Shellac, what is it and where to get it?

[Chris Barry]

As understand shellac is natural something that hardens when it dries and can be used like epoxy for gluing things. I like the idea of using shelac but where can I get it from?

I was reading an article in the newspaper that said that shellac was used to form glazed coatings on confectionery, is a sweet factory a possible source for shellac?

What are the disadvantages of using shellac compared to epoxy?

[ANDYLASER]

Its The Combination Of The Ground Shell Of A Crustacean (not Sure Which One Though) And Laquer. Try Axminster Power Tools.

[MushiSushi]

that's actually a misnomer Andy ..... it's the secretions of a particular beetle disovlded in a vegetable spirit

[ANDYLASER]

Oops Apolagies

[keith_beef]

Beetle ****.

Buy it as "yellow flake shellac" and dissolve it in alcohol, or buy it already dissolved.

It is used as lacquer, or as glue.

I *think* that it may be one of the ingredients in "cutlers' resin", along with beeswax and pitch, but I may be wrong (yet again)...


KKK.

[Tvividr]

Shellac is not a glue and does not work like epoxy, but can still be used to “glue” a sticktang blade into a handle. The way to do this is by melting the shellack, which will harden when cool. This was a much used method to fasten blades in old times here in Norway, and there are still people who use this method – Dave Barker is one of them. I personally prefer epoxy and have only used shellac for this purpose one or two times, and that was at least 13 years ago. Dave is therefore in a better position to tell you how this is done.

I do use shellac a lot, but only for making sheaths and in bowmaking. Shellac can be used to “seal” the colours if you dye the inside of the sheaths with leatherdyes (otherwise they might stain especially light coloured wood handles). Shellac used inside / outside a leathersheath will also stiffen the leather – useful if you are not using halftanned leather.
In bowmaking it is a classic finish, and I use it for the final finish on my wooden bows – usually applied with oil in the way of “French Polish”, and then a final polish with wax.
I have heard about the use of shellac on confectionery, but I think you will be better of by contacting a cabinetmaker or any other person who makes fine furniture. Shellac was (and still is) used as a finish for very fine furniture – the finish is known as “French Polish”. It will give the wood a beautiful shine almost like a very thin layer of highly polished glass.
There are several grades of shellac – for my bows I only use the grade known as “Recto Superfine”, but for sheaths you can use almost any grade of shellac (I use the superfine though, as that is what I buy anyway).
I guess that any shop that sells paint and supplies for cabinetmakers etc will be able to help you – if not you might try to check the magazine “Furniture and Cabinetmaking” for addresses to suppliers.

Shellac is a strange thing. It originates as a pitch substance from the Ficus lacca tree, where a small insect (Coccus lacca - some sort of bug/lice) deposits its eggs. The female insect is stuck in the substance and dies while the larvae develops in this goey mess .
The female insect dissolves and gives the pitch a beautiful amber red colour, and this is what shellac is made of. Obviously there are several steps in the process of getting a pure product, but after all shellac is nothing more than pitch and dead insects .

There are several disadvantages with shellac. Methylated spirit and other spirits will dissolve shellac, it is not very waterproof, and resistance to mechanical wear is poor (for bowmaking you polish with wax in addition to the shellac to compensate for this). It is best to mix your own shellac (with methylated spirit), as it only has a shelflife for about one year (depending on how it is stored, and you don't know that when you buy it), and if it has turned bad it is useless.
Advantages are as mentioned for sheathmaking etc - it is easy to apply, and dries fast (due to the quick evaporation of spirits). Used correctly on wood it will give one of the most beautiful finishes available :approve:

If you use it for securing a sticktang blade you need to get the shellac in flakes (not in liquid form).

And for those who wonder what happens to the male insect…….. well, he flies away, happy and satisfied to look for a new partner to make some more eggs .
GJ

[keith_beef]

Shellac is not a glue and does not work like epoxy, but can still be used to “glue” a sticktang blade into a handle. The way to do this is by melting the shellack, which will harden when cool. This was a much used method to fasten blades in old times here in Norway, and there are still people who use this method – Dave Barker is one of them. I personally prefer epoxy and have only used shellac for this purpose one or two times, and that was at least 13 years ago. Dave is therefore in a better position to tell you how this is done.

I do use shellac a lot, but only for making sheaths and in bowmaking. Shellac can be used to “seal” the colours if you dye the inside of the sheaths with leatherdyes (otherwise they might stain especially light coloured wood handles). Shellac used inside / outside a leathersheath will also stiffen the leather – useful if you are not using halftanned leather.
In bowmaking it is a classic finish, and I use it for the final finish on my wooden bows – usually applied with oil in the way of “French Polish”, and then a final polish with wax.
I have heard about the use of shellac on confectionery, but I think you will be better of by contacting a cabinetmaker or any other person who makes fine furniture. Shellac was (and still is) used as a finish for very fine furniture – the finish is known as “French Polish”. It will give the wood a beautiful shine almost like a very thin layer of highly polished glass.
There are several grades of shellac – for my bows I only use the grade known as “Recto Superfine”, but for sheaths you can use almost any grade of shellac (I use the superfine though, as that is what I buy anyway).
I guess that any shop that sells paint and supplies for cabinetmakers etc will be able to help you – if not you might try to check the magazine “Furniture and Cabinetmaking” for addresses to suppliers.

Shellac is a strange thing. It originates as a pitch substance from the Ficus lacca tree, where a small insect (Coccus lacca - some sort of bug/lice) deposits its eggs. The female insect is stuck in the substance and dies while the larvae develops in this goey mess .
The female insect dissolves and gives the pitch a beautiful amber red colour, and this is what shellac is made of. Obviously there are several steps in the process of getting a pure product, but after all shellac is nothing more than pitch and dead insects .

There are several disadvantages with shellac. Methylated spirit and other spirits will dissolve shellac, it is not very waterproof, and resistance to mechanical wear is poor (for bowmaking you polish with wax in addition to the shellac to compensate for this). It is best to mix your own shellac (with methylated spirit), as it only has a shelflife for about one year (depending on how it is stored, and you don't know that when you buy it), and if it has turned bad it is useless.
Advantages are as mentioned for sheathmaking etc - it is easy to apply, and dries fast (due to the quick evaporation of spirits). Used correctly on wood it will give one of the most beautiful finishes available :approve:

If you use it for securing a sticktang blade you need to get the shellac in flakes (not in liquid form).

And for those who wonder what happens to the male insect…….. well, he flies away, happy and satisfied to look for a new partner to make some more eggs .
GJ

Tvividr, mange tack !

You're right, that Dave is the big shellac fan here. I think he has also mentioned using dissolved shellac to harden leather sheaths.

You make wooden bows, too? Where can we see some pictures of them?


KKK.

[Tvividr]

There are some pics of my bows at my homepage www.mamut.com/gjknives - look under the subpage "Trebuer".
I recently had a major crash on the webpage, and have not had the time to rebuild the site yet (lots of piccies and text still missing - and the english version has not ben uploaded), but you will at least get an idea of what they look like.
GJ

[Ophidian]

Does anyone know how "Hot Melt" used in archery compares to shellac. Hot melt is used to hold the steel tips into the arrow shafts (alloy). I wonder if it could be used on a stick tang knife ?????

[Tvividr]

The hot melt stuff (Ferr-L-Tite) comes in rods just like ordinary hot melt glue, and you would have to carve small pieces of it and get it down the hole for the tang. Shellac is just crushed and poured down (ehhh....Dave?).
But I do think that the hot melt stuff would be the more sticky of the two, and less brittle when hardened (cooled) again.

[Dave Barker]

The hot melt stuff (Ferr-L-Tite) comes in rods just like ordinary hot melt glue, and you would have to carve small pieces of it and get it down the hole for the tang. Shellac is just crushed and poured down (ehhh....Dave?).
But I do think that the hot melt stuff would be the more sticky of the two, and less brittle when hardened (cooled) again.

There are a few things here that need to be looked at.

Firstly it is not neccessary to use the heat method to make the shellac work as glue.

If I used a burner in the current state of my work room, then there would likely be an explosion. Working with a busted hand is one thing.... cleaming is something else.

I actually use either a pestle and mortar, or old pepper mill to grind the larger shellac flakes into dust. This is easy to fill the hole with, it need to be overfull too.

Lets look at the two methods used here.

The heat method:

Shellac if filled into the tang hole. The blade is fixed into a vice so that it sits really well. the tang is heated until the tip starts to change colour... it is wise to put some damp cloth round the blade to stop heat transfer and protect the HT.

When the colour changes then the shaft is put onto the tang and pushed home. You may need to repeat this several times so that the tang goes all the way in.

The advantage of this is that it is fast! After the tang is home in the shaft, hold the blade in cold water for 3 mins or so and the blade is set.

Another advantage is that it makes the actual knife maker more aware of a tight fit. if the tang hole is too big ( with loads of space around the tang and blade at the shaft transiition) then you'll need epoxy. This may be why many people favour it.

The second method actually involves that the shellac is dissolved into a thick gloop. ( meths does this but takes a bit of time!)

Using a syringe you fill the hole completely with gloop, and then fir the tang blade as you would fit it with epoxy.

This means that you do not need a blow lamp, but it takes a lot longer for the blade to set as it ois reliant on the evaporation of the spirit. through oil treated wood, this takes some time.

The discussion as to which is best has raged for years, and it likely will rage until people forget about shellac. With shellac it is easy to remove and replace a blade if it gets damaged. This is done by warming the blade gently . The shellack softens and the blade can be removed. A new blade is fitted by adding a little new shellac to the tang hole and then warming as before. It is reusable and this is ( imho) one advantage over epoxy. Once epoxy is hardened and then warmed it is finished and the stuff that sits in the hole need physiacally removing.

Is epoxy stronger, yes most likely...it is, but then this needs to be considered when the knife is made. The chemical fixing of the blade needs to be appropriate for the task of the knife.

A ot also depends on the skill of the maker. if the maker uses a short tang ( less than 2/3 of the blade length, then epoxy would be the thing. If the tang length is 2/3 or more then shellac is great PROVIDING the hole is tightly fitting and the space around shaft, tang and blade is minimal. it is just used to fill the space around the tang.

I have unfortunately finished up my shellac, and have been forced to use epoxy for the last 6 months or so ( I don't like it, messy ****ty stuff that it is)

I have just found a new supplier in the town where I live. It costs around 25 quid per kilo, a kilo would last for many years ( epoxy is somewhat dearer and doesn't last as long!) As long as the shellac is stored relatively cold and in a dark place the deteriation is minimal.

Edit cos i forgot the bit about leather.

I don't agreee with you about the using of the shellac on the outside of a sheath though big G.

i have tried and found that this will then crack causing the sheath to look ugly! It is used a lot in a mixture with kvistlak ( knotting solution) to harden the sheaths with carved decor though. Lots of material is removed whilst carving the pattern. This too has its drawbacks, the knotting solution and the spirit actually attacks the leathers centre ( narv in noggin) and over a long period will reduce the leather to a paper type construction.

I do sometimes use it INSIDE the sheath to harden the upper part of the sheath. IF the leather reacts weird ( as it can) or if basically I measure wrong ( ok ok it happens to the best of us y`know) then using shellac inside the sheath can actually bring the sheath top in to cause a better fit ( i hate having to re measure and sew sheaths. Especially with a busted hand!


Hope this helps, you want more info? You know where I am!

Good luck!

[MushiSushi]

ohh so i see the headline "shellac" and why oh why oh why am i not surprised to see Dave's name as the last post??

always gotta have the last word don'tcha Dave :p

nice post though

[Dave Barker]

ohh so i see the headline "shellac" and why oh why oh why am i not surprised to see Dave's name as the last post??

always gotta have the last word don'tcha Dave :p

nice post though

It's something I actually know about for once.. gotta go... have to go out with thong girl.. :drrolandsitwithastiffytime!:

[Tvividr]

always gotta have the last word don'tcha Dave :p

Oh no he doesn't !
The dry flakes will not deteriorate over time (I have read about shellack flakes several hundred years old that was still usable), but the liquefied stuff will not keep for much more than a year if it is left standing in a warm place with lots of light. As Dave says, keeping it in a relatively cool and dark place will prolong the lifespan of dissolved shellac.

I agree with you Dave that excessive use of shellac on the outside of the sheath will cause cracking and make the sheath look ugly. I do not do that either, but I know that a weak solution of say 5-10 % shellac will perfectly seal the colours and NOT cause any cracking at all. The guys who carve sheaths in the traditional style use this diluted shellac and / or “celluloselakk” on the outside of their kind of sheaths. I have tried it (but do not do it all the time), and I assure you that it will not crack up at all, as long as you use a weak solution and do not use too much. Just wipe it over the sheath with a clean rag once or twice, that’s all.

If you have problems getting hold of shellac try Sløyd-Detaljer AS, Holsfjordvegen 16, 3410 Sylling. You might also try WWW Verktøy AS, Sjøhagen 2 , 4016 Stavanger. (that’s not an internettaddress, but they do have a site).
For good grades of shellac and in BIG packages (1, 3, 25 & 50 kg) you may also want to contact Ernst P. AB in Sweden. Their address is box 14235, S-400 20 Göteborg, Sweden. If you want phone numbers or website addresses I have them too.

Big G (Gerd Jorgensen) :bandit:

[MushiSushi]

always gotta have the last word don'tcha Gerd