Teach me about the most suitable power hammer

[grommit]

Hello guys,
My head is frazzled with looking and trying to research on power hammers.
Now a lot are gonna say depends on how much I'm gonna use it and what work.
My answer is I don't want a flimsy small one but one that is gonna tackle a lot of pattern welding and other forging applications.
Money and collection is not an issue so I hope to irradicate any questions on what I'm willing to pay.

In short I'm hoping to short list at least 3 makes and models.
There's always pro's and cons on everything, but hopefully you experts that use them can say "the xxx model I use is the best I've had because......"
I've asked Owen on his views and other experts who I know or think has them in their workshops.
Of course there's the availability of a power hammer at the time of looking.
Sorry for being a pest to you all.
Brian

[Greenbeast]

As for availability, John can always sort you out with a new one :-) I guess you realise that.
They seem awkward to find second hand, they crop up on ebay every few months. But sometimes they are an unknown quantity unless you can view and know what you are looking for, which I certainly don't.

[Iron Hoarder]

Just have JohnN get you a nice old one and rebuild it. A nice 3cwt should do you well.

[grommit]

Blumming heck!
That was quick replies.
Thanks so much guys.
I've jus done another look around and found this beauty.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...forging-hammer.

Getting one at the right price isn't the problem or finding where to use it...it's getting time off work to get time to play.
Roll on next year good old retirement....but no signs of slowing down after 25 years running around the world like a teenager.i just can't loose the camaflauge lol. Stalking, game shooting is the life combined with playing with hot metal and knives what more can I ask for Iron hoarder you know the score on that one
Anyway guys al go and dream a bit more cant wait for a reply off Dave.
So John can help me out....can't wait.
Later guys,
Bri

[Greenbeast]

I'm hoping to try that hammer of dave's this week

[grommit]

Arggghhhhh! Mate
I'm full on jealous
I'm hoping to visit Matt soon, can't wait he is a very helpful n down to earth bloke wanting to help out.
Can't wait to see what you think of his beast.
I've emailed him on prices etc. but my prob is if I buy a one to assemble it'll remain in pieces as I'm not good at that even though I can strip a tank or any mil vehicle and put it together again with maybe one washer spare
Catchy a soon m8
Bri

[owen bush]

the reality of owning a power hammer are based upon a couple of things .

1 what is the best hammer for you
2 availability, If you are in a hurry this is the big limiting factor.

Power hammers come in many different sizes shapes and configurations .

Based upon my experience of owning 7 hammers and using many, many different kinds. If I were to simplify it I would split hammers in to two groups mechanical and air and those into large and small......

lets look at size first

power hammers come in the rough ranges of 25 lb to 300+ lb (and up into the industrial forging world)

Generally hammers smaller than 150lb are one piece hammers and bigger two piece hammers (there are exceptions) . There are serious advantages to a one piece hammer, that is one with a built in anvil.
Their is a blacksmiths saying that 2 piece hammers have 2 previous owners before they are installed by the third (both the two piece hammers I have were bought from people who never got round to installing them). I am probably passing on my bigger hammer.........having just recorded the time monies and effort that went into the smaller one (between £2000 and £5000 instillation. depending upon how I price my time.). you are looking at crane hire and expensive concrete work for big hammers. They also cost a lot to ship.
The advantages of the bigger 2 piece hammers are in power, there is generally more anvil mass in them and they are industrial tools. They will do work a smaller hammer does not do and quicken up work a smaller hammer can do.
Smaller hammers can also do a lot of work . I have done the majority of my damascus making on a 60 lb mechanical. The faster blow rates of smaller hammers will also make the working of smaller section quicker under the hammer than a bigger slower hammer.

I have made damascus on a 25lb little giant and patternwelded a complete multy bar sword on one of Johns 15kg Anyangs both did a fine job just not as fast as I am used to.

I have used masseys and Nazel that were able to do quite fine forging on a 300lb hammer. But generally there will be an accepted smallest section that can be forged under a hammer without squishing the material in an uncontrolled manner (and trashing it). I can forge tapers down to 3mm or less on the 60lb but probably only 12mm or so on the 225lb, you are then looking to hand hammer to finish.

Tooling is a very important part of having a power hammer I spent a decade ignorant of pretty much anything other than flat or drawing dies. I would recommend the good informational videos by Clifton Ralph on the subject.

I have not Gon into the mechanical versus air question yet...
Some people are very biased to one or another. I am not, they are both different.
The advantages of mechanical hammers are, cost as they are often cheaper. They are more efficient as in they can be run on smaller motors. The general rule is 5hp per 100weight but small mechanicals will often run on a lot less than that. Mechanicals are more fixable by a general metalworker and are easier to understand normally running a flywheel and clutch as opposed to air valving.
My 60 lb goliath (mechanical) will give lighter blows than any other hammer I have used ...however, as the blow gets lighter the blows slow down.
Most mechanicals are old , they can be worn and can have "personality" (same can be said for old air hammers) personality in a hammer is not good.
A good mechanical hammer can be a wonderfull thing, a bad one a dog that can Bite. there is often unprotected moving parts on old hammers and springs that could (and do) break to guard.
Makes of mechanicals in the uk are Samual Platt ,who make a 60 and 150 lb hammer. Blacker (I think about 50lb?) who make a couple of parallel helve hammers one that traverses in a groovy heath robinson kind of a way. Pilkington and Sheffield who make cutlers power hammers which are fast metal munchers and Massey who make similar . there are many many more makes of hammer from the USA and Europe as well.

Air hammers come in many different sizes and makes .
Most of the available UK ones are self contained as in they have a drive piston then control valving and a slave piston as a ram. there are US available utility hammers that are run from compressed air (some look pretty good).
The main advantage of an air hammer over a well set up mechanical is that you can vary the height of work and tooling under them easily. Most mechanicals will have a limited thickness and are very inefficient above that (or jam up). The other advantage with most air hammers is that as the blow power varies the blow bpm does not so you can give fast light blows which is very useful for finishing work.
In the Uk the available air hammers (new) are the anyang (chinese)range which a lot of people like 15gh through 75gh (probably bigger too) John N is the Uk dealer with lots of happy customers). Sahinla's (turkish) in 40kg 50kg and 75kg which I have used good and bad ones (a matter of oil maintenance) no idea who selld them new now. The German Kuhn and reiter hammers come up second hand (rarely in the UK) both are good. then there are the old english air hammers ......massey hammers from 50 lb to really really big, alldays or pilkington in the same range there are many many similar european hammers Beche,champion a load of german and french ones and russian etc.
Massey are held as the best Uk (or world hammers) I have used amazing masseys and some of the scariest kit I have used are badly set up masseys.....The alldays and onion hammer I have is good but not as good as a well set up massey or Nazel probably as powerfull but certainly not as gentle.

There is a 3rd wave of home built hammers . I will defiantly build my own hammer at some time but many of the ones I see scare me and I am certain that they will not perform as long and hard as the industrial mechanicals of the past and present. unless you have a want to make a hammer yourself I would dismiss them outright as a poor second to a commercial hammer.

If money was no option I would have a Beche or Nazel hammer as they are the sweetest I have used A 2b or 3B. you say money is no problem one of these hammers could cost $10000 to $15000 (and weigh in excess of15000lb) and a couple of grand shipping and £3000 to£5000 instilation (or more).

a good chambersberg utility hammer with a big compressor is a dream.....

next would be a good massey 2hundred weight.

I am striking up a great relationship with my225lb Alldays and Onion hammer (based upon respect) I love it. I still use my goliath 60 everyday....

I constantly look out for other hammers I love them. I would like some more mechanicals (to play with) and a 100 air hammer which is really about perfect for most of the real work I do.

Back in the real world I do not think you would go wrong with one of Johns hammers as big as you can afford........or look out and see what comes up in second hand hammers join BABA look at EBAY constantly keep your eyes peeled and ear to the floor.....

All the best owen

[owen bush]

I would add that any power hammer is infinitely better than none, they are life changers second to none when it comes to forging, well unless you want to talk about presses.......

[Greenbeast]

great post above Owen, very useful!

i've enjoyed will's anyang 40 this week, and will probably look for the 25 or 40 when i can scrape some money together

[grommit]

I would add that any power hammer is infinitely better than none, they are life changers second to none when it comes to forging, well unless you want to talk about presses.......

Owen,
You are a legend mate!
thanks for the great reply.
The advice has been tops to get my tiny Geordie head into shape.
the short list of your hammers you have had/use is a good starting point for me to do some more research.

I am definately going for mechanical, as you said due to its advantages with cost etc.

I have started talks on buying a 25lb mechanical hammer, so that is getting me smiling, a time frame to suite me and the maker.
I do not like to rush in and get something with out trying it first, so that option is on the cards.
it'll be as late as summer next year by the time i will be playing,as i wish to learn, do a course or two and really become proficient.

if the last 25 years doing what i do has taught me, is not to rush into anything until i research and learn as much as i can.
Thanks for the info on Anvil size etc. something i didn't really take into consideration, as you can imagine i just thought about the hammer size etc

Time to weather the horrible weather and get my daughter out and about to keep her entertained.
Thanks again for the advice, means a lot to me.
All the best
Brian

[Mick Maxen]

Grommit,

Owen probably has the most experience on here of using/owning different hammers from small mechanical to large air hammers like the Nazel 3b we were using at Ric Furrers place in the US, see link.
He himself states that a 1cwt air hammer is really about perfect for most of what he does.

I have only had a 1cwt air hammer so my opinion is biased, as I would always choose air over mechanical. Something else that has biased my opinion is I saw a mechanical Little Giant 50lb throw its pins and springs about in a workshop in the US, many years ago. It took about half an hour to find all the bits.

A 25lb hammer is a bit tippy tappy and you will soon be longing for a bigger set up. Get a 1cwt hammer, you know it makes sence.
As you have time on your hands before getting a hammer, you mentioned next summer. Go and visit as many people as possible and try their hammers out.

Nazel 3b link, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEgpP...ayer_embedded#!

Mick.

[grommit]

Grommit,

Owen probably has the most experience on here of using/owning different hammers from small mechanical to large air hammers like the Nazel 3b we were using at Ric Furrers place in the US, see link.
He himself states that a 1cwt air hammer is really about perfect for most of what he does.

I have only had a 1cwt air hammer so my opinion is biased, as I would always choose air over mechanical. Something else that has biased my opinion is I saw a mechanical Little Giant 50lb throw its pins and springs about in a workshop in the US, many years ago. It took about half an hour to find all the bits.

A 25lb hammer is a bit tippy tappy and you will soon be longing for a bigger set up. Get a 1cwt hammer, you know it makes sence.
As you have time on your hands before getting a hammer, you mentioned next summer. Go and visit as many people as possible and try their hammers out.

Nazel 3b link, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEgpP...ayer_embedded#!

Mick.

Mick,
As Owens reply earlier today I just know you make full on sense than what my tiny mind is thinking just now.
Do you think a 25lb will soon wear off?? I wonder if the hammer can be replaced etc? I just don't know.
But I understand what your saying, why have a little one if one day I will need a big one, I might as well go for a big one in the first instance.
Top advice there me thinks for definite especially from the likes of your good self.
Yeah time is my greatest ally, that's why I chose it, I'm too in experienced,naive etc I want to learn as much as I can then when ready armed with what you guys have given me go for the chosen hammer.
I made nearly 20 knives without a grinder etc. just so I could learn if it was gonna be a waste of money, lucky ian game me a lil grinder that he made 60+ knives on then I made nearly 30 then invested in an Aly Maxi grinder, same thing here with a power hammer, all good things cme to those who wait and all that good stuff.
Read,research,visit guys and get hands on if I can is my way ahead...
As Owen said lets not go into metal presses...my head will definitely be mashed
Kind regards,
Bri

[John N]

Great post owen!

The best for general 'what we do, and a bit to spare' , Massey 2 cwt 'Clear Space' . Ive got one (and could have had pretty well anything )

A 25lb mechanical is going to be very frustrating power wise after a short while.

Your welcome to pop into my place and see the options!

[John N]

This is about as nice as small power hammers get (might still be a bit big for some stuff) - Im pulling it out of an MOD workshop later this month (ie, its hardly ever been used )



Lots of work to install though - see owens comments above, and the thread I did 'in she goes' where I installed a slightly smaller version to give you an idea.

The main problem with this hammer would be keeping all the blacksmiths from coming round and drooling on it

[grommit]

Great post owen!

The best for general 'what we do, and a bit to spare' , Massey 2 cwt 'Clear Space' . Ive got one (and could have had pretty well anything )

A 25lb mechanical is going to be very frustrating power wise after a short while.

Your welcome to pop into my place and see the options!

Has anyone noticed my typical Geordie error???
when i mentioned 25lb hammer is should of been 25 KILO's...I really an thick!
really sorry for any confusion, so now I'm off to thrash myself a hundred times with a bunch of nettles
Bri