At what Point (pivot Point) is a folder a fixed blade

[Raoul Duke]

I have been wondering now for some while About Legal EDC folders and while I eagerly anticipate the 2004 Penknife I am always thinking of a few Legal folder designs myself.

Now I usually take 3" to mean actual cutting edge but strictly speaking ( or to be on the safe side) a 3" blade is measured from the end of the handle to the blade tip taking in to account the Choil etc.

Now here is the bit I am wondering about.

The folders blade pivot point is normaly at the Front end of the handle. This hidden ( buy the handle) part of the blade is not counted in the 3" pertruding from the end of the handle)

So is that bit of steel, or blade that is part of the pivot assembly, Part of the Legal 3" blade or not?

If it IS part of the 3" then 2004 penknife, some SAK's and maybe even the Pride will be over 3" so you will need a good reason for having one.

If it is not and the Blade Steel under the handle is not counted as part or the 3" blade then.....

I can imagine a Folder with a longer handle than normal and the pivot point being set back an inch or so into the handle.....

So that when the folder is open and you grip the handle there will be two fingers covering the part of the (unsharpened) blade housed in the handle. Imagine a double (or maybee even a trebble) Choil for the front fingers to choke up on.

Personally I dont rate choils. They dont seem to stop the blade folding much for me. Maybee that is the point.
Maybee they are not supposed to stop it folding ( Legal implications)but they are just finger protection.

A Folder with a set Back Pivot would give me more confidence in say a slip joint folder knowing that two fingers were stopping the blade from accidentaly closing, rather than one choil right underneath the pivot point that just seems to push my fingers on to the blade as it closes.
In fact I would be as happy with this than as I am with a current slipjoint, maybee even happier.

So Legal Eagles. In short. How far back in the handle can the pivot screw be before the folder is concidered a fixed blade?

[Raoul Duke]

Anybody ???

[Danzo]

Sorry Raoul old son, between narsil and Chux being slightly silly I missed this.

The strict letter of the law is that it is only the cutting edge which is restricted to being 3" under S139 (1) CJA 1988

In theory ( ) you could have a nine foot long folder with only the last 3" sharpened.

In reality Ross will tell you that cops simply measure 'from the point to the joint' and regardless of choils, will do you if that is over the three inch mark.

Some interesting ideas there though, particularly on the idea of holding the blade closed.



Danzo

[Chux]

sorry. :o

I think the blade can most easily be considered to be the bit protruding from the handle, no-one will worry too much about how much is in the handle (providing it all still folds) as long as it has no offensive 'value' itself.

[Chux]

In theory ( ) you could have a nine foot long folder with only the last 3" sharpened.

Isn't that pretty much a pike?

[Chux]

Ooh, its late but my brain just kicked in and I fully grasped the question. There is a point where a simple folder turns into something akin to the Sog Revolver even if one of the blades (half the blade?) is totally blunt. If the length protruding from the handle is substantial it could be seen as sailing a bit close to being something unpleasant (acupressure tool ).

Sog seem to regard their revolver as a fixed blade.

[Raoul Duke]

Well if the Measure Point to joint you would get arrested if you did not have a valid excuse but this is not right. I woulden't mind this so much as all i am concerned with is complying with the letter of the law, not somebodys interpretation of it.

As you say Danzo the letter of the law is Sharpened 3" but even the 2004 penknife is going to be more than 3" point to joint so i guess most of us can expect a tug when we get one.

To try and illistrate what i mean (in an incredebly lame way) get a 12" rule and a Biro.
Imagine the biro is the blade and the ruler is the handle.

The pivot point for the folder at the 2" mark into the ruler.
Put the end of the biro/ blade on the 2" point
This is where the blade would pivot with 3" poking out of the end of the handle.
Now the folder closed would have a 7" handle becase with the blade closed the handle would have to be that big to house the whole blade.
With the folder open you would have 3" of Sharpened blade out or the front of the blade 2" to grip, in the handle to stop it folding on your fingers.

Now in practice i would only realy want about 1" in the handle giving you about a 5" handle or opened 9" legal folder. this is to the letter of the law 3" sharp blade that simply folds.

I hope somebody understands what i mean because i'm already doubting that explanation made any sense to anybody else but me

So in theory a 3" sharp blade with a trebble Choil and pivot set back an inch or two in the handle would be legal as it folds, but in practice the point to joint thing would land you in court and then you may get it ruled that it is a fixed blade and you are a Smart Alec with a fixed blade knife.

[ZDP-189]

Point to joint? I suppose you mean point to handle fully extended, even in a worst case interpretation.

I guess the idea the law was intended to convey was that a short blade was unlikely to reach vital organs if someone were to have an accident. Then they probably looked a a selection of knives divided them into what they considered 'potentially dangerous' vs 'innocuous' and measured. Laws abhor an undefined term, so they had to create a standard measurement: ignoring the choil, which is less likely to penetrate the body than a blade, and which can't be used to cut, is logical. Hence, the law permits a 3" cutting edge which is typically enough for utility, but less effective for martial use.

I am sure that taking the mick by making a 7" blade with a really long ricasso or loweer edge swedge will be seen through. I am also sure that a one-piece fixed blade with a folding handle that doesn't even cover the whole blade will be too.

IMO, if you want confidence that the knife won't fold on you, the best solution is to get a folder with a strong slipjoint like a Laguiole and use it properly - cutting down, rather than try to pry upwards.

[Ross]

In my experience, its simply that the sharp bit measures more than 3" for it to be an offence - simple as that.

[redline]

I wouldn't mind being arrested for carrying a 100% legal folding pocket knife with a cutting edge less than 3", because a PC who didn't understand the law added on another 1/2" for the choil.
Just think of all the new knives you could buy with the compensation.
You can't worry about how people with little understanding MAY interpret the law, just make sure you comply with what the law actually says and you won't go wrong. LESS THAN 3 INCH CUTTING EDGE!

[Tao_Shan]

I always understood that the 3" referred to the potential depth of penetration of the knife (this assumes that only the blade penetrates). A 2.5" blade with deep serrations, in theory, could have a cutting edge of greater than 3". Three inches may sound arbitary but it may have some basis in human anatomy.

[Tao_Shan]

I wouldn't mind being arrested for carrying a 100% legal folding pocket knife with a cutting edge less than 3", because a PC who didn't understand the law added on another 1/2" for the choil.
Just think of all the new knives you could buy with the compensation.
You can't worry about how people with little understanding MAY interpret the law, just make sure you comply with what the law actually says and you won't go wrong. LESS THAN 3 INCH CUTTING EDGE!

What you fail to recognise is that the UK knife law allows for legitimate users of knives to go about their business will little fear of prosecution. Flaunting what is already a reasonable law will lead to further restrictions being imposed.

Basically, it is all down to attitude.

My apologies to you if I have read your post wrong, but your attitude is not one that I agree with.

[Danzo]

I always understood that the 3" referred to the potential depth of penetration of the knife (this assumes that only the blade penetrates). A 2.5" blade with deep serrations, in theory, could have a cutting edge of greater than 3". Three inches may sound arbitary but it may have some basis in human anatomy.

I don't know if the legislation is based on anatomical principles,Tao; my suspicion is that the length was arrived at because the traditional penknife has always had a blade just under three inches and there was no desire to criminalise everyone with a Swiss Army Knife etc.

But I may be wrong!



Danzo

[Chux]

I always understood that the 3" referred to the potential depth of penetration of the knife (this assumes that only the blade penetrates). A 2.5" blade with deep serrations, in theory, could have a cutting edge of greater than 3". Three inches may sound arbitary but it may have some basis in human anatomy.

You don't need to penetrate to cause serious injury though. If penetration were the only type of injury the legislation was concerned with there may have been special dispensation included for knives with no point (ie sheepsfoot), clearly there is no such exemption.

[Raoul Duke]

I do Not want to go down this road again but everytime I seem to come up with a new idea for a legal to carry anywhere folder the topic degrades into stabbing people and such like. I do not wish to stab anybody. I dont even want to talk about it. I just want to know about Legal Safe Carry.

I wish to have a 3" folding knife that complies with the law at all times without a cast iron reason for carry as this reason could be open to interpretation, but that wont fold on me like my swiss army knife did and cut my index finger down to the bone. I Know how to cut with a slip joint, its just slipjoints fold easily and actually spring shut after a certain point. A point I dont want to be on the end of ever again.

I took another look at the 2004 penknife pics (Drool) and it looks better than I remembered with what looks like a deeper choil than the calipso Jnr and a chunkier handle. This may help in gripping the choil. I still have high hopes for it.

It may supprise some of you to know that the only knives I have in my collection are folders. The only fixed blade knives I own are kitchen knives. I have no need for a fixed blade at this time. I thought about getting a Machete from Joe for gardening but at the moment my chain saw and a can of petrol are proving effective gardening tools (but not without the occasional hazard)

I think I got an answer to my initial question but it seems that it may be a bit rocky so I will see how the 2004 pen knife is and maybe have a go at building the knife i have in mind. People say you should start with a building a fixed blade. Well as I said I dont need one so i'll just jump in to the deep end with folders when i get the chance.