French knife law - reality check

[Noddy]

Before we all take sides with Brigadier whatsit,

Have to say I never took his side at all in this The way I filled in the gaps myself is that, on being asked about the knife, he turned it a self righteous nasty and opinionated man and the present constabulary reeled in what slack they might ordinarily have been prepared to give him. But that's just me adding local colour.

[Martyn]

Ok, maybe not in so many words but that's how this whole thread has made me feel,...I'm totally out of line for merely suggesting that it could have been.

The problem is you are always banging the same drum. It's always the bloody system, or the bastard coppers. Sometimes it is, but definitely not nearly as often as you want to believe. Have you considered the chap decided to confess because he was guilty? perhaps he took the caution under advice from a lawyer? We just don't know anything, except he confessed. I doubt it was beaten out of him. The law is never black and white and the answer to the question "is this knife legal for me to carry?" will always be "it depends".

[earthman]

Martyn, just wanted to say, I feel that some of your comments are a tad unfair, I've never slated the system or the Police like that, certainly didn't mean any posts to come across like that.

Apart from the other suggestions as to how/why these cases occur, the possibility of the Police making the mistake is just my suggestion.

[Danzo]

Martyn, just wanted to say, I feel that some of your comments are a tad unfair, I've never slated the system or the Police like that, certainly didn't mean any posts to come across like that.

Apart from the other suggestions as to how/why these cases occur, the possibility of the Police making the mistake is just my suggestion.

Gods, give me strength.....





The police make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes. We all know that everyone, in every walk of life makes mistakes. And nobody can stop people making mistakes. What is your problem with that fundamental statement of human nature?


I despair, I really do......





Danzo

[Martyn]

Martyn, just wanted to say, I feel that some of your comments are a tad unfair, I've never slated the system or the Police like that, certainly didn't mean any posts to come across like that.

Apart from the other suggestions as to how/why these cases occur, the possibility of the Police making the mistake is just my suggestion.

Yes it could have been the cops fault, but it could have been mind control by the Martians. Why jump to the conclusion of a bent/ignorant cop when there is virtually no reliable information? Do you not think that is a tad unfair? All we know is that the chap confessed.

[Danzo]

Earthman and I have been exchanging pm's and we are are friends, I think. I hope so.

He's a good guy, I'm me.

Danzo

[earthman]

Earthman and I have been exchanging pm's and we are are friends, I think. I hope so.

He's a good guy, I'm me.

Danzo

Well thank you Dan, I'm very pleased that we have managed to work things out,.....and you are indeed a nice guy too.

OK, let's get this thread back on track.

[earthman]

I can state with absolute certainty that the Edc rules apply in full on board the Eurostar.

I don't suppose you know exactly when these rules came into play on the Eurostar? Would they have been in force from day one??

That may explain why some people have had different experiences over the years??

[Martyn]

That may explain why some people have had different experiences over the years??

Different people will always have different experiences because everyone is different, everyone's circumstances are different and the officials handling these circumstances are different and they will have different criteria for discretion.

[parbajtor]

I don't suppose you know exactly when these rules came into play on the Eurostar? Would they have been in force from day one??

That may explain why some people have had different experiences over the years??

The British EDC laws have been in operation from day 1. How they have been interpreted and enforced has changed dependent (it would appear) on news headlines.
The worst state of affairs (for us) would be French EDC laws enforced by British LEO's, because that would mean the most restrictive laws enforced with no "discretion" on the part of the arresting officer.
As has been stated before, should a British officer be put in the position of being unsure whether the persons "reason" for carrying something which may or may not be a "restricted item" is good, they WILL arrest and let someone higher up the food chain have the "headache". This tends to happen less with "les flics" because they tend to enforce on the suspects behaviour rather than whether an item is "illegal". Neither system is infallible and both may be abused.

[Chui]

I think it's all a lottery - with the only real controlling factor being how you conduct/present yourself to the 'authority' of the moment.

Have been on a few cruises - a year or so ago as we approached the security check-in (Southampton), I asked an officer if I could take my Laguiole on board - wasn't a problem.

Just a few weeks ago, we were boarding in Piraeus (a US registered ship) and they noticed my MM FF in the suitcase - totally UK legal. They would not hear a word from me.........I was allowed it back as I went down the gangplank as we finally and completely left the ship at the end of the cruise.

There's no telling is there sometimes, at least I got this back. And, I could find no small print to say what their policy was, however, once one security officer asked another, who asked another - I was done for. Confiscated. (but my mates had their SAK's, not stopped or questioned)

[chewie]

As has been stated before, should a British officer be put in the position of being unsure whether the persons "reason" for carrying something which may or may not be a "restricted item" is good, they WILL arrest and let someone higher up the food chain have the "headache".

Disagree. Not supported at all in my experience of discretion. Furthermore, if discretion is exercised, how would anyone get a headache from not doing any paperwork?

[parbajtor]

Disagree. Not supported at all in my experience of discretion. Furthermore, if discretion is exercised, how would anyone get a headache from not doing any paperwork?

The only discretion within S.139 revolves around the question of "good reason". The question of whether a knife qualifies for the exemption is plainly stated in law and not really that subject to "interpretation". Individual LEOs may not be fully aware of the implications of the law and try to enforce it erroneously, but the offense either has (or hasn't in the case of an exempt knife) been commited due to your possession of it in a public place. Your demeanour may or may not influence whether the LEO is aware of you having commited the offence, but once (s)he suspects or is made aware that the offence has been committed, there is no way they can ignore it. My understanding is that a French policeman (while their knife laws are arguably stricter) may very well say nothing about discovering a locking folder on your person and hand it back without comment, simply because your behaviour appeared to be that of a responsible adult.
I'm not quite sure what your second point is, the "headache" comes from the desk sergeant having to "judge" whether the knife is exempt from S.139 (because it is a non-locking sub 3" folder) as opposed to the arresting officer. The discretion to enforce or not doesn't come into it.

EDit: As an aside to this, (unrelated) evidence discovered while searching/questioning a suspect is not admissable in court. E.g. A bag full of "workers tools" ("going equipped" in the UK) discovered while "helping" a driver replace one of his indicator bulbs would not be admissable as evidence per se and the gendarme would have to permit the driver to go his way with his possessions. It would not prevent him from following and seeing if the driver did intend to burgle someone as the "suspicion" would have been raised by the 1st stop.

[parbajtor]

To further illustrate the difference between a civil code and common law and using the above example of a routine traffic stop ending in an arrest for "going equipped".
In the UK, the LEO could stop the "perp" for a broken tail light and in the course of helping him change the bulb, "discover" the bag of tools. In the circumstances of driving around late at night etc. this should enough circumstantially to get a conviction in a magistrates court.
In France (& most of Europe) under the same circumstances, the LEO would have to describe to the Magistrate/judge that the "perp" was acting in a suspicious manner and the LEO suspected him of "casing a few houses". The routine stop was to question the "perp" on his suspicious behaviour using the broken tail light as an excuse so as to not arouse suspicion. The discovery of the tools then became the evidence to corroborate the LEO's initial suspicions.
Can you see the difference? A stop & search, "fishing" for evidence that the suspect was up to no good, would see any "illegally" collected evidence "thrown out of court"in France. I'm not sure how "pedantic" they'd be if a dead (obviously by foul play) body was found in the boot, because that would stretch the cause of "natural justice" to the limit. But the general principle is sound.

[chewie]

The only discretion within S.139 revolves around the question of "good reason".

Utter codswallop.

You clearly don't know what discretion is, which is why your previous statement was inaccurate.