Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Buckinghamshire
    Posts
    5,234
    Rep Power
    21

    Double quenching

    I have noticed some very nice hamons or quench lines on blades that have been multiple quenched. Could this be done with clay backing? I.e. to heat and quench in the Japanese style then wait until it cool and repeat.

    What would be the effect?
    Would there be any difference if you used different quenchants with different cooling rates?

    thanks in advance
    Beautiful things don't ask for attention.
    http://farquharforge.com

  2. #2
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Farquhar
    I have noticed some very nice hamons or quench lines on blades that have been multiple quenched. Could this be done with clay backing? I.e. to heat and quench in the Japanese style then wait until it cool and repeat.

    What would be the effect?
    Would there be any difference if you used different quenchants with different cooling rates?

    thanks in advance

    My thoughts......

    Its likely that the clay would only stay on for one quench before begining to disintegrate and fall off.......

    Different quenchants?......dont know. But a water quench seems to be preferred for Japanese style because its a fast quench and gives a better hamon than one done in a slower quench like oil.........but if your using water, then expect failures (blade cracks).

    As with everything..there comes a time when you have to experiment yourself...... see what happens......and learn
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    Forgot to say that on some of my first knives..I could get as many as three hamon lines laying on top of each other in just one quench....looked like tiger stripes.

    Tai Goo was also developing a quench in a vibrating tank which gave wavy lines and rainbow colors.
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Buckinghamshire
    Posts
    5,234
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Double quenching

    I tend to use refactory clay and its a bugger to get off as its quite stuck on after the first quench. Also it (the clay) could theoreticaly be replaced as it does leave tell tale marks of where bare steel was and where clay was.

    I suppose i just have to give it a bash.
    Beautiful things don't ask for attention.
    http://farquharforge.com

  5. #5
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Farquhar
    I tend to use refactory clay and its a bugger to get off as its quite stuck on after the first quench. Also it (the clay) could theoreticaly be replaced as it does leave tell tale marks of where bare steel was and where clay was.

    I suppose i just have to give it a bash.
    Great...Give it a go and tell us the results.

    My clay begins to break down after one quench..
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  6. #6
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    As the clay suggests where the hamon is going to be, and the thickness of the spread will also decide the pattern...............so doing multiple quenches with the same clay,what are you expecting to happen?
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Buckinghamshire
    Posts
    5,234
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Double quenching

    Not many things in life are as good as narking you off, than spending hours anealing and griding and shaping then backing in clay then cracking the steel in water.

    As soon as it happens its tools down and back home. I hate it when it happens.
    Beautiful things don't ask for attention.
    http://farquharforge.com

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Buckinghamshire
    Posts
    5,234
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Double quenching

    Quote Originally Posted by coutel
    As the clay suggests where the hamon is going to be, and the thickness of the spread will also decide the pattern...............so doing multiple quenches with the same clay,what are you expecting to happen?
    a more pronounced hamon was the idea. or move the clay and get one hamon over the other?

    Ie do one quench with the clay high then remove the clay or just add some more so the line is lower so you get a double hamon....

    this is getting complicated
    Beautiful things don't ask for attention.
    http://farquharforge.com

  9. #9
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Farquhar
    Not many things in life are as good as narking you off, than spending hours anealing and griding and shaping then backing in clay then cracking the steel in water.

    As soon as it happens its tools down and back home. I hate it when it happens.
    Unfortunately..thats life ...got to take the rough with the smooth.
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  10. #10
    VIP Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    in my dreams
    Posts
    4,992
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: Double quenching

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Farquhar
    a more pronounced hamon was the idea.
    You cant get much more pronounced than Don Foggs hamons...or look closer to home and see Jon Barons.......Quenching is one thing....the skill is the right technique to bring it out and show it .......
    ...formerley known as "coutel".

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The scrub-steppe...
    Posts
    1,937
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Double quenching

    With water quenching, timing is everything. If you're not cracking blades, you aren't making and quenching very many.

    Try steels that are low in hardenability. By this I mean give serious thought to abandoning any alloy that contains significant amounts of manganese. This is the one element that interferes with hamon development because it's in the steel in the quantity it is to make it foolproof to heat treat by somebody working for minimum wage. Not that it can't be done with 1084, but what a learning curve.

    Try mixing some simple clay in the refractory to thin out the mix some. It's easier to get off the blade afterward.

    Some time ago there was a discussion about "double hamon" on one of the nihonto lists. You can have multiple lines on a blade from section thickness alone as the mixed material shows bands that contain differing ratios of pure martensite through pure pearlite/ferrite etc. Multiple bands are not the result of multiple dips in whatever quenchant. Once the blade is below the nose of the TTT curve, whatever shades are in the blade is there for keeps. If you reclay and reheat, it all goes into solution again and you'll get a new hamon. Some sword aficionados believe that you can see a phase change in a sword that has been rehardened, I'm not so sure. But, a lot of nihonto were piled up and burned after the war and I'm sure that enterprising souls obtained the wreckage and tried to reheattreat them.

    I personally do not believe this has anything to do with Mystery or Magic or the Full Moon or vibrations whether inside or outside the hand of the maker. Your practice may vary. I routinely get multiple bands of hamon on most of the blades I do, seven, maybe eight on the last homemade steel (kodai) I did. I'll have to get a pic up.

    If you want to try two different quenchants...and are feeling gutsy...have a tank of cool water and a tank of your favorite oil close together. Just a second or second and a half in the water to set the edge and then into the oil to finish the cool down. Nice hamon, no clay. The line tends to be straightish but it will stand out on a polished blade and achieves somewhat the same effect without having to mess with mud. Remember timing is everything, you're going to crack some learning this one.

    I'd rather just get one or two really bitchin lines like Don does but my stuff is not like his. Make more blades.
    Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if you look at it right...

 

 

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •