3 inches/76 mm, where?

[BigShot]

I agree with Bagman.

The knife is folded purely by the action of folding - that you have to move your hand out of the way first is true of all manner of folding knife.

It would take an incredibly unreasonable judge/magistrate and the worlds most bafflingly convoluted talking from the prosecution to find otherwise I think.

[steogede]

Always felt a bit weird about carrying the svord, even with a shortened tip, as it realy wont fold when gripped, unlike the William Henry FF. so could be construed as a locker of sorts.

That really isn't something you should worry about. No sane judge would ever determine that the tang on a Svord Peasant constitutes a lock. As has been mentioned, no folding knife (unless it is unimaginably sharp) can close whilst you are gripping the handle. Also if it were considered a lock knife, then presumably that would be because tang, and the construction of the knife, is considered a locking device. If this is the case then both Svord Peasants and straight razors would be considered to be gravity knives. I can't see a judge suddenly deciding that, for the past 50 years, every barber (worth their salt) in the country has been guilty of possessing an offensive weapon in public.

[leealanr]

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

"In a recent conversation with a retired police inspector, I asked for his opinion on the 3" rule. His advice to me was to be safe, measure tip of the blade to the point where the blade meets the handle - in other words, the cutting edge + the ricasso. When I pressed on the letter of the law being "a cutting edge no more than 3" his response was that it would depend on the circumstances and the appearance of the knife whether an arrest and prosecution would take place.
Interestingly he also said that a knife with a 3" (or maybe less) and an unusually long ricasso would be probably considered as an offensive weapon. So grinding off some of the cutting edge from the handle end would be unlikely to succeed in making an illegal knife legal.
Presumably, the 3" cutting edge in the law is there in case the folding knife were used as a stabbing weapon and thus limit the depth of penetration. Any perceived attempt to get round that would require a very good lawyer to secure a not guilty in case of a prosecution".

As a retired police officer as well, I would agree with most of the above. However the element of what the person was doing at the time with the knife would also have to be considered. I also always taught that it is the cutting edge of the blade that needed to be measured for S 139 offences.

However there is always more than one piece of legislation to deal with a particular instance, so yes anything included as suggested above, a sharpened pencil, if it was "Made adapted or intended for use" could be considered an offensive weapon. Therefore if an apparently UK legal folder was in someones possession but the overall length of the blade was greater than what was what I perceived to be "normal" I would want to know a specific reason as to why the knife was so unusual and make searching enquiries into why it was.

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

Quote Originally Posted by Kniven View Post
I don't think it would require an especially good lawyer at all. Whatever a police officer says, his job ends when he hands you over to the CPS. He can take you that far, but if I were the CPS I'd forget it. Even if they did prosecute, the law is quite clear. If a part of the blade is unsharpened then it is not a "cutting edge," so it is not included in the measurement.

The regular copper is not the judge and jury.

Quite right, the regular copper is not the judge and jury. It is one of the strengths of British Democracy and long may it be so. However this misses an important point. The police officer on the ground has to make an instant decision on the information in front of them at the time. This they do after some of the best training in the world and encouragement, even in our results driven culture of today, to use a goodly measure of discretion.

However, given those circumstances, If they honestly believe that an offence has been committed and they have a power to so do, then they are perfectly entitled to make an arrest.

It is therefore in my view far better to ensure you are not in a position to be arrested and spend some time in a busy and usually quite unpleasant setting in a custody suite, before the issue is resolved than attempt to stand on a contestable point of law which would have to be resolved at a much later date.

Re: 3 inches/76 mm, where?

I stand corrected.

So if I take a slipjoint folder with a 4.5" blade and it has a 2.9" cutting edge with a 1.6" ricasso it will be OK?

Geoff, as above, I think you would be subject of some quite searching questions. The final answer would no doubt be as a result of a case stated, but is there really a desire or need to go that far?

Although it is in fact quite restrictive in UK law it does always operate on the basis of "reasonableness" and provided you have a knife which is within the spirit as ell as the actuality of the law, you use and carry it for the right reasons in the right places, there is little in reality to fear.

Stay Safe and Happy New year to you all..

Alan L.

[Xelian]

It does beg the question about the hole in the law. Friction folders, which you manually lock into place with your hand, while not being illegal by any interpretation of S 139 are still a grey area because the idea of the law is that this is supposed to stop knife crime, predominantly fatal stabbings. Being able to hold a knife open means its just as easy to stab someone with as a fixed blade.

Although the Blade length issue comes up a lot, as the law is definitely not infallible, i think it's really just best to be as pedantic as you can, while still employing common sense. Measure 3 inches up to the handle, as that is how much can effectively penetrate, if used for stabbing. A 2.5" blade is more than enough for most urban EDC tasks, and any more if necessary would allow you to carry a longer blade as it would be for a job, hobby etc.

After buying the UKPK, i'm now in two minds whether to take it out or not, obviously as a 'just in case' measure. Even though its 3" and if you're not suspicious and not an idiot you should have no problem, it still looks big. The Urban would probably be a better option if you wanted to EDC something, and it's plenty big enough.

Might have to watch out in the future, friction folders may appear on S 139 some day..

[Basemetal]

"Lock into place with your hand". Thats an oxymoron. Really not a helpful post Xelian... why muddy the water with ill thought through opinion?

[Danzo]

It does beg the question about the hole in the law. Friction folders, which you manually lock into place with your hand, while not being illegal by any interpretation of S 139 are still a grey area

No, they aren't.



As Basemetal says, please don't post uninformed opinion as fact. It makes things much more difficult for those of us who do know what we are talking about

Danzo

[Xelian]

Yes, I should have put they would be a grey area. You are right, considering the current law they are not mentioned. I shall be more careful with my wording in the future.

The main point was that the law is to prevent people from being stabbed, and a long tang friction folder would be just as easy to stab someone with, unlike a pen knife, for example (although obviously not impossible either). Not trying to make things more confusing.

Apologies for the misconstrued wording.

[Basemetal]

Yes, I should have put they would be a grey area. You are right, considering the current law they are not mentioned. I shall be more careful with my wording in the future.

The main point was that the law is to prevent people from being stabbed, and a long tang friction folder would be just as easy to stab someone with, unlike a pen knife, for example (although obviously not impossible either). Not trying to make things more confusing.

Apologies for the misconstrued wording.

No...they are not a grey area. They are folding knives capable of folding without disengaging any locking device. Pure and simple.
The law that prevents people being stabbed is effectively "Don't stab people".

This forum is for discussing sale, purchase, ownership and carriage regulations governing knives and sharps in the UK. Please stop posting anything related to assault here. There is coverage of the rationale for determining a 3" blade length as a line in the sand, but that's not something we are here to discuss.

[subwoofer]

I feel inspired to add a reply to this thread as to me the greyness of the collective reply is unsatisfactory. However what we have to look at are the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

Before adding my tuppence worth:

The matter of the spirit of the law has been covered. If a non-locking knife is modified to appear to comply with the letter of the law, but is strange in appearance having an excessively long blade for the actual cutting length this would and should lead to further investigation. If a knife is reduced in length to make it comply with the letter of the law (such as the svord) then that is fine as it has obviously been modified to make it legal, not to push the boundaries.

Also covered has been the fact that anything carried or wielded with intent to cause harm can be classed as offensive weapon even something as inoffensive as a pencil, but this is an aside really as we are discussing the legal carrying of a useful tool, not a weapon.

As for the original question, the letter of the law is quite clear, the 3" refers to the 'cutting edge' of the 'blade' quite clearly distinguishing the two concepts of a 'blade' and a 'cutting edge'.

If we retreat from our rights, in fear of incorrect interpretation of the law (though how much clearer could S139 be?) we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily. I would consider production knives the main easily available type of knife for consideration as custom knives near the limit of the law may be of unconventional design and raise questions. If a production knife is non-locking/readily fold-able and has a conventional blade design with a cutting edge less than 3", this is legal for UK EDC.

[fluffy]

If we retreat from our rights, in fear of incorrect interpretation of the law (though how much clearer could S139 be?) we are limiting ourselves unnecessarily. I would consider production knives the main easily available type of knife for consideration as custom knives near the limit of the law may be of unconventional design and raise questions. If a production knife is non-locking/readily fold-able and has a conventional blade design with a cutting edge less than 3", this is legal for UK EDC.

UKPKs should sail through Mount Pleasant.
Conventional as has a makers mark (a hole).
There is no requirement that a makers mark should prevent the knife from being opened one handed.
A weak backspring on a SAK would allow gravity deployment if the blade was held and the body of the knife flicked away (just tested this)

[Kiri]

Let's remember that the UKBA seizure of a number of UKPK is based on their incorrect assertion that they are a gravity knife. To be a gravity knife under the statutory definition the knife has to be opened by gravity or centrifugal force and then "lock" in place. Which the UKPK clearly doesnt as it matches the Harris definition for a folding knife where the knife is readily foldable at all times merely by the folding action of the blade and no secondary action like pressing a button is necessary.

The only reason UKBA has got away with it is most people don't want to risk a
potential £1500 legal bill if they lost for a £30 knife or even a £150 knife. I have absolutely no doubt that UKBA is wrong in it's classification of the UKPK as a gravity knife.

[truffers]

Hello all,

I am brand new here, so bare with me! I am a serving police officer and will happily answer any questions on points of law and how I/we as constables would deal with a given situation.

I would like to emphasize the fact that if you carry with you a knife with a blade longer than 3" lockable or not, or a sharply pointed object, and have a reasonable excuse, i.e. you are an electrician and need it for work, mechanic, scout leader etc, or a lawful purpose, i.e. most police constables carry lockable knife/multi tools in the execution of their duty, and you have never been in arrested or convicted of a knife crime or offensive weapon crime before, then you will most likely not be arrested. If you were arrested, it is even more unlikely you would be charged if your 'reasonable excuse' or 'lawful purpose' is proven, as the Crown prosecution Service don't charge if they have no chance of winning at court!

Now I would like to open a can of worms.....

As British citizens, under common law, we are to protect the Queens Peace are we not...thus a lawful excuse???

There is a test case going through the courts at this time, where a chap I know had himself arrested on purpose in possession of a friction lock baton (Offensive Weapon) and a CS Spray (A section 5 firearm). He was carrying them for the purpose of self defense under article 8 of the Bill of Rights 1689. I know he had no knife, but the same would apply if he were. It has gone to magistrates court and been past over to crown court, it is now in the depths of the court of appeal, as it should be, and where he wanted it to go, as when he is proven to be right in terms of the law, it will be binding on every single court in the land!

I am pretty peeved with the statute laws around knives, guns, weapons and self defense, which conveniently don't take into account our common law rights! But thats for another day!

Thanks for reading.

[markg87]

hi all,
i have a little information regarding the 'reasonable excuse' part of the UK knife law, whilst wild camping with a group of friends i was approached by police and questioned and then arrested and charges brought against me (2 counts of having in my possession an article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding knife with a blade not exceeding 3 inches without lawful authority or good reason) the knifes i had were a lock knife with a blade of four inches and a fixed blade knife with a blade of five inches. i plead not guilty to both the charges and the procurator fiscal decided to take me to trial at Stirling sheriff court. during my trial i explained to the sheriff that i used the knifes to construct a shelter and prepare firewood etc, the sheriff decided that this was a reasonable excuse to have the knifes in my possession in a public place. The reason i wanted to share this is to show that as long as you are using the knife for a legal purpose then there is no need to fear persecution for having such an item in your possession. Thanks for reading Mark.

[Danzo]

Now I would like to open a can of worms.....

As British citizens, under common law, we are to protect the Queens Peace are we not...thus a lawful excuse???

There is a test case going through the courts at this time, where a chap I know had himself arrested on purpose in possession of a friction lock baton (Offensive Weapon) and a CS Spray (A section 5 firearm). He was carrying them for the purpose of self defense under article 8 of the Bill of Rights 1689. I know he had no knife, but the same would apply if he were. It has gone to magistrates court and been past over to crown court, it is now in the depths of the court of appeal, as it should be, and where he wanted it to go, as when he is proven to be right in terms of the law, it will be binding on every single court in the land!

I am pretty peeved with the statute laws around knives, guns, weapons and self defense, which conveniently don't take into account our common law rights! But thats for another day!

Thanks for reading.

Hi, and welcome to BB.

I suspect you have been reading or watching material which is based on a certain very specific US libertarian analysis of the status of the original thirteen colonies in the USA.

There is a technical legal argument which suggests that the relationship between the original settlers and the settling companies of the Virginia Colony is based in UK Maritime Law of 17th Century, and contracts dependant on that Maritime Law.

This may, technically, mean that some US citizens can exclude themselves from any current legal relationship with the corporate body called the United States of America, as the contractual relationships between the settlers and the setling companies were broken by the UK settling companies prior to the Declaration of Independence, and subsequent to that Declaration of Independence have no legal authority in the US courts.

This is what gives rise to these arguments that there is a fundamental distintiction between "statute" and common" law.

However none of these arguments, as fascinating as they are for legal scholars. libertarians, anarchists and nutters, have any effect or influence on English law and our relationship with the State. The relationship between statute law and common law in this country goes back at least as far as the twelfth century.

Hope that helps!

Danzo

[earthman]

hi all,
i have a little information regarding the 'reasonable excuse' part of the UK knife law, whilst wild camping with a group of friends i was approached by police and questioned and then arrested and charges brought against me (2 counts of having in my possession an article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding knife with a blade not exceeding 3 inches without lawful authority or good reason) the knifes i had were a lock knife with a blade of four inches and a fixed blade knife with a blade of five inches. i plead not guilty to both the charges and the procurator fiscal decided to take me to trial at Stirling sheriff court. during my trial i explained to the sheriff that i used the knifes to construct a shelter and prepare firewood etc, the sheriff decided that this was a reasonable excuse to have the knifes in my possession in a public place. The reason i wanted to share this is to show that as long as you are using the knife for a legal purpose then there is no need to fear persecution for having such an item in your possession. Thanks for reading Mark.

That's a shocking story, how comes things went that far in the first place? In all honestly, why did the police question you to start with and how did you respond? Looking back on the whole situation, would/could you have done anything different to affect the outcome??