Bayley S4 passaround reviews

[Karlo]

Some points to note about this Knife, yes it was designed around Bears requirements for a survival knife and he has military experience. Rob also prefers to keep things minimal and of the best of materials, so that the knife will not fail, hence RWL34 and G10. I cant see him bringing out anything over fancy, with say Mammoth Ivory handles and mother of pearl bolsters! Which also raises another point which should be considered, in my opinion he isn't a custom knifemaker, but a handmade knifemaker. There is a big difference, Robs S4 is proven all over the world and thats the knife people want. Certainly his order book and waiting list prove it, why would he want to make a custom knife for someone which would in effect be a prototype! subject to ongoing improvements. There are some other misconceptions about the sheath, if you own a right handed sheath for positioning at your back, it then works as a left handed crossdraw, so positioned over your right hip. If you wanted a right handed cross draw over your left hip, you would order a left handed sheath, so when you inserted or, removed the blade the edge was pointing downwardsti.
For me a knife first has to be practical and then if its pretty happy days. Check out some of Robs original Bear Signature knives and S4's with DI handles and Damasteel Blades, they sure as hell do it for me.

[JonathanD]

Rob is always making custom one of a kind knives for customers. He does it all the time. He has made quite a few members on here, knives to their own specification. Click my signature pic to see mine. He also uses exotic materials and other steels. So he is a custom maker in every sense of the word.

[Bluebs4]

A typical engineer ,function first but a great feel and look . Iv big hands and it's one of my smallest knives but feels great as a off the shelf design =a great engineer and knife maker
Ps, not involved in pass round just my five bobs ...but great review guys .

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

[Karlo]

Hi JonathanD I did look at your knife with the hump on the top, but in my opinion it is his proven knife, with a hump on top added, a customised version for you. I dont recall seeing any other steel than RWL34 or, Damasteel. Im also sure that in his early days as he was establishing his name he has made custom knives for people. I also know that some of my damasteel knives are classed as Custom knives, because they are a twist on the norm such as Desert Ironwood or, a slightly different profiled handle. What Im building a picture to say is that he makes his knives by hand and takes sole authorship for the knife and sheath, to his designs. I dont think for a minute he would start taking orders for knives pretty much from anyone for say a Bowie, or a loveless drop point or, their own design, etc etc. Money talks though and it may happen in the future, But I dont even recall seeing any of his designs with say a hollow grind or, flat grind.

In summary I disagree with you, I do not think that he is a "custom knifemaker in every sense of the word" he will customise his models but there is a very big difference, between that and pandering to a customers every whim and making a prototype which is basically what a true custom knife to a new design is. I would certainly like to see any new or, old models which prove me wrong though. It probably needs a thread of its own. What defines a custom knife maker!

Finally, I note that Rob has a new website up and running, he states that his knives are hand made by Robert Bayley, with no reference to being a custom knifemaker! Interesting

[Stew]

I think it's a label that doesn't need worrying about, personally.

He sometimes makes knives to customers requests. Just because he doesn't choose to take on any and every sort of design doesn't mean he's not a custom knifemaker. He's just a choosy custom knifemaker.

[JonathanD]

Rob makes knives and parangs to any customer specification. He doesn't just base them on his knife designs and most popular models. I don't understand how you can't view that as a custom knife. He may also customise his knife designs to a specific request by his clients, but then that is still a custom design. The clue is in the word customisation. The only reason you don't see that many is because the majority of his client base for custom knives don't post them up or even belong to forums. Rob has worked in many steels and exotic materials using tritium vials and mammoth tusk for example. If you look at a few threads on here, you'll find quite a few designs that differ from his well known models. My knife made by him was a customisation from his original Compact Raven. It is very different to the original Compact Raven than just having a hump added. Rob had to re-design the whole knife so my specifications (not just a hump I wanted lumped on) worked with his design. He made at least six original drawings before we settled on one that worked, and even then it was a customisation from one of the closest drawings that worked. If that isn't customisation, I don't know what is.

If you aren't convinced by that, then you could accuse Alan Wood or any other maker of not being custom knife makers, as they too have knives that are well known and popular catalogue models they make in their droves. But then maybe I need to look in the dictionary and read what 'custom' means these days.

[Karlo]

Sorry JonathanD, you have offered no evidence of other steels and mammoth tusk, that was some BS by someone saying he wanted one in that material I very much doubt he ever got. I say BS because on a survival knife come on! Parangs as I said very early days (rope cutter) I have tried to define the difference between custom and customization which you haven't understood clearly. I also mentioned your RAvenwith a hump on the top which is exactly what it is, probably to the mm. Now you mention Alan wood who I consider the best Custom Knifemaker in the Uk, by the way, you took his design probably his Expidition model and customized it slightly with a bigger rounder handle, then got SM to make it for you and call it the Deval Bushcrafter, my opinion complete BS you haven't designed a custom knife, you've customized an existing design. Oh by the way you have a history of getting your facts wrong, I recall You stating that AW used a particular steel, whereby he himself posted that he didn't.
Finally, I'm sorry if my tone offends anyone on this friendly forum, which it is, but we need more constructive arguments on here!
Over to you JonathanD please find evidence to dispute my previous points then I welcome you to dispute my latest ones! It should be fun if you go to as much detail as your knife tests! Which I enjoy reading by the way.

[JonathanD]

Strange post Karlo.

Why should I offer any evidence of Robs work that you haven't seen. The Tritium one is on this site!! If you want more information on what Rob can offer you in the custom knife department, I suggest you may want to ask him directly. You will obviously be pleasantly surprised by his reply.

This is a review thread that has nothing to do with me or my knife design and you are going off on a tangent, so not to increase the degree of that tangent, I'll only offer up honest facts within my own remit to your curious accusations.

You obviously have another Deval/Raven Rob Bayley made for you as you obviously know more about that knife than Emma, myself and Rob do, which is odd as Emm's and my knife are the only two ever made, and I was involved in many a discussion with Rob directly over a few months as to the design (all logged in a post here and on BcUK if you want evidence). As you seem to know all about these discussions and knives, which differ from my own experience on commissionsing them.... I'm obviously wrong and I obviously am talking BS. I should pay more attention to the knives I commission off someone, who as you suggest 'is not a custom knife maker'. My bad. I've been conned. Quite a serious accusation.

As for my taking my design for the Deval bushy directly from Alans Expedition. You are dead wrong. Dead dead wrong. I never knew of that knife prior to my submitting my original design to Alan. It was actually taken from the Woodlore blade profile (with my own mods), with a lot of details from Alan's custom Bushcrafter he made specifically for me, and the robust nature of the Tamarack thrown into the mix. The main rough overall shape came from a Spyderco model though. I gave the original design based on an amalgamation of the best features of these knives and a few extra personal modification of mine to Alan Wood himself and he modified that particular design I submitted to him slightly by moving the thumb ramb forward a touch and added a few other details to the handle he thought may work for my hand. That was the early start of of the knife design to what we see today. Alan made two prototypes. One with a curve in the overall design, and one that was dead straight, like the Woodlore. Both requested by me and only me. The curved one was almost right but needed the blade tip moved two mm up above the centre line, the grind lines moving higher, and the belly of the blade being completely moved towards the balance point. The handle didn't work as well as hoped and needed added swell to a couple of areas, as well as a few mm shaved off the lower palm base and a more tightened waist and flared butt.





Communication with Alan was by Royal Mail back then, so was difficult and slow. His turnaround time was also unrealistic if the knife was to get any further to my liking quickly. That was where Stuart Mitchell came in. He was quicker and communicated continually throughout the redesign by email. He made two prototypes with the modifications requested in all areas. That was five years ago and teh design changed quite considerably from those two original prototypes I commissioned off Alan. The design has been modified slightly further since then, both in blade profile, edge geometry and handle ergonomics. So in short, it is 100% my design, which was very early on based on the features I liked best in the Ray Mears/Alan Wood Woodlore design, a custom Alan Wood bushcraft commissioned by me, the Alan Wood Tamarack and one production model by Spyderco. These best features I found appealing, I put together into one final drawing and sent to Alan. I since then ironed out the details into one final and unique knife that fits my, and only my needs 100%

As the knife was originally made by Alan, who drew off his experience of knife design, it bore many signatures of his. But was never a design taken from the Expedition and apart from the thumb ramp, has no similarities in blade shape, geometry, size, symmetry or handle shape at all. Alans prototype from my design was then again modified by myself, then Stuart Mitchell and myself, and then by Stu and me again over the last five/six years. Alan had a huge part in the design, but it is unique and would not be as it is now if it wasn't for the collaboration of myself, Alan Wood and then Stuart Mitchell. And there is no other knife, either custom or production that is closely like it, in shape, size, geometry, ergonomics or design. Spyderco folders come some way close in profile overall as I drew heavily off my favourite design there. As it is, the knife as it is made today, is different from the early AW prototypes anyway.

If you want further proof of this, then contact Alan and Stuart Mitchell yourself. I have all documents, both typed, written and email to back up every step of this knifes histrory. If you want me to post up the exact dimensions of my knife to prove it, then think again. I gave Stu the dims o the final design and him only, Alan may also have the very early originals. Both can verify that the mods I asked for were all mine, and mine alone. Of course I drew off existing knives I've owned. How was I supposed to make a knife to my 100% liking without knowing what I liked in a knife. That is how all knives are designed. At the end of the day, it is a custom knife made for me. And as such is as custom and as original as a knife design can get in this day and age. Why are you so upset about it?

If you can show me a knife that is the same as mine, made before mine, then go for it. I'll send £50 to a Mod or independant unbiased individual and you can claim it if the dimensions match up to the Deval Bushy with significant dimensional accuracy. Now that's a bold claim on my part seeing as pretty much every knife design is a copy of another knife in one way or another over the last 200 years or so. And bushcraft knife design has the most varients. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. You don't have to match my bet to win that £50, and I'm sure you won't anyway, because you can't.

Oh, and I apologise for getting that one question wrong about a steel used by AW. I'm obviously a BS'er based upon that gross travesty of getting one question wrong. But I do stand by my £50 offer. And offer you to list any similarity in my knife and Alan Wood's Expedition apart from the thumb ramp.

[JonathanD]

Here is the AW Expedition...



Here is mine...



Now, not counting the thumb ramp. Can you list anything that is the same, either on the blade or anywhere else. Not to mention the dimensions. The Exped is a lot longer and slimmer too. They both have blades and handles. That's about it. Mine is closer to a Mora than it is to Alan Woods Expedition, or any other model of his.

To start, I'll list the differences....


The length of the blade.
The length of the handle.
The height of the blade.
The height of the handle.
The angle of the thumb ramp.
The length of the thumb ramp.
The shape of the blade.
The shape of the handle.
The angle of the butt.
The width of the butt.
The height of the butt.
The width of the butt
The shape of the butt.
The height of the palm swell.
The length of the palm swell.
the width of the palm swell.
The overall shape and ergonomics of the whole handle.
The overall angle of the handle to the blade.
The overall curvature of the knife.
The shape of the blade.
The angle of the blade.
The belly of the blade.
Than angle of blade to handle.
The overall blade shape.
Line of point to handle
Line o point to but.
Lower blade point.
Different guard profile.
Different choil profile.
Different grind lines.
Different grinds.
Different pin placement.
Lack of sharp handle angles.

In short. Let's face it. The whole knife is different. And not just slightly either. Vastly, and in all aspects.

[bigkev]

Just a small point(no pun intended) but the snakewood handle one is a hybrid of two of Alan's knives, not just an expedition...


And I have to say that one of yours is stunning ... Giraffe bone???

[JonathanD]

Cheers Kev. Here's a pure Alan Wood Exped....



And mine....



Still the same results though. In fact, even moreso.

[JonathanD]

.....And I have to say that one of yours is stunning ... Giraffe bone???

Yeah, giraffe bone. It's bamboo finish with impregnated green resin in the cracks. The liners are a matching green too.

[Stuart Mitchell]

Yeah, giraffe bone. It's bamboo finish with impregnated green resin in the cracks. The liners are a matching green too.

I wouldn't mind a brief loan of that mate, I have a client who is set on Sambar, there's no way though on their job, I'd like them to see a few Giraffe as viable alternatives...

If required I'll let you know and you could, if OK, send direct...

[JonathanD]

You mean the knife? You know where that is right? You should do, Mekele sings to it and it is permanently there.

You need to make the next one quick, as I ain't turning back at this juncture to get the other

If you mean some slabs, I have a spare set of the giraffe bamboo.

[Karlo]

Hi JonathanD, thank you for your response,as i expected it is in vast detail about your knife. But the main thrust of my argument about steel types, different grinds and custom designs you have simply brushed under the carpet and simply not provided any evidence to the contrary, which is exactly as I thought would happen. Again thank you for listing everything about the design of your knife and may I say very nice it is. But honestly the more that I look at it the more that it looks like a customised version of Alan's design. However if it makes you happy to protest otherwise so be it.
I'm going for a beer in the hottub, one day maybe I can buy you a beer and we can discuss further.
Cheers Karl