Sale & Marketing of knives thread

[Ross]

Some people have asked about the marketing of knives specfically for the game of 'Com'. The text below is credited to DD1967 (from the USN) who prepared it:

6.5 Manufacture and Sale of Weapons

In addition to the controls on the carrying of weapons, there are also restrictions on the sale, manufacture, hire and buying of some weapons. The legislation is aimed at restricting the supply of such weapons and their availability in England and Wales. As such, they are mainly concerned with manufacture, sale, offering for sale etc. and should not be confused with offences of carrying such weapons (which are dealt with above).

Some of the offences relate to possession for the purpose of sale, hire etc.; this is a much wider term than that used in the carrying offences (‘has with him') and is discussed in greater detail in the context of drugs (see Crime, chapter 6) and firearms (see chapter 5 above).

Offence - Manufacture, Sale or Hire of Weapons - Restriction of Offensive
Weapons Act 1959, s. 1
Triable summarily. Six months' imprisonment and/or a fine.
(No specific power of arrest)

The Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, s. 1 states:

(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person-
(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a ‘flick knife' or ‘flick gun'; or
any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a ‘gravity knife',

shall be guilty of an offence . . .

Offence - Manufacture, Sale and Hire of Offensive Weapons -
Criminal Justice Act 1988, s. 141
Triable summarily. Six months' imprisonment and/or a fine.
(No specific power of arrest)

The Criminal Justice Act 1988, s. 141 states:

(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence

Keynote

The importation of the weapons described in these offences is also prohibited (under s. 141(2) and (4) respectively.

The weapons to which the 1988 Act offence applies are set out in the schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 (SI 1988 No. 2019). The weapons listed include knuckledusters, swordsticks, some telescopic truncheons, butterfly knives and a whole range of martial arts weapons. The complete list is as follows:
. . .
(a) a knuckleduster that is, a band of metal or other hard material worn on one or more fingers, and designed to cause injury, and any weapon incorporating a knuckleduster;
(b) a swordstick, that is, a hollow walking-stick or cane containing a blade which may be used as a sword;
(c) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘handclaw', being a band of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn around the hand;
(d) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘belt buckle knife', being a buckle which incorporates or conceals a knife;
(e) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘push dagger', being a knife the handle of which fits within a clenched fist and the blade of which protrudes from between two fingers;
(f ) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘hollow kubotan', being a cylindrical container containing a number of sharp spikes;
(g) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘footclaw', being a bar of metal or other hard material from which a number of sharp spikes protrude, and worn strapped to the foot;
(h) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘shuriken', ‘shaken' or ‘death star', being a hard non-flexible plate having three or more sharp radiating points and designed to be thrown;
(i) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘balisong' or ‘butterfly knife', being a blade enclosed by its handle, which is designed to split down the middle, without the operation of a spring or other mechanical means, to reveal the blade;
( j) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to its handle;
(k) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘blowpipe' or ‘blow gun' being a hollow tube out of which hard pellets or darts are shot by the use of breath;
(l) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘kusari gama', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle;
(m) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘kyoketsu shoge', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a hooked knife;
(n) the weapon sometimes known as a ‘manrikigusari' or ‘kusari', being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at each end to a hard weight or hand grip.
For the purposes of the schedule, a weapon is an antique if it was manufactured more than 100 years before the date of any offence alleged to have been committed in respect of the weapon.

The courts will take notice of the fact that a weapon has been outlawed under this legislation in deciding whether or not it is ‘made' for causing injury under the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (see para. 6.2.3).

Defences

There are a number of defences which include Crown servants and visiting forces (s. 141(5) to (7)) and transactions made by or to museums and galleries (s. 141( to (11)).


6.6 Knives

Although some knives will fall into the categories of offence covered above, there are further restrictions which apply to knives generally.

6.6.1 Sale of Knives etc. to Persons under 16

Offence - Selling, Knives and Articles to Under 16's - Criminal Justice
Act 1988, s. 141A
Triable summarily. Six months' imprisonment and/or a fine.
(No specific power of arrest)

The Criminal Justice Act 1988, s. 141A states:

(1) Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence . . .
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to-
(a) any knife, knife blade or razor blade,
(b) any axe, and
(c) any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.
(3) This section does not apply to any article described in-
(a) section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,
(b) an order made under section 141(2) of this Act, or
(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under under this section.

Keynote

This offence does not apply to folding pocket knives with a cutting edge not exceeding three inches (7.62 cms), neither does it apply to certain types of razor blade in a cartridge where not more than 2 mm of blade is exposed (Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Exemptions) Order 1996 (SI 1996 No. 3064)).

Defence

Section 141A of the 1988 Act states:

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of the offence.


6.6.2 Unlawful Marketing of Knives

Offence - Unlawful Marketing of Knives - Knives Act 1997, s. 1
Triable either way. Two years' imprisonment and/or a fine on indictment; six months'
imprisonment and/or a fine summarily.
(No specific power of arrest)

The Knives Act 1997, s. 1 states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he markets a knife in a way which-
(a) indicates, or suggests, that it is suitable for combat; or
(b) is otherwise likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.

Keynote

‘Knife' for this purpose means any instrument which has a blade or which is sharply pointed (s. 10 of the 1997 Act).

Marketing will include selling, hiring, offering or exposing for sale or hire and possessing it for those purposes (s. 1(4)).

‘Indicates or suggests' is a very loose concept requiring no mens rea on the part of the defendant (however, see defences below).

‘Suitable for combat' means suitable for use as a weapon for inflicting injury to anyone or causing them to fear injury, and ‘violent behaviour' means an unlawful act inflicting injury or causing a person to fear injury (s. 10). The elements in italics (author's emphasis) show that the legislation is intended to address the fear of the use of knives as well as their actual use.

The suggestion that knives are suitable for combat may be express or it may be implied by the name given to a product (e.g. ‘commando') or by the packaging or advertisement relating to it (s. 1(3)). Therefore such packaging or advertising material, together with any surrounding advertisements, can be produced in evidence.

Defences

The Knives Act 1997, ss. 3 and 4 state:

3.-(1) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 1 to prove that-
(a) the knife was marketed-
(i) for use by the armed forces of any country;
(ii) as an antique or curio; or
(iii) as falling within such other category (if any) as may be prescribed;
(b) it was reasonable for the knife to be marketed in that way; and
(c) there were no reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person into whose possession the knife might come in consequence of the way in which it was marketed would use it for an unlawful purpose.
(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 2 to prove that-
(a) the material was published in connection with marketing a knife-
(i) for use by the armed forces of any country;
(ii) as an antique or curio; or
(iii) as falling within such other category (if any) as may be prescribed;
(b) it was reasonable for the knife to be marketed in that way; and
(c) there were no reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person into whose possession the knife might come in consequence of the publishing of the material would use it for an unlawful purpose.

4.-(1) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 1 to prove that he did not know or suspect, and had no reasonable grounds for suspecting, that the way in which the knife was marketed-
(a) amounted to an indication or suggestion that the knife was suitable for combat; or
(b) was likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.
(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 2 to prove that he did not know or suspect, and had no reasonable grounds for suspecting, that the material-
(a) amounted to an indication or suggestion that the knife was suitable for combat; or
(b) was likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.
(3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under section 1 or 2 to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid committing the offence.

Keynote

The defences at s. 3 require the person to show that the knife was marketed/the material published:

• for one of the uses at s. 3(1)(a)(i)-(iii) and s. 3(2)(a)(i)-(iii) and

• that it was reasonable to market it in that way and

• that there were no reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person would use the knife for an unlawful purpose.

The defences at s. 4 require the person to show that he/she:

• did not know or suspect, or

• have any reasonable grounds to suspect

• that the marketing/the marketing material amounted to an indication or even a suggestion that the knife was suitable for combat or

• was likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.

There is also the general defence under s. 4(3) for the person to show that he/she took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid committing the offence.

In each of these cases, the standard of proof will be against the balance of probabilities (see Evidence and Procedure, chapter 11).


6.6.3 Publications Relating to Knives

Offence - Publications Relating to Knives - Knives Act 1997, s. 2
Triable either way. Two years' imprisonment and/or a fine on indictment; six months'
imprisonment and/or a fine summarily.
(No specific power of arrest)

The Knives Act 1997, s. 2 states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he publishes any written, pictorial or other material in connection with the marketing of any knife and that material-
(a) indicates, or suggests, that the knife is suitable for combat; or
(b) is otherwise likely to stimulate or encourage violent behaviour involving the use of the knife as a weapon.

Keynote

This offence is aimed at the publishers of advertisements rather than those who are involved in the sale and marketing of knives. The defences are shown above.

[bagman]

Thanks for that Ross

I had forgotton all that twadle about the "ninja death rays" etc

I also knew I had seen somewhere legal that is was the cutting edge of the blade measured for a "folding pocket knife" not blade length althogu as I restrict myslef to a Pride at the moment that does not really seem all that relevant

Do you remember those horrible double page adds in the shooting mags for absolute knives that I guess put all this rubish into motion?

I think they were mostly from Battle orders or something down on the south coast somewhere (Hastings?)

Sad but true

[JORVIK]

Ross,
Thanks for the reminder. However I have never seen anybody being prosecuted for that offence. The Law isn’t some big edifice controlled by a computer. Prosecutors tend to go with the numbers. You get charged with S139 and Possession of an offensive weapon (some of the time) because they are not sure which one will stick. They have the offensive weapon in reserve, (and don’t forget there is plea bargaining)
Anything grander than that isn’t usually considered. :p This law was designed to make the streets a safer place, not to punish serious collectors, so I think there is a bit of a blind eye given for collectors I mean if you want to get a really good knife you have to look around for it and pay a hefty price. street life don’t walk around with expensive knives. But if they did the law would change to accommodate them.
We are really talking about a hypothetical situation
Example
An officer arresting a scumbag “ Where did you get the flicky?”
Answer “ Off a fella in a pub…or, Found it”
Officer “ Where did you find it?”
“ Dunno”. End of interview……..£50 fine. Destruction of knife.
Remember this offence is summary only (can only be tried in the Magistrates Courts) not either way (like S139 or poss/off weapon), which can go to the Crown Court.
I would imagine it would be very difficult to prove as in the example above where you actually purchased the knife.
I reckon you could market a Sushi knife as the greatest of all Killer blades.....that act looks pretty cosmetic to me ( at this stage anyway )
Although, who would prosecute? the police or Customs

[ZDP-189]

Erm, sorry to nit-pick, but Com is a ball sport. See my post in the same forum.

[JORVIK]

Danzo

Wasn’t there a case brought against a store under the 1959 act?. They had a switchblade knife on display in the window. It was found that they hadn’t committed any offence under the Act as the knife in the window was an “ Invitation to Treat” ( if that is the correct legalise?) and not actually for sale.

[Martyn]

Thanks for the info Ross & Jorvik, this has the makings of an interesting thread.

Stuck it to the top.

[Danzo]

Hi Jorvik

Yup, the famous case of Fisher v Bell (1961).

A shopkeeper was prosecuted for advertising flick knives for sale in his shop window. The difficulty facing the court was that in contract law the offer is made by the potential buyer and accepted by the seller. An advert is, as you rightly say, an 'invitation to treat' or in English, an invite to make an offer.

The case failed on this legal technicality. The shopkeeper could not 'offer for sale' as in English law the concept does not exist

This means that in strict legal terms one can put a auto on sale, but you face prosecution if you sell it.

And big to Ross for a great post. Now that my home system is clean and I have a working system at work I will try and pull all of this legal stuff together as I have been promising for a while. Family stuff keeps getting in the way but I hope to have it sorted soon! Any input from those with knowledge is welcomed. As I have said before I am an academic lawyer , not an expert on knife law. If you guys can help, then please do.

How do you think we should arrange stuff?

Jorvik, Ross, Mirage, Zadjoz and the rest of you who have as much wisdom as me; how should the info section of the law forum be organised?

Input please!

I just have the badge and gun (and decoder ring).....you guys are the people who read and contribute to the forum.

:thanks:



Danzo

[Yog]

Hi Jorvik

Yup, the famous case of Fisher v Bell (1961).

A shopkeeper was prosecuted for advertising flick knives for sale in his shop window. The difficulty facing the court was that in contract law the offer is made by the potential buyer and accepted by the seller. An advert is, as you rightly say, an 'invitation to treat' or in English, an invite to make an offer.

Danzo

Heck, that case takes me back some. I remember it from the first time I went to college. In fact it is about the only case I do remember from that dark distant past, can't think why ?

[Danzo]

Yog

I probably taught you in that dark and distant past. I was born in a small Scottish village in the year 1436. I have avoided the Quickening by teaching law in small towns for the last three hundred years. ZDP caught me out as I didn't expect that a hundred years spent in Hong Kong would be so obviously discovered......

Ah well........come the Kurgaan.

Again.

wordfigh

Danzo

[JORVIK]

Hi Danzo,( or should it be Connor)
. Law is a big subject that encompasses a lot of things. To understand it properly you have to see how it’s applied and also what influences it. There are only a few laws governing knives. I think that it is useful to discuss their impact on collectors, and to talk around them and discuss hypothetical situations, this would broaden the discussion somewhat, because we would probably have to look at other issues that have been affected by legislation and see how this could affect knife possession e.g. the gun legislation of recent years.
There are lots of grey areas, which I frankly don’t have a clue about. As an example there is a Czech website that will sell you an Auto with the spring removed, and then send you the spring later on. If you were to do this what offence would you be committing? If you wanted the knife as a collector, but as a non working Auto and elected to not have the spring sent would you be committing an offence? Who would prosecute? It is not always the police who do this. The Customs and Exercise can prosecute, as can the Social services and the local authorities.
I’ve prattled on quite a bit already and I’m a bit unsure how these forums work, discretion seems the norm…so if I come across as tactless or speak to much please feel free to delete.

[keith_beef]

Heck, that case takes me back some. I remember it from the first time I went to college. In fact it is about the only case I do remember from that dark distant past, can't think why ?

What? That's the only case you can remember? Surely you've not forgotten the Carbolic Smokeball Company? Sale of Goods Act, if memory serves...


Keith.

[JORVIK]

And what of R v Donohue ( if memory serves my befuddled alcohlol ridden brain
I drink even as we speak :o )....was this the one about the snail in Coke bottle.....although snails don't mean that much to one who dwells in france :p ........then again Coc doesn't mean that much to one who dwells in liverpool

[Danzo]

And what of R v Donohue ( if memory serves my befuddled alcohlol ridden brain
I drink even as we speak :o )....was this the one about the snail in Coke bottle.....although snails don't mean that much to one who dwells in france :p ........then again Coc doesn't mean that much to one who dwells in liverpool

Donoghue V Stevenson (1932) The snail in the ginger beer bottle!



Danzo

[JORVIK]

OOPS. Your quite right.

[Switch]

Did the law regarding the sale and marketing of knives change recently in regards to the addition of certain items on the 'banned' list? (telescopic batons etc.)