Ask-A-Cop, knives and related issues

[earthman]

but I'm transporting it. does transporting it to use between two private residencies count as a reason?

That's a very good question. My first thought would be that you would have to state a use/task at nan's house for needing that bladed article. Apart from the initial purchase, from a Hi St shop/store, when is 'transporting' a good reason on it's own? Maybe taking it to a retailer to be sharpened/repaired or for a valuation if it's an antique knife.

Having said that, I'm sure that many members who go to these meets just to show their collection would say that they have good reason too.

[ChrisR]

You have to have a good reason to have a bladed article in public but it doesn't have to be the best tool for the job and it doesn't mean you have to use it to do the job. The law is there to stop people routinely carrying dangerous objects for no apparent reason - "just in case" - the implication being that they want it for nefarious reasons. You can't stretch this too far though because for your good reason to hold water the police-officer must believe it ... so if you carry a sword but your good reason is that you use it to prune roses then he probably won't believe you.

Given what you have said, you do seem have a good reason for having the Leatherman Wave (you need it to help in a DIY job) and you therefore have a good reason to carry it to and from your job. If you moved house or were taking your knives to show a friend then this is also presumably a good reason - as long as you can prove what you have told the officer. But remember that the burden of proof will be on you.

[earthman]

or were taking your knives to show a friend then this is also presumably a good reason - as long as you can prove what you have told the officer.

Yes Chris, I think a lot of us would presume that. It just sounds a bit too weak to me.

[ChrisR]

Yes Chris, I think a lot of us would presume that. It just sounds a bit too weak to me.

It all boils down to the circumstances of the "discovery". If you have been asked to turn out your pockets or have been patted down then why? What did you do to come to the attention of the police? What do you look like - are you looking like someone that the average police officer would believe or are you wearing a hoody and hanging around in a gang of youths? What did you say when the police officer asked you about the knife? Was the knife of a type that might be used for the good reason? Was the knife being carried in a way compatible with the good reason (was it in a tool box or down your sock)? If you are taking it to an appointment and the police officer tries to confirm your story then is there someone they could phone who would back you up? Are you going to a pre-planned event (like Knives-UK)?

It isn't as simple as "is it legal to carry my knife to my mate's house to show him?"

[HEUTE]

Hello.

First I want to say thanks for the great resource, I joined this website entirely because of it, and sorry If this is the wrong place for this etc.
(And I am sorry for the list type format but it’s the best way of getting my info across that I can think of)
Would you, as a police officer (and please don’t hold back) think that this is legal and reasonable cause?
-In London
- Aged 14, 5 foot 11
-Carrying LM Super Tool 300
-Going to or from a farm where I volunteer
-Wearing (most likely dirty) cargo trousers, carrying backpack full of tools etc etc
-Able to provide example uses of the tool and name/contact info/references / OF said farm
-Showing maturity, responsibility and not doing anything violent/threatening etc etc

Thanks in advance,

HEUTE

[paulrbarnard]

Hello.

First I want to say thanks for the great resource, I joined this website entirely because of it, and sorry If this is the wrong place for this etc.
(And I am sorry for the list type format but it’s the best way of getting my info across that I can think of)
Would you, as a police officer (and please don’t hold back) think that this is legal and reasonable cause?
-In London
- Aged 14, 5 foot 11
-Carrying LM Super Tool 300
-Going to or from a farm where I volunteer
-Wearing (most likely dirty) cargo trousers, carrying backpack full of tools etc etc
-Able to provide example uses of the tool and name/contact info/references / OF said farm
-Showing maturity, responsibility and not doing anything violent/threatening etc etc

Thanks in advance,

HEUTE

Not in the police myself but that looks like a text book justification.

[ChrisR]

Again, neither a police officer or a legal professional - just someone with a keen interest in UK knife law ... but it depends what the question is really:

Q: "Would I have a good reason, under s139?"
A: Very probably - if you are going to/from work that is a pre-booked appointment and needs a knife of some sort then you can't do much better really. Also, remember that some of your tools (screwdrivers or saws etc.) could also be classed as bladed/pointed articles.

Q: "Would a police officer be likely to stop me?"
A: Very possibly - young and scruffily dressed will make you more likely to be stopped than a middle-aged gent in a suit.

Q: "Would an officer be guaranteed to believe my good reason?"
A: Not at all - it is down to the circumstances and the individual officer. The safest thing is to be carrying no bladed/pointed articles in public but if you have to then you will always risk have your time wasted by an over-zealous search or detention.

[mrcharly]

Again, I'm not a police officer.

I think it would help if you had a letter from the farm stating that you work there and that you use the knife on the farm with their approval.

My son had to carry chef's knives to and from college and the college provided this sort of letter, specifically for use if stopped by the police.

[Yosarian]

I have read through much of this thread but I still have a question for a cop if there is still one answering. This is not specifically knife related but what is the law regarding having a locked "safe" box in a car. Under what conditions can one be compelled to open such a box. i.e. I have combination lock security box that I keep in my car, it is fireproof and pretty robust as far as forced entry - it would require some heavy duty machinery. If I am carrying any knives to and from where they will be used for there reasonable use I keep them locked up for my own security - it creates and extra barrier for any would be thieves - it is cabled to the frame of the vehicle btw. If I was stopped by an officer and asked about knives etc. . . must I always disclose the contents of the box or could they make me open it if I said it was legal doc's etc? Obviously If I was stopped on suspicion of possession of something illegal I would expect to have to open said box or have it destroyed while being opened but can I be compelled without reasonable suspicion?

[Kiri]

If the police officer has reasonable grounds for suspicion enough to stop and search your vehicle then yes they can demand you open the box.

s.2 PACE 84

Subject to subsection (3) to (5) below, a constable—
(a)may search—
(i)any person or vehicle;
(ii)anything which is in or on a vehicle,

Now there are of course other situations where the police can set up stop and search areas. Such as s.60 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1984 or s.44 Terrorism Act 2000 that would also allow them to search your vehicle regardless of the suspicion element.

(the Terrorism legislation is somewhat controversial)

If you were stopped by any police officer who found a locked box in your car that you refused to open, do you think that would maybe make them suspicious ?

(they would be instantly thinking gun, bomb, drugs etc.)

There are some situations where they would not be allowed to open the box, but to be honest if these applied to you, you would already know them and I'm not going to repeat them here as that information could be misused.

The bottom line is, if you have good reason to have a fixed blade or locking knife in a public place and you are legitimately on your way to or from that activity then you should clearly explain that to the officer and be aware of the law just in case they are not.

The locked box is a sensible security measure and might add to your argument that there is no offensive weapon element as the items are not accessible (this is not an element of the offence but is more circumstantial evidence of no intention to cause injury)

[Jacknife]

I watched one of those police programmes on TV today and they'd stopped some Asian lads for not wearing seat belts. In the car they found a 6" bladed knife. The lads were arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. Later they said the youths had been released without charge as they couldn't prove who owned the knife.
It would seem that if you (you'll probably need another person in the car for this to work) leave your knife on the floor of your car, and deny ever seeing it before in your life, you will stand a fair chance of getting off. Crazy World.

[metalbudgie]

And never forget the Hovercraft Act 1968...my favourite.

In this subsection "vessel" includes a hovercraft within the meaning of the Hovercraft Act 1968; and nothing in this subsection shall prejudice any power of search or any power to seize or detain property which is exercisable by a constable apart from this subsection.

[Silverflash]

If you are EDCing a knife, can you wear it plain to view? Say a sub 3 inch slip joint with a pocketclip attached to my belt? Is that acceptable to do?

[Corso]

yep perfectly legal but ask yourself do you want to draw attention to it? If an officer sees a knife he's going to want to check its legal isnt he,and if he doesn't know the legality of it he may well want to check it down the station....

[Silverflash]

yep perfectly legal but ask yourself do you want to draw attention to it? If an officer sees a knife he's going to want to check its legal isnt he,and if he doesn't know the legality of it he may well want to check it down the station....

Ah good point, perhaps I'll just let my shirt hang over it.