also tried this jacket, please see post 11 for his view and comments..

[MeetTheGeeks]

A quick update folks!

Arriving soon is a Keela Belay Jacket and two others have already arrived!
More details on those later and another review later on.

[cave_dweller]

Interesting - I've been looking at the Keela Belay, but I've heard the sizes run small so I wanted to try one on before buying, and there's nowhere local. I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.

[MeetTheGeeks]

It should be here next week mate, Im really interested on the sizing too. They were sent out with the people from the UN who dealt with the tsunami in thailand. They wore base layers and these over the top and were comfortable all day. I'll be looking forward to it, if the size or cut is tight it would let it down. I'll keep you posted.

[MeetTheGeeks]

Ive updated my first post listing all the items on test once they arrive, and my second post to keep all the pics of each item together. This should make it easier for people to compare items. I hope this helps and makes it easier for people this way, if there is anything else that would help please let me know I'll try to cater for you.

[Mr Happymoose]

Is that Mil-Com smock the one in the link from The Bushcraft Store Ax??

[MeetTheGeeks]

It is indeed mate. Its the biggest they have, Ru tried it by putting the hood over his head and moving his arms inside to get it on, no luck for me that way. The cut is a bit tight, once on its not too bad. I dont mind milcom the quality is consistent, some people just dont like it. For £30, its worth the punt for most mate.

[Ru Titley]

Axle droped by yesterday so I got to have a ware of the 2 newest garments the 2nd blackhawk and the buscraft smock .
Its was a faily chily day and we had the door open to the clean workshop , Id been comfortable in My Lowe Alpine Aleutian hoddie that I use in the workshops so when it came time to try on the Blackhawk My core temp was comfortable .

zipping up the blackhawk , it felt light but kinda strange due to the odd fabric , there wasnt an instant warmth effect and again the odd construction of the small inside squares of fleece surrounded by daylight really dosnt inspire personal confidence in the jacket .
As Axle takes a size 3 XL this was never gonna pack down small and will be interested to hear how this fairs on the wilds of Dartmoor , it should keep out the wind , but how it fairs in the rain willl be interesting .

The lack of hood (a personal favorite of mine ) and the billowing open neck when fully zipped again didnt give me confidence and I can say that I didnt feel that much warmer with only a berhaus base layer on , I didnt feel any colder but not that much warmer . oh and surprisinly there was no draft excluder / at the base to pull tight against the body to help keepout further elements ..

I think these blackhawk garments are the ones that will require the most testing , they obviously work or they wouldnt be selling them but I personally favour the Berghaus moto of '' trust is earnt '' .
if I was asked to go to Norway tomorrow id really have to think about using these compared with my own tried/ tested kit .

the milcom bushcraft smock looked great in the pics online and for the price cant really be beat for a good all elements outdoor jacket .
The smock as a non full length zip has always been popular with adventures and explorers who based their kit on what the locals were wearing and which generally has proved to be a great design . The same design however may not work that well for say Military types , but then again some smocks are used by Northern Nordic based troops .

From pulling this on over my head , there was a quick warmth resopnse , even more so when the hood was in place and the short zip pulled up , it was toasty warm , again it was a 3XL and was vast for me but the weight of the materials inspired warmth , if your feel warm when your really cold thats got to be good for morale in a desperate situation .
theres a big joey pouch on the front that could swallow loads of kit and 2 handwarmer pockets on the sides but really there just pockets , if you want warm hands just pull them up into the sleaves .

ok its a big coat , its thick and quite heavy due to the class of the infill so pack size isnt great , another brand of coat with 700 fill down will be more than tripple the price but would be lighter and more packable
but its warm and cheap so that can be forgivern . Agin Ill be interested to hear how the DWR treatment works out on this as it seems to be welll worth the mony if weight and pack size arnt as important to You compared with warmth and cheapness.

looking forward to seing the Keela belay jacket too when it arrives .

[Gizmo]

Thats the one I ordered too, with some wash in TX it would be waterproof

What's "TX" please MTG?

[Ru Titley]

Nik Wax wash in and TX are a waterproofing system thats recomended for gore tex and other typoe fabrics , either via the washing machine or spray on .

[cave_dweller]

Until MTG pointed it out, I didn't realise the 'hoody' from The Bushcraft Store was a Mil-com (is that the same as Mil-tec?). If I'd known I probably wouldn't have bought it, based on reputation! Now I've got it though, I actually think it's a good piece of kit.

About the DWR coating - I'm still not sure what it is; I'm not even 100% sure it has one. I just stuck it under a running tap and the water ran straight off, so I figured it must have some kind of treatment. After a few washes we'll see how it lasts, but I think TX direct or 'Soft Shell proof' would probably make it pretty water resistant.

I agree with Ru about the pack size/warmth ratio - I think the Keela belay will be warmer and pack smaller, since it's filled with primaloft.

[Nice65]

I've got the Keela Belay and the Bushcraft Store offering. The Keela packs into a 1ltr drybag. There's no way the smock will do that.

The Keela gets used as an underlayer for my Ventile, the smock is something I bung on to go to the pub etc. Very different garments.

[Gizmo]

Nik Wax wash in and TX are a waterproofing system thats recomended for gore tex and other typoe fabrics , either via the washing machine or spray on .

Thanks! I actually have some but clearly forgot why I bought it!

[MeetTheGeeks]

Sorry for delays folks internet issues the last ten days...

Heres an update...

Blackhawk Grid fleece

Its difficult to try and describe the grid layout on this fleece when you look at the inside of it. To be fair it could be a map of any American city from New York to Brooklyn. The ‘city blocks’ cover the entire main body of the fleece and when you hold that up to the sunlight you can see through around the ‘road’ parts. The first feel of the jacket had a very rigid and unforgiving nature to it. The whole garment on felt like it was starched or something similar. After now wearing it for some time its softened and has more give and flex in it. I would assume its part of the manufacturing process and only temporary.

Its been quite cool in the evenings here and throughout the day, then the heavens opened up to a hail storm lasting a good few hours. A good testing for the jacket me thinks! I went and stood in the blowing wind and hail for ten minutes. The fleece did get wet, well its not DWR treated so it was bound to do that but the wind didn’t penetrate the fleece itself. My skin warmed the fibres of the fleece up, and although I was aware of a cold barrier on the outside, I was still warm and could not feel the wind on me. Its hard to describe in words, you are aware of the coldness beyond the reaches of the micro fleece but you kind of have a micro climate going on around you. Certainly without the fleece my arms had raised goosebumps as the temperature change was quite noticeable, to the point that after 5 minutes I actually started to shiver in my larger muscles. With the fleece on I didn’t shiver, I was comfortable but I cant describe if it was warm or not. This micro climate feeling is the only way, you are aware that its cold out, but not where the clothing is in contact with your skin. The wind does not penetrate the fleece layer but you would not wear this on a winters day with snow, it would be lunacy. If worn under a shell jacket as an additional layer for warmth, yes. Even around a camp fire in the evenings you would be fine, or the autumnal and spring days and evenings, but certainly not for winter without building the layers up in addition. So for me its a ground point over a baselayer or more suited to a couple of seasons in the later part of the evening and morning.

This also raises the question of use under high activity. This gets really interesting, its not constructed in the usual way, you have panels in key areas to offer and give support, even allowing the garment to breath. This is highly noticeable under the arm pit area a point where manly men sweat a lot. This unusual method of construction means when you lift both arms the jacket does not ride up. Most garments when you stretch both arms up ride up from the waist, this sits exactly where you left it. The give in these panels, and the breathability make it a good layer to keep the wind out while you climb or exercise. I cut up some wood with it on and my under arms didn’t smell like a house of ill repute. It worked well with a base layer to keep me cool and vent any moisture. I was actually quite taken back by it, it performed really well and all manner of movement kept it tight on the waist and didn’t let a draught in by the posterior.

The construction quality of this is excellent, the panels meet and are folded and sewn flat something that blackhawk advertise a lot on the various tags that come with this. Flat Seam Construction. In short, if you wear a rucksack over this while you are out it wont rub your shoulders, Bergan Burn is a horrible painful thing where your skin is so rubbed raw it weeps. Trust me on the pain factor its raw layers of exposed under skin. The flat seams all mean it wont dig into you, it wont abrade your flesh.
Layering up is simple with this. Thumb loops in the front part of the sleeve means if you need to add layers you tuck your thumbs into the loops and add more layers over the top. No more digging around up sleeves to sort out where one garment has dragged the other up your arm. I like this, its not a complicated solution and it works. There are additional loops on the lower part of the sleeves to add this fleece into some of the other Blackhawk range of clothing. Ive not tried this myself, but if anything else arrives that allows them to be combined I’ll report back on how that works.

The overall feel of this one was one of quality. The side of the fleece against your skin did its job well, the side facing outwards was smooth and would not look out of place at informal occasions. I guess its designed to be tactical in some ways, but it does not come across as a tactical garment, more of a smart/casual item. The panels that allow movement are a great idea, and going back to the drawing board and ignoring regular patterns for garment making really show some thought and attention to detail. That coupled with the flat seam construction, the thumb loops, the additional tie loops for building up layers together, the warmth factor and generous cut and fit all bring this together as a package. To be honest, if I had seen it in a shop I would ignore it for £60. After trying it and wearing it, I would be hard pressed to want to give it up. Its certainly not designed for an outer layer in bad weather but if you know that and accept it, then its a great foundation to build upon.
This is more in tune with you for activity or an evening deer stalking. The YKK vision zips and the little tab to pull them are a great attention to quality and detail. It does do up in reverse of regular UK mens garments with the tab on the left and the zip on the right but its no big issue.
Now would I recommend them? Well. Yes, if you normally run warm bodied and need it more in the evenings then its perfect. If you know you want to build layers then yes get one. It packs down small and will always be at hand in a rucksack or the car but I cant quite put my finger on why not everyone would benefit from it, but those of a colder feel to the body may not find it enough without a shell over the top. But if you are in the market for an adaptive layer that works then get one. At least try one on and give it a minute to warm while you stretch and move about and the penny will drop for you. It sits just right.

[MeetTheGeeks]

MilTec smock

I don’t normally look at smocks if Im honest, its not something I find suits me. I remember the old school style cagoule you used to be made to wear as a child. Normally bright orange and no matter what the weather you always looked miserable in them. Putting those aside, its time to look at the this version. Mil-Tec is a German company who makes for the lower to mid end market. Better than Webtex if you know that as a comparison.

The first thing you notice is that the smock is very full, its got a very lofted look and feel to it. When you compress it down and allow it to fluff back up it does so steadily. Its what I would expect from a sleeping bag or similar. The outer material is DWR rated and it feels and looks nice. The weave is uniform and tight. The body as mentioned is very plush and full with a slightly fluffy/fleece feel to its inside.

To get this on you put it over your head and thats kind of easy. I say kind of easy simply as being well built shows the downfall of this style of jacket. For me to get it on I had to get it onto my arms, well above my head and allow it to drop down. When Ru tried it on he simply put it on over his head and moved his arms inside to locate the sleeves and slide his arms in. For me, that way does not work as there is not enough room to move in that method. If the jacket is one size larger it would be fine, but for me, it doesn’t offer that spare room. Im not saying thats a bad thing, but it was not easy. To remove the jacket Ru was fine reversing the process, for me it had to come off sliding up my arms pulling it over my head. This meant my Tshirt pulled up with it and then you get a draught. A bit frustrating, but smocks it seems, only work for certain sizes effectively allowing you the room to move within it.

That aside, lets get to grips with some of the other features. The marsupial pocket. That’s the big one across the front. Not having the full zip down the front meant that you can have a large pocket, this makes me have mixed feelings. Carrying some light snacks, gloves or a map in the pocket would be fine, anything much bulkier and it would bounce against you and drive you barmy. There are two lower pockets as hand warmers or for carrying anything you need. They are placed in such a way that allows you to take the weight off your arms when your hands are in them, allowing you to relax. I like that, it felt right and natural. Some jackets don’t have that but it was a nice feature. It should be noted though that what ever you have in the pockets is going to bounce off your head when you take the jacket off. A GPS or multitool is not the best thing to have in these pockets at that time.

With the wind blowing and a light rain you are safely cocooned inside and the added hood and partial zip allow you to cover a large portion of your face. The unwired peak on the hood offers protection from rain on anyone wearing glasses and those who don’t. Having rain running down your face is not the nicest feeling in the world. I personally would have preferred a wired hood, but every ones personal choices are different. I did find that the first time I zipped myself in I trapped my beard. I was swearing like a squaddie on a night with the lads almost temping to cut myself free from the jacket. The smock sits so snugly too you, care is required zipping up. I did manage to take the tension off my beard and allow the zip to slide down freeing myself, but it not something that has ever happened with a regular jacket.

You notice the jacket warming when its on, it slowly and steadily warms by your exothermic reaction! In short, you give off heat, the jacket absorbs it warming it up and then reflecting it back. That loss factor is minimal. When you take the jacket off for a few minutes you notice a temperature change and when you put it back on within 5-10 minutes the smock retains that heat. The combination of shell outer, warming fluffy insulation and fleece lining combine to keep you warm. The sacrifice? Well heat wise in reality none its more efficient. The lack of full zip means you cant unzip and allow the cold air in or radiate your stored heat away. You don’t need a baffle to keep draughts out and any heat you give off goes right into the jacket surrounding you, the loss factor over a regular jacket is very different indeed. There simply is nowhere for heat to escape you’re wearing a radiator.
The sacrifice of this is the method to put it on or off, and if you stretch or reach up, the whole jacket moves upwards allowing cold air in against you. There is a trade off of smocks over regular jackets, and some of this just comes down to personal preference but I do see there are some benefits with them. The water repellency is great for showers but not enduring heavy rain. Its not designed too either. Its warm, its wind proof and its nice when you are just sitting down or moving without too much effort.

Im torn on what to conclude about this particular one. It works yes, there is no denying that. But it does have a few drawbacks which affect body temperature overall, but warms up quicker over a regular full zip jacket. I wouldn’t like to chop wood in it as it moves so much. The noise factor is not too bad, it does make some noise against itself but not too much of a problem. I like the smock, there is no denying that and for sitting around a camp fire in the evening or something in the later parts of the day cooking or a nice walk through woodland it performs brilliantly. I think the upper limits of its size certainly for me and the activity I do I’ll personally stick to a normal full zip.
For hard use I don’t have the confidence in it, but thats the style not this version of it. There is without doubt a place for over the head smocks, and they should not be avoided by any means, depending on what you want to do as to if it has a place with you at that time. A compression sack would help its pack size but stuffing it in a rucksack means it fills all the gaps or nooks and crannies. If you have never tried one, or only have bad memories of cagoules, its time to see what the modern materials and fabrics can do. They certainly should have a place in your kit bag.