Traffic Cops 05.07.12 BBC1

[Kiri]

Sitting here watching "Traffic Cops" on BBC1

Not normally what I watch honest

However tonight's episode was quite interesting.

There were three examples of the police dealing with items.

1. The first scenario was where they stopped a car showing as stolen that had baseball bats in the boot. There was also a baseball with them and the man said he played baseball. You could see what the officer initially thought. But on explanation, no problem (with the bats)

2. The second scenario was a lorry driver parked on the hard shoulder. He was peeling potatoes with a fixed blade kitchen knife, which he then waved angrily at the Highways Agency staff who told him to move on. Again the Police seemed to accept why he had the knife. Although fined for parking on the hard shoulder, he certainly wasn't dragged off on an Off Wep charge. (it wasn't entirely clear whether he got the knife back, my impression was that he did)

3. The final scenario was that there were two Polish homeless guys camping under a bridge. They were clearly camping and fishing. They had a machete and a sheath knife. The officer took the sharps and said that as he had found them in those circumstances he wouldn't be charging them, however they were not allowed knives, so he was taking them. He then commented to his colleague he was just going to book them in to be destroyed.

I thought the first two examples showed good common sense. However the third gave a very erroneous impression.

I think the two men clearly had good reason for a fixed blade. The officer knew he couldn't get a conviction, he then just took the sharps (no paperwork was shown although that may have been edited out)

The men were admittedly camping where they shouldn't be and admitted to having taken amphetamines (though none were found) so procedurally the police could have removed the sharps in connection with another offence. However this was not the reason they gave.

Interesting to see their general attitude both good and bad. In other parts of the programme there were other comments about the public instantly calling in if they spotted a knife anywhere.

(Season 10. Episode 4 of 6 "Killer on the loose")

If anyone wants to watch it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/...q=traffic+cops

The scene with the guys camping under the bridge is approx 17 mins before the end.

[Danzo]

In other parts of the programme there were other comments about the public instantly calling in if they spotted a knife anywhere.

There's a knife in mi kitchen what am I gonna do?
There's a knife in mi kitchen what am I gonna go?
I'm gonna report that knife thats what I'm gonna do,
I'm gonna report that knife.........





Danzo

[bwildered]

I thought the first two examples showed good common sense. However the third gave a very erroneous impression.

I think the two men clearly had good reason for a fixed blade. The officer knew he couldn't get a conviction, he then just took the sharps (no paperwork was shown although that may have been edited out)

The men were admittedly camping where they shouldn't be and admitted to having taken amphetamines (though none were found) so procedurally the police could have removed the sharps in connection with another offence. However this was not the reason they gave.

Interesting to see their general attitude both good and bad.

Without commenting on the procedures or the law, could it not be seen as common sense to take a machete off someone, who admits to having taken amphetamines? Good reason for a fixed blade or not, I don't think the two mix well!

Just my 2p.

Edit: just re-read your post and I now see that your gripe was indeed about the procedure, so sorry and feel free to ignore me! However, I think that common sense was applied to the end result, if not the procedure.

[earthman]

If those two guy's with the knives had been UK citizens I wonder if the out come had been any different?

What's the betting that they would have been arrested/charged??

[Kiri]

I would agree amphetamines and machetes don't generally mix well. Though I've heard you can clear an awful lot of brambles in a very short space of time!

I know how it sounds. But if you watch the clip they have said that they can't have the machete before the mention of the amphetamines. It's not that the guy was bouncing around like Zebedee, at no time was there a safety concern mentioned. It wasn't clear that they had taken them recently, just at some point over the five days they had been there. The officer even commented that they were just two guys "surviving"

They were in a tent, with a pile of wood nearby, a fire, the machete sticking out of a log. With fishing gear, and gutted fish present. In fact (excluding the amphetamine use, the fact they were foreign and looked a bit "crusty") it could quite easily have described the scene from any number of canoeing trips I've been on where a bit of unscheduled riverside camping has occurred.

(Personally I wouldn't have left the machete sticking out of the log where people might spot it, but then I'm used to the public perception of bladed articles in the Uk)

The officer gives a little speech afterwards that you are not allowed locking blades or "locked blades" (think he meant fixed blades) in public.

The commentator also mentions that they don't understand our laws about camping and machetes!

On watching it again they do actually have some paperwork they are filling in.

The clip starts 17 mins before the end of the programme. (just prior to that is the kitchen knife / lorry driver scene)

[Average Joe]

Do the high campers have the right to go to court, (like any one else), & if the court finds in their favour, retain their property?

If so, no problem.

[hayalan]

I watched this and I am a knife collector and an ex bedfordshire Police Officer! I did wonder how the guys were going to now survive with out a knife to use on the fish and and obtain firewood. We do have a problem with illegal fishing and homeless east european men locally, but I think it illustrated some very entrenched views that have developed about knives, common sens eis sometimes lacking. " weeks ago I was getting on a Brittany ferry with motorbike and wife, all luggaged up with tow other middle aged couples, aske dif we had any knives ( I should have just said no) but I produced from my tank bag wit hmy first aid kit, puncture repair kit and gaffa tape my 'soldier' Vitrinox which has a locking blade. Got to sieze that I was told, illegal in UK to have a locking blade. I moaned loudly about how it was part of my tool kit and would be used to help repair punctures ( you nee dto make a good sized hole) and used for picnics during holiday, I was finally allowed to keep it mainly because I kept moaning, but otherwise it would have just been iezed and bined, just a shame common sense does hardly feature anymore, 6 over 50's on a motorbike holiday with a small locking blade is hardly a youth gang in an inner city packing knives. rant over

[mrcharly]

Got to sieze that I was told, illegal in UK to have a locking blade.

Who made that claim? It's absolute cobblers

[vizsla]

I watched this and said the same thing to my missis, they were not in a public place and had good reason for the knives.
Those men were surviving with little resourcesband the police took there most important items.
The machete was out unsheathed on display so id half understand that but the knife was in there tent out of site.
Unfortunatly some people see a knife and all they see is a weapon no matter the circumstances and its too far gone to change these peoples opinions it will only get worse as things like gang culture increase. Moan moan

[UrbanDreamer]

I saw it too. Sadly the wife is addicted to such shows. As has been said there was quite a bit of common sense, except the dubious bit about seizing camping tools. Far better than a earlier program that showed a Bedford police officer arresting someone (handcuffs etc) for being a tree surgeon! Well technically for having the tools of his trade (a chainsaw) with him. The "arresting" officer was certain that such things were illegal in public, despite there being trees within 100 yards.

The program reported that he was latter released without charge. Perhaps lessons are being learned.

[Kiri]

Do the high campers have the right to go to court, (like any one else), & if the court finds in their favour, retain their property?

If so, no problem.

Yes they do.

If they had objected to the police officer taking their property then the officer would have had a choice of either arresting them or allowing them to keep their knives and go on their way.

If arrested they would most likely qualify for publicly funded legal representation. (Didn't look like they had any funds or assets to pay their own way)

However imagine you were camping in Poland, assuming you are not Polish, if the police came up to you and said xyz was illegal and they could seize something, would you risk challenging it?

It's quite likely that if the men had objected the officers could have taken the knives in relation to some other offence.

The men might also be able to pursue a civil claim if seizing their knives was illegal. Didn't look like they could afford to do that though.

What caused me to comment is that here you have a popular programme with high viewing figures, on BBC1 during peak viewing time, that is very clearly putting out the message that it is illegal to have a fixed blade or lock knife in a public place and that it is illegal to have a machete or sheath knife for camping.

This is legally inaccurate.

Earlier in the programme the police officer says how good it is that the public call them whenever they see someone with: knives, hammers, screwdrivers, firearms or replica firearms. This was good as they could all be used to hurt people.

Not helpful to legitimate knife users following their various hobbies.

[Danzo]

Far better than a earlier program that showed a Bedford police officer arresting someone (handcuffs etc) for being a tree surgeon! Well technically for having the tools of his trade (a chainsaw) with him. The "arresting" officer was certain that such things were illegal in public, despite there being trees within 100 yards.

The program reported that he was latter released without charge. Perhaps lessons are being learned.

Hopefully the officer was dismissed without pay.....


Danzo

[chewie]

Hopefully the officer was dismissed without pay.....


Danzo

for making a mistake?

[Danzo]

for making a mistake?

No, of course not, everyone can make a mistake and you know how often I've said that police officers can't be expected to know all about every aspect of law. But these type of TV shows bring out the worst in people and I suspect this is an example of an officer showing off to camera, and that has no place in the police service.

I think that serving police officers should not be allowed on such cheap entertainment shows. There's obviously scope for documentary portrayal of working police officers within strict editorial guidelines, but the format of these type of shows is nothing but two-minute attention span sensationalist entertainment and does neither the police nor the public any good.

Danzo

[chewie]

Sitting here watching "Traffic Cops" on BBC1

Not normally what I watch honest

However tonight's episode was quite interesting.

There were three examples of the police dealing with items.

1. The first scenario was where they stopped a car showing as stolen that had baseball bats in the boot. There was also a baseball with them and the man said he played baseball. You could see what the officer initially thought. But on explanation, no problem (with the bats)

2. The second scenario was a lorry driver parked on the hard shoulder. He was peeling potatoes with a fixed blade kitchen knife, which he then waved angrily at the Highways Agency staff who told him to move on. Again the Police seemed to accept why he had the knife. Although fined for parking on the hard shoulder, he certainly wasn't dragged off on an Off Wep charge. (it wasn't entirely clear whether he got the knife back, my impression was that he did)

3. The final scenario was that there were two Polish homeless guys camping under a bridge. They were clearly camping and fishing. They had a machete and a sheath knife. The officer took the sharps and said that as he had found them in those circumstances he wouldn't be charging them, however they were not allowed knives, so he was taking them. He then commented to his colleague he was just going to book them in to be destroyed.

I thought the first two examples showed good common sense. However the third gave a very erroneous impression.

Baseball bat ... might possibly be an intended off weap but no likelihood of a conviction without evidence of intent, and there was none. Good call.

Lorry driver, kitchen knife ... waving it at someone is a bad idea but again but circumstances as described disclosed no violent intent, reasonable use of discretion.

Indigent drug users with machete, call from concerned citizen, camping/fishing bylaws contravened. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say camping or not, this isn't Borneo, a machete is probably overkill. Would you really want to make a snap decision to leave these guys with a machete?

No-one got arrested or prosecuted. It would be a harsh person indeed to suggest an excessive police approach to knives.