A knife by any other name...

[Martyn]

I've been wondering for a while about the Ray Mears woodlore knife, If I may, I'd like to share my musings with you. The Mears woodlore knife is a pretty basic design. Ray has commisioned what appears to be a pretty standard 4" puukko blade, made from carbon steel, but instead of the traditional puukko "stick" tang, has asked that the knife be made with a full tang with handle slabs riveted on.

There was originally some text here about the bison bushcraft version of the woodlore knife, I had erroneously thought this was the forerunner. This error has been pointed out to me and I stand humbled. My apologies to Alan Wood, who has been making this design for many, many years and I believe was the first and original "woodlore knife" and apologies to Roger Harrington of Bison Bushcraft, whos knife is distinclty different. My intent was to illustrate the similarities of form and function between these "style" of knives.

Please continue...



As mentioned, the knife itself is a pretty simple design. It looks to be essentially a simple puukko blade of the kind used for many centuries by the Lapps...



So what makes the Mears knife so different? Well, I'm not so sure that it is. I think it may be more a question of image, rather than being fuctionality different. To explain, a lot of knife collectors and makers favour the tradional bowie....



It conjours images of the heroic cowboy riding into battle against fierce indians, armed only with a winchester and his trusty bowie. A romantic image, much more so than those funny puukko's, carried by those chaps in Lappland who wear Santa costumes, with the pointy shoes and hats - no?

In reality, the overly large bowie is a ludicrously cumbersom, weighty, blade-heavy tool, possibly useful for chopping things and fighting people (tasks really better suited to axes and daggers). On the other hand, the puukko is a small, deft tool, usually less than 4" long, making it quick in the hand, accurate, excellnt for woodwork & game prepping alike. The puukko design has been refined and proven over many centuries by a people who depend on their knives to eek out their existance. It doesnt surprise me in the least, that the Ray Mears "westernised puukko" turns out to be a rather excellent tool. What does surprise me, is that it's taken so long to recognise the merits of the puukko design. In this review, the Mears knife scores a respectable 8/10, but in this review, the chesp £30 puukko scores a phenominal 10/10. That's very interesting indeed.

So, what makes the puukko so good. Well, you'd have to ask someone who uses them regularly to get a reliable and trustworthy answer, but undoubtedly, the small, relatively narrow 4" blade, combined with a substantial and ergonomic handle, makes the knife a quick and accurate tool to use. The blade geometry, also plays a part. Puukko's traditionally have only a single flat ground bevel and are usually made of laminated steel (softer on the outside for toughness, with a hard inner core) see...



By a single falt ground bevel, I mean that the bevel goes all the way to the edge, like a chisel or carpenters knife, this differes from western knives which generally have a secondary bevel right at the edge. This single bevel gives the knife an excellent "wedge" making it good for carpentry (& bushcraft?), as well as more mundane stuff like skinning game. Many of our western knives are hollow ground, like razors, which makes them hair-poppingly sharp slicers, but absolutely no "wedge" and therefore terrible whittlers. For the majority of people who buy them, this makes little difference as most are never actually used in anger. The tactical style knives, which are becomming increasingly popular, have a totally different remit, and are equally useless as woodland tools, however efficient they may be at killing people.

I must admit though, I do like the idea of a full tang construction, over the traditional stick tang. Though the Lapps dont seem to have a problem with the stick tang construction, it does make for a very "solid" feel to the knife in your hand. It makes it easy to trust it.
I'd like some feedback from people with hands on experience of the mears knife, in any of it's incarnations, and also owners of puukko's - especially regarding the blade geometry. I'm pretty sure my research is on the money, but having never owned either I'd appreciate opinions from experienced owners/users.

I'm wondering if there is an opening here, to develop a westernised puukko design. The knife does suffer from a less-than-cool image IMO (albeit unjust), and could benefit from a redesign - not the blade, that would appear to be pretty much perfect, but the handle consruction. Modern materials, such as S30V steel, epoxy resins, micarta, G10 and carbon fibre could do a lot for the image of the humble puukko. I'm sure had these materials been around 100's of years ago, the Lapps would have used them. I'm increasingly more and more surprised that there isn't a bead-blasted, S30V, micarta and G10, slab handled puukko on the market.

I'm also surprised that manufacturers havent started to take up the slack with this. Alan Wood has a 12 month waiting list, even if he works full steam, I doubt he could stop the waiting list growing.

Hmmm.

On a slightly different note, I see Helle are making some nice designs, the "Helle Winner"...



and the "Helle Fjellkniven"...



Helle have a good reputation for their laminated steel blades. In fact you can buy a blade blank...



..with a 4" laminated blade, for about a tenner from Brisa Knives, tempting eh? Even if you have never made a knife yourself.

Opinions? Feedback? I'm thinking of either making a prototype blade myself, or commisioning one. Any comments from owners/users of these blades would be appreciated.

This thread has been duplicated on Bushcraft UK to get feedback from folks who actually use these knives.

Thanks for reading,
Martyn.

[waldorf]

Hi Martyn,
I use to have an Alan Wood " Ray Mears" knife, and although £200 is a lot to spend on any knife! especially such a basic one, I`d say that that this model is worth it.
As you have mentioned the 01 blade was easy to sharpen, with the single bevel grind, but it also held an excellent edge. Another very important factor I felt, was that the handle shape was extremely
comfortable no matter which way the knife was held in the hand,
with the flared butt ( as shown in one of the above pics ) and the
full tang ( although I`m sure a properly executed stick tang is just as good or better in colder climates) increasing THIS users cofidence!.
I make no bones about this I am a big Alan Wood fan
and a knife like this only reinforce`s that opinion.
It would make a nice pass around knife?

[Colin KC]

Whilst I am raging about Martyns abuse of my fave knife I have a point to make about the "westernization" of the pukko style, in that, with the greatest of respect to Mr Mears, full tang, riveted, slab handles (unless tang, pin & slab are of the same material & bonded permanently (read welded together)) are inferior to hidden tang knives in one very important respect, YOU GET BLISTERS & SORE HANDS from the different textured & sized materials:crying: whilst the, admittedly weaker, hidden tang knife will get the for long term comfort (all other things being equal) which I'm sure will be borne out in the tales of "real users"

[MushiSushi]

YOU GET BLISTERS & SORE HANDS

You big softy girlie :240:

[Roger Gregory]

I am a big fan of the puukko. I have a few, including one with a nasty plastic handle

I also have a pile of blades from that nice man in Finland

Take a look at the Outdoor Survival forum at Knifeforums and you'll see a lot of fans of the puukko, including the Woodlore knife....

Roger

[Tony]

Whilst I am raging about Martyns abuse of my fave knife I have a point to make about the "westernization" of the pukko style, in that, with the greatest of respect to Mr Mears, full tang, riveted, slab handles (unless tang, pin & slab are of the same material & bonded permanently (read welded together)) are inferior to hidden tang knives in one very important respect, YOU GET BLISTERS & SORE HANDS from the different textured & sized materials:crying: whilst the, admittedly weaker, hidden tang knife will get the for long term comfort (all other things being equal) which I'm sure will be borne out in the tales of "real users"

Have to disagree generalised statement about the sore hands and blisters. I know lots of real very serious users that use the woodlore knife day in day out and do not suffer, I also know those that use it once in a blue moon and nor do they. Of course most people get some discomfort initially when using a new (to them) knife, but more often than not it is due to the fact their hands are not conditioned to prolonged use and any discomfort due to this would be the same with a single texture as well as multiple ones.

Now here comes my problem, because I do not know a lot about knife designing and construction I do not know if my woodlore knife really is a wonderfully designed tool, that gives you hours of hard but blister free use, or, should MR Mears be called Mr "fluke" Mears because it just happened to work out. What do you think? I know the bloke so I will let you lot decide.

Tone

[MushiSushi]

don't worry about Colin, this is what he gets up to in his spare time
pants down
and he has big soft girlie hands

[Martyn]

Hi Martyn,I use to have an Alan Wood " Ray Mears" knife, and although £200 is a lot to spend on any knife! especially such a basic one, I`d say that that this model is worth it.
As you have mentioned the 01 blade was easy to sharpen, with the single bevel grind, but it also held an excellent edge. Another very important factor I felt, was that the handle shape was extremely
comfortable no matter which way the knife was held in the hand,
with the flared butt ( as shown in one of the above pics ) and the
full tang ( although I`m sure a properly executed stick tang is just as good or better in colder climates) increasing THIS users cofidence!.
I make no bones about this I am a big Alan Wood fan
and a knife like this only reinforce`s that opinion.
It would make a nice pass around knife?

Waldorf I agree with you. Let me make it clear, that I'm in no way critical of the woodlore knife, or it's maker. Yes, £200 is a lot, but you'd be lucky to get a shapened file with a bit of rope for a handle from any known maker for £200, let alone a competant blade, so in this respect at least, the knife is cheap.

I actually think it's an excellent design - my point is that it's a very simple design, but it does owe a *lot* to the puukko - especially in the blade geometry.

I also think that it would make a brilliant passaround, getting one inside of 12 months might be a differnt matter (if anyone has one to donate to the passaround - speak now!!).

[Martyn]

Whilst I am raging about Martyns abuse of my fave knife ...

Aint nothing wrong with Bowies col, beautiful objects for sure, they are just not the most practical of knives. The average bowie is far too big to be of much use in the woods as anything other than a tool for bludgeoning through firewood. They are really fighting knives, and given that there is little fighting to be done in the English countryside these days, there usefulness is limited.

[waldorf]

QUOTE,
I also think that it would make a brilliant passaround, getting one inside of 12 months might be a different matter (if anyone has one to donate to the passaround - speak now!!).
If anyone was interested in this model as a pass around knife?
Alan Wood actually had one for sale at the CLA Fair, if he has`nt
sold it he will have it at the Midland. An added bonus? was that this knife had a stainless damascus blade and a beautiful ebony handle!
it`s a thought

[bagman]

I think that is a splendid idea for a pass round knife, however it was an "upmarket bells & wistles one" it may be out of our price range?

We actually have not had thay many people say they are in for it, only 9 I think?

[Kevin]

Martyn.


I too like both the pukko design and the Ray Mears /Woods version.

The traditional pukko design has been around for centuries (viking period?).....the pukko is in my opinion the closest descendant of early small european style scramseaxes....even the traditional leather sheath designs are similiar to early medieval finds..... (pouch style leather sheath stitched at the back with a small hanging belt loop).

You mention the slab handles of the RM knife compared to the traditional hidden tang of the pukko......As in all things, there are trade offs..............A slab handle tang (tang showing through the sides) would appear to be stronger than the hidden style tang, but one of the advantages a hidden tang has over the slab is that the tang inside the traditional pukko is sealed inside the handle so corrosion may not be such a problem , but on slab style handles, moisture could enter the gap between steel and handle material and could cause corrosion over a period of time.

A stick tang also tends to make the knife a bit lighter (if thats whats needed).......

I like the pukko styles because of the simplicity and efficiency in doing the job they are made for.
As for more modern handle materials. I did some research on pukko knives a couple of months ago and I am sure I came across military style pukko with modern man made handles.

Kevin.

[Alick]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to say hi to everyone as this is my first post on british blades, then add a couple of comments to the debate.

I bought a mears/wood knife from the Dec 2002 production run without ever having handled this model. Build quality is excellent, feel very solid, and blade shape very simple and workmanlike. The scales on mine are figured maple which is as tough as old boots and I can tell they've been treated with sanding sealer to prevent moisture entering the end grain. Finish is very smooth. With such durable wood and fine finish, I doubt the contrast between scales and brass rivets will ever cause a problem.

Overall package with an excellent sheath is worth the £200 IMHO .

The one thing I'm unsure about for long term heavy use is the shape of the grip. It is substantial where gripped by the first and second fingers, swelling into the palm, but then there is an abrupt narrowing in width for the third and little fingers. This does cause a pressure point in the centre of the hand, and reduces the grip available from the 3rd and little fingers. I suspect I'll end up reshaping the middle of the handle. Try before you buy.

Re. the Hella and other pukko knives, Martyn makes an important point about the laminated steel used in these. As a hobby woodworker, many years ago I picked up a little knife by Frosts of Mora in Sweden. 3inch laminated blade, only half an inch deep at most set into a really meaty handle. See item 105 on http://www.swedishknives.com/woodcarve.htm These only cost a few pounds but the steel takes and holds a razor edge. They are incredible for rough as well as fine carving. Laminated blades and japanese waterstones can redefine your idea of sharpness.

Cheers, Alick
(microtech, nealy, assorted spydies, wave...)

[bagman]

Welcome to our little band Alick and thansk for the input.

Did you get the neck or the belt sheath with your woodlore knife?

[Dave Barker]

The grind on a hidden tang or Pukko( actually the name given by the saami people) is indeed useful in many ways. you can do preety much everything with it apart from use it as a screwdriver! The sammi have knives in 3 sizes, one used for indoors, one for skinning and then the big one for use as a machette.

A hidden tang knife is not necessarily weaker than full tang for a number of reasons.

Firstly the hole is usually made very tight around the blade and the blade should actually enter the shaft about 2-3 mm. There is usually less than a half millimeter gap between the blade and the shaft entry point.

The tang is usually not less than 2/3 of the blade length, and is conially shaped to a point at the end. Most shafts are fixed by epoxy or shellack and the blade is fastened to a vise, before the shaft is hammered into place. This means that the tang is both glued and " nailed into the inside of the shaft and there is only one glued joint.

There is also the possibility of having a through going tang, that is fixed by a button or rivit at the other end of the shaft.

For shafts made up of several differen materials the tang is glued into each piece before the shaft is shaped.

They are indeed light and there have been knives found in norway that are hundreds of years old and the blade tang is still firmly in place.

The blades from Helle are nice although are a little too thick for my personal liking, that said I have both a harding blade and a hellefisk blade in the knives I use for fishing etc. These are stainless.

The Pukko blade is generally slender and even a blade of 12 cm can look elegant if the smith knows what he is doing, they are laminated which also means that they are capeble o holding an extremely sharp edge that is easy to maintain.

The helle shafts are unfortunately not always so well finished ( sanding wise) and I have found them a little rough before. That said they are extremely comfortable to use.

Until you use and or have made a pukko it is quite hard to give a real comparison though.