Traffic Cops 05.07.12 BBC1

[UrbanDreamer]

Im going camping in a secure site nearby is some land I have permission to take wood from , however have to take it back to site to chop .
My intention is to teach my girl how to make tarp pegs feather sticks etc etc.

This was going to be a PM, but then I thought that the moderator might have a opinion about me providing a link.

Re camping and knives: You should have no problems, provided you avoid worrying any "non knife people".

Indeed some 5 years ago a couple of cops approached me while I was camping. I was actually wearing sheath knife and using another knife to prep food. Their only interest was if I had seen any local lads riding motorbikes without helmets!

I just thought that I'd suggest that you checkout Forest School Camps.
http://www.fsc.org.uk/

I went as a kid and send all my kids off with them. It's old style camping. Cooking on wood fires, pits for organic waste and washing in the river.

Sorry to post on this thread, but as I said, the moderator might regard this post or a PM as spam.

[Cultcollector]

Rouge that's a good idea thanks I will print that out but the sad reality is that it has to be done.
Urbandreamer thanks ill give it a look I have been in a rain forest environment a few x but that was years ago.
The level of my knowledge isn,t great though and ill look into that link thanks.
Danzo that's exactly the point i was implying your appearance may belie your actual character and intent come second .
That said I don't suggest anybody put up with their rights being abused, and would always argue my right.
But Danzo I cant vouch for you but if by voice you mean if all else fails you could entertain the officers with your rendition of silver machine , im afraid ic end up on a breach of the peace charge .
I have somewhere a cd of hall of the mountain grill maybe ill give that a listen and look for alternatives LOL.

[Danzo]

I have somewhere a cd of hall of the mountain grill maybe ill give that a listen and look for alternatives LOL.

Alternatives to Hawkwind?

Well there's electronic dance music, a wide genre for sure, but Hawkwind invented it.





Danzo

[chewie]

Would the out come of been the same if there had been no mention of drugs then? No drugs were actually present at the time.

Possibly. The issue is public safety. Possessing machetes in public requires the cops to make a decision, and the likelihood of the owner having sound judgement at all times must surely be a factor in that decision.

I gather that a fair few members on this forum (and others) like to spend their weekends camping/bush crafting with similar tools, admittedly they are more than likely to be on a farm/private land, even so, a member of public may see them from a path way etc so who's to say that the police wouldn't be called? Is one only allowed to use an axe to split logs then?

The whole point of the matter is that they weren't bushcrafters on private land, they were drug abusers in a public park.

[chewie]

From what I see/hear it's clear that not all officers even know the law correctly.

I can absolutely guarantee that no copper knows all laws correctly. Nor does any lawyer. Have you any idea how much of the stuff there is?

[Danzo]

I can absolutely guarantee that no copper knows all laws correctly. Nor does any lawyer. Have you any idea how much of the stuff there is?

To get to the foot of the mountain as a lawyer you study hard, bloody hard, for three years and you commit to memory a vast amount of law.

After that you decide if you want to spend an awful lot of money and study very intensively for another year and become either a solicitor or a barrister.

Four years basic, doing nothing but Law.

Police Officers get about ten weeks training, which has to cover everything. It's a tribute to our police officers that most of them are good, honest and dedicated to serving us, the public.

Danzo

[earthman]

I can absolutely guarantee that no copper knows all laws correctly. Nor does any lawyer. Have you any idea how much of the stuff there is?

Fair enough, there's a ton of laws but surely all Officers should know the knife one by now?
Considering how much it's in the media and how often one is involved in a crime.

[Doright]

Having read this entire thread I think post #81 says it all. The time spent by officers on learning about sharply bladed pointy stuff amounts to about one day at best during basic training. Although the members of this forum may feel that the ol Bill should know everything about blades the simple fact is they need to know a little about a hell of a lot.

Mr Danzo & chewie speak much common sense and truth.

[mirage]

I can absolutely guarantee that no copper knows all laws correctly. Nor does any lawyer. Have you any idea how much of the stuff there is?

I was told during my service that we could be called upon to act based on our knowledge of over 400 Acts of Parliament.

And my service didn't include all of the last lot's "New criminal offence every day" period.

s.139 CJA '88 is important to Knife People, sure. Just remember that it's 1/139th of one Act, which Act is itself less than 1/400th of the beat bobby's law burden.

mirage

[Hepotec]

I was told during my service that we could be called upon to act based on our knowledge of over 400 Acts of Parliament.


mirage

Yes, it's a whole new world now that we no longer have the Bow Street Runners, Midge.

[mirage]

Yes, it's a whole new world now that we no longer have the Bow Street Runners, Midge.

Don't make me go all rattle, cudgel and bullseye lamp on your 'arris!

mirage

[Rogue]

To get to the foot of the mountain as a lawyer you study hard, bloody hard, for three years and you commit to memory a vast amount of law.

After that you decide if you want to spend an awful lot of money and study very intensively for another year and become either a solicitor or a barrister.

Four years basic, doing nothing but Law.

Police Officers get about ten weeks training, which has to cover everything. It's a tribute to our police officers that most of them are good, honest and dedicated to serving us, the public.

Danzo

Most people are picking up LLMs along the way now, so add another year onto that. And then another year at least for pupillage/training contract after qualifying.

In fairness by the time you hit Bar school you get a lovely copy of Archbolds so you never have to remember anything ever again.

You still have to memorise vast chunks of the CPR though. The first volume alone is nearly 3000 pages

[Rogue]

I was told during my service that we could be called upon to act based on our knowledge of over 400 Acts of Parliament.

That's because back in those days they only had 400 Acts in total. Things started to pick up a bit after the Magna Carta though

s.139 CJA '88 is important to Knife People, sure. Just remember that it's 1/139th of one Act, which Act is itself less than 1/400th of the beat bobby's law burden.

It's actually 1/173rd plus roughly as many sections again in the gazillion schedules attached to the Act, plus knowing which of those have been subsequently added, amended or repealed. Plus knowing how any of those might have been affected by subsequent caselaw. Yeah I'm glad I don't have to carry all that around in my head, my brain would dribble out of my ears

[parbajtor]

Most people are picking up LLMs along the way now, so add another year onto that. And then another year at least for pupillage/training contract after qualifying.

In fairness by the time you hit Bar school you get a lovely copy of Archbolds so you never have to remember anything ever again.

You still have to memorise vast chunks of the CPR though. The first volume alone is nearly 3000 pages

There's a couple of thousand pages in Redgraves Health & Safety and that's just the Regulations not the ACOPS or other Guidance.
Without the benefit of the "Enabling" Health & Safety At Work Act, I don't know how I'd cope remembering things. HSWA and the HSE strategy is like a
Grand Unification Theory. I think that Law enforcement is made more difficult in the UK through lack of a written constitution. (OK we have one imposed by Europe, but this is largely ignored and doesn't seem to get implimented until the whole procedure (arrest/conviction/sentencing/appeal) has played out. Law Enforcement Procedures that bear the Constitution in mind seem to contain less "process errors", so not only do "poor" prosecution cases get rejected earlier, but there's less chance of convictions being overturned later on. I hesitate to speculate on how many "miscarriages of justice" could have been avoided by having a written constitution, but as long as someone can get sent to prison for life and have their conviction overturned 15 years later WITH NO COMPENSATION PAYED, then no great damage has been done and there's no need to "rock the boat".

[Kiri]

I've got the greatest respect for the boys in blue generally and as I have mentioned have a number of close friends who are currently serving officers.

I appreciate that the average bobby has a lot to learn, but what they have to learn is a fraction of what a lawyer would have to.

The point being that the human brain is quite capable of doing great things.

A Solicitor will have studied to have a reasonable working knowledge of probably at least the minimum of:

Criminal Law
Contract Law
Public Law
Tort
EC Law
Land Law (& conveyancing)
Trusts and "Equitable Obligations"
Business Law
Tax
Probate

And that's before you get in to legal research, drafting, advocacy.

They will then have specialist knowledge in their chosen areas.

The law on knives to the level that a beat bobby needs is really not difficult.

1. For a fixed blade or lock knife you need a good reason to have one in a public place.
2. For a folding knife with a cutting edge up to 3" that does not lock, you don't need a good or in fact any reason.
3. Certain items are specifically banned. See list. (I'm sure a list could be provided)
4. If you have proof that someone is carrying anything to use as a weapon you can nick them.

That really is all a street officer needs to know. It won't cover every scenario but would be a damn sight better than the level of ignorance shown in some circles.

Considering the high profile of knife crime in the media and government circles and the fact that dealing with points and blades / off weap offences is not exactly unusual, I don't think there's too great an argument for getting it so badly wrong.

You could probably provide a nice laminated flow chart that could go in a lot more detail than I have.

Another point is that officers have to deal with far more complex law for other offences.

The Theft Act 1968
The Misuse of Drugs Act 1972

Are both far more complicated in terms of dealing with drug or theft offences than CJA88 is for knives.

I think the reason you get poor decisions sometimes regarding knives is not always because the officers don't understand the law, it's because they know the public doesn't understand the law.